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Eastern European Hoardes on The Way

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245

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    #32
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Nodin wrote: »
    Well done. However your side lost, and by some margin.

    Take comfort in the fact that there are people in Spain, France, Denmark and the Netherlands who are probably none too happy about Irish citizens with criminal records being able to arrive on their shores either.

    Thanks. I take no comfort from that fact either as I don't believe criminals of any nationality should be allowed to roam abroad. The situation that appears to prevail in Spain is a long standing annoyance to me.


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    #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Thanks. I take no comfort from that fact either as I don't believe criminals of any nationality should be allowed to roam abroad. The situation that appears to prevail in Spain is a long standing annoyance to me.


    Excellent.

    Just to get back on track though, whats any of this to do with the topic again?


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    #34
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Thanks. I take no comfort from that fact either as I don't believe criminals of any nationality should be allowed to roam abroad. The situation that appears to prevail in Spain is a long standing annoyance to me.

    So only pure, innocent people should be allowed to travel? Break the law when you're 18 and that's it you are stuck in your own country for life?


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    #35
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So only pure, innocent people should be allowed to travel? Break the law when you're 18 and that's it you are stuck in your own country for life?

    Pure, innocent non-Romanians and non-Bulgarians, apparently. Possibly being Romanian or Bulgarian is some kind of crime in itself?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #36
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So only pure, innocent people should be allowed to travel? Break the law when you're 18 and that's it you are stuck in your own country for life?

    I think you know that's not what I'm saying but I won't derail the thread any further as Nodin has spoken. :rolleyes:


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    #37
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I think you know that's not what I'm saying but I won't derail the thread any further as Nodin has spoken. :rolleyes:

    the OP is about restrictions on working.....it has nothing to do with wider immigration or freedom of movement


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Nodin wrote: »
    Ireland has had restrictions on who can access welfare payments from the beginning.
    Hush you with your facts. We're talking about immigration here. Facts have no place in this discussion.


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    #39
    magma69
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭magma69


    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/#.UpYpv8RdWAk

    Stats there showing immigration for the last 5 years. 455,000 in 2008 to 118,000 in 2013 from EU 12 countries. Although there was a rise of 15,000 compared to last year, I don't think it's time for panic stations. There's far more appealing countries than Ireland.


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    #40
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Hush you with your facts. We're talking about immigration here. Facts have no place in this discussion.

    Just blind complacency allowed here, full steam ahead....


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    #41
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Just blind complacency allowed here, full steam ahead....


    "blind complacency" to what, exactly? You might be good enough to outline your argument fully.


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    #42
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Just blind complacency allowed here, full steam ahead....

    Who is being complacent and what are they being complacent about?


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    #43
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    We already have serious unemployment here and no need of further workers.

    You do realise that a country can have both high unemployment and a need for immigrant workers?


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    #44
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    I'm sure they'll be delighted to come here and take all the non-existent jobs.


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    #45
    todolist
    Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭todolist


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    You do realise that a country can have both high unemployment and a need for immigrant workers?
    Most Eastern European workers her are unskilled.Insane allowing that while the natives are choosing to stay at home and collect welfare.


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    #46
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    todolist wrote: »
    Most Eastern European workers her are unskilled.Insane allowing that while the natives are choosing to stay at home and collect welfare.

    Funny you claim that, when I worked in construction I met 2 engineers, 1 micro biologist, a dentist and a living breathing actual ROCKET SCIENTIST! All working as labourer's because the money working construction here was better than doing their own jobs back in Poland (scientist was actually from Estonia). Hardly unskilled imo but just paid better here and willing to do the work.


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    #47
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    creeper1 wrote: »
    Make no mistake this free movement of people rule that the EU has is very detrimental to low skilled workers. Maybe even all workers in western Europe.
    It certainly hasn't been detrimental to me. I like that I've been able to come and settle in Germany. Germany however has in recent years begun sending benefit tourists home. We need to police the situation tightly and actually deport people who have come to Ireland to claim benefits.

    To be honest we need total reform of the welfare system so that someone who has never paid in is entitled to (almost) nothing. If we did that, not only would it have positive effects with our own population with the old sticky mattress syndrome it would also make benefit tourism pointless.


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    #48
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    murphaph wrote: »

    To be honest we need total reform of the welfare system so that someone who has never paid in is entitled to (almost) nothing. If we did that, not only would it have positive effects with our own population with the old sticky mattress syndrome it would also make benefit tourism pointless.


    That's more or less the way it is presently with EU nationals and has been for many years.


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    #49
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Nodin wrote: »
    That's more or less the way it is presently with EU nationals and has been for many years.
    Yes but once said national has been paying in for a year they get full entitlements to benefits at the same levels as someone who's been paying PRSI for 30 years. That's not fair. Benefits should reflect how much social insurance you've actually paid. That should be the case for all, EU migrants or our own.


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    #50
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    murphaph wrote: »
    Yes but once said national has been paying in for a year they get full entitlements to benefits at the same levels as someone who's been paying PRSI for 30 years. That's not fair. Benefits should reflect how much social insurance you've actually paid. That should be the case for all, EU migrants or our own.

    Hm, but wouldn't that affect recent graduates pretty badly though. It would be a waste to pay for their eduacation and then force them to emmigrate almost immeadiately as their is no jobs and no dole to support them while they search. Although probably still better than the current situation where graduates get dole for a while and then still have to emigrate due to a lack of work.


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    #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    murphaph wrote: »
    Yes but once said national has been paying in for a year they get full entitlements to benefits at the same levels as someone who's been paying PRSI for 30 years. That's not fair. Benefits should reflect how much social insurance you've actually paid. That should be the case for all, EU migrants or our own.


    There is a residency requirement.

    Payments must be made over 18 months, not a year.


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    #52
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    As a former 'immigrant' of Australia, New Zealand, USA (admitedly illegally) and some time spent in Wales, I think it would be highly hypocritical of me to get up in arms at the thought of people from other countries wishing to better themselves here.

    Granted, I would have no time for the beggars/robbers of marauding gangs (of which I won't mention their name) but foir the rest, wanting work and a better life, tear away.

    We Irish sometimes forget the tin we were baked in when it comes to people coming to our shores for work.


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    #53
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Riskymove wrote: »
    They are in the EU and can come here freely

    The "restrictions" mentioned above included that they have to live here for a year before being able to work. As mentioned this were dropped earlier this year

    There were only 450 or so applications for a work permit in recent years from residents of these countries.

    In our current climate, its unlikely we will see big numbers coming here for work.

    This bit would be true.


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    #54
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    There are a lot of Romanians washing cars these days. You can get the car washed for €4 or €5. I have never seen an Irishman wash a car for money. The Irishman would choose welfare over washing cars. That is a problem for our welfare system and society in general. If we are importing workers because the locals won't do the work then that is bad for the state finances. What happens when the Romanian car washer has a year done and decides that he would like to draw the dole now instead of busting his balls washing cars... bring in yet more immigrants to do the work??


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    #55
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,227 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    woodoo wrote: »
    What happens when the Romanian car washer has a year done and decides that he would like to draw the dole now instead of busting his balls washing cars...
    The "Romanian car washer" will be sorely disappointed, assumed that's his first year in the state which you appear to be implying.


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    #56
    creeper1
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭creeper1


    Some of the Eastern European workers are extremely hard working and will suffer all kinds of privations to make a bit of dough. Twenty living in a two bedroom house you name it they'll do it. I don't doubt this! It is a negative for us because it keeps wages down.

    Sure if you are some exploitative business owner then it's good news. Most of us aren't.

    Do remember that Romanians have a large gypsy population and they will resort to begging more readily than other nationalities in my humble opinion.

    A lot of them are unrefined, using streets as toilets.

    For a sneak preview of what it'll be like in Ireland see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNEFigjmLvY


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    #57
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    Ireland has had restrictions on who can access welfare payments from the beginning.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Hush you with your facts. We're talking about immigration here. Facts have no place in this discussion.

    By welfare you mean Job Seekers Benefit or Jobs Seekers allowance or are you referring to the entire welfare system which includes payments from the HSE. Because AFAIK there can be discretionary payments outside the normal rules.


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    #58
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    By welfare you mean Job Seekers Benefit or Jobs Seekers allowance or are you referring to the entire welfare system which includes payments from the HSE. Because AFAIK there can be discretionary payments outside the normal rules.


    I'd research discretionary payments before going down that route. Suffice to say its not what you think it is.


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    #59
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    creeper1 wrote: »
    Some of the Eastern European workers are extremely hard working and will suffer all kinds of privations to make a bit of dough. Twenty living in a two bedroom house you name it they'll do it. I don't doubt this! It is a negative for us because it keeps wages down.

    Sure if you are some exploitative business owner then it's good news. Most of us aren't.

    Do remember that Romanians have a large gypsy population and they will resort to begging more readily than other nationalities in my humble opinion.

    ......your humble opinion seems a tad pointed yet decidedly vague tbh.
    creeper1 wrote: »
    A lot of them are unrefined, using streets as toilets.

    For a sneak preview of what it'll be like in Ireland see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNEFigjmLvY

    Your video refers to people living homeless on the streets of London, not Romanian immigrants. Being homeless means not having access to the usual facilities. It strikes me that your distortion of the situation is xenophobic.


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    #60
    M5
    Registered Users Posts: 10,161 ✭✭✭✭M5


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Funny you claim that, when I worked in construction I met 2 engineers, 1 micro biologist, a dentist and a living breathing actual ROCKET SCIENTIST! All working as labourer's because the money working construction here was better than doing their own jobs back in Poland (scientist was actually from Estonia). Hardly unskilled imo but just paid better here and willing to do the work.

    Emigrant populations tend to be more educated than their hosts. Simple reason being that emigrants are usually educated.

    I can second you on your point. The vast majority of the eastern Europeans I know have degrees, many have masters and the odd PHD has been noted!


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    #61
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    bumper234 wrote: »
    This always makes me laugh.

    What about all of those foreign nationals hordes that are swarming to Australia, America and Canada....you know the ones....from Ireland:rolleyes:

    I don't think that's a particularly applicable analogy. And I'm currently working abroad, and glad of the opportunity. However, I was recruited for my position, and am here because my host country doesn't have enough people with my particular skill set. Should that change, I'll be out on my arse.

    Both Australia and Canada are crying out for suitably qualified immigrants to fill essential positions, and are actively ecouraging immigration. None of the three countries you mentioned have an open-door policy. So the comparision isn't at all valid.

    I have no issue with such a policy. However, I do think that there should be some restriction on social welfare benefits. Perhaps a 3 month waiting period as outlned by Cameron? And I definitely believe that serious reform is needed so that Irish and non-nationals who refuse employment are cut off from further benefits.


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