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First hons degee in UCC = 70%, UL = 85%

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  • 28-05-2013 1:11am
    #1
    Dr Nic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭


    Is this correct?
    3.4 out of 4 is 85% right?
    Anyone any comments? Surely this is ridiculous inequality??


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    #2
    Dr Nic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Dr Nic


    It seems rcsi are the same as ucc - 70%, prob most colleges are. How the flip is this fair? Its 8 years since ive done my degree in UL and i didnt know this. Do employers know that a first hons student in UCC for example may score upto 4.75% less than a pass degree student in UL. 5% average is huge! This has serious implications for job prospects, gamsat applications etc. How has it not been challenged?

    Fine have the 85% cutoff but call it a 'higher first' or something...


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    #3
    scheister
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭scheister


    you add can DIT to that list aswel as far as i can remember its 70% with them for a 1.1


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    #4
    damoth
    Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭damoth


    The UL system cannot be directly compared to everyone else... 3.4 QCA does not equal 85% average in exams.

    Firstly, check what grade 3.4 corresponds to - A1, A2, B1, B2 etc.

    Second, check what percentage band that grade actually is...

    I don't know the exact answers to the above questions (and I think the percentage bands used for each grade might even vary between departments) but I'd expect the answer to be much the same as the other universities.


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    #5
    Dr Nic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭Dr Nic


    Yes it absolutely can be compared. And this is the problem. No1 outside of ul seems to understand and when you claim your grade is equal to whatever in whatever degree, no1 believes you... 3.4 is a beter than b1 average
    damoth wrote: »
    The UL system cannot be directly compared to everyone else... 3.4 QCA does not equal 85% average in exams.

    Firstly, check what grade 3.4 corresponds to - A1, A2, B1, B2 etc.

    Second, check what percentage band that grade actually is...

    I don't know the exact answers to the above questions (and I think the percentage bands used for each grade might even vary between departments) but I'd expect the answer to be much the same as the other universities.


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    #6
    damoth
    Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭damoth


    I think this gets really messy because different departments can use different grading bands...

    Here's two I found listed when searching the UL forum on boards...

    If you go by the first one, an A2 average is 70% while for the second one it's 75%.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63031323
    A1 First Honours - 4.00 75+%
    A2 First Honours - 3.60 70-74%
    B1 Honours 2.1 - 3.20 65-69%
    B2 Honours 2.1 - 3.00 60-64%
    B3 Honours 2.2 - 2.80 55-59%

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73221697
    It varies based on the Faculty. For the KBS, the new grading bands are:
    A1 80%+
    A2 75-79
    B1 70-74
    B2 65-69
    B3 60-64


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    #7
    ProfanityURL
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ProfanityURL


    Dr Nic wrote: »
    Is this correct?
    3.4 out of 4 is 85% right?
    Anyone any comments? Surely this is ridiculous inequality??

    The grading standard is generally higher in UL than other universities but not that high. A 3.4 qca roughly corresponds to a B1/A2 average (B1 = 3.2, A2 = 3.6) so 75%/80% average. The grade bands vary for each department, although I think they are trying to standardise them, but in general 70% in the Life Sciences department gets you a B2, so 70% average in UL would only give you a 2.1 while in most other colleges its a 1.1. If you get 85% in an exam you get an A1 which contributes 4.0 towards your qca but its not necessary to get an 85% average to get a 1.1. Its still a balls though because a 1.1 degree from Trinity will usually be held in higher regard by employers even though the grading standard is lower. I think its all part of ULs attempt to climb the university rankings as the grading standard for achieving 1.1s is something the reviewers look at.


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    #8
    ProfanityURL
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ProfanityURL


    Actually does anyone know the grading bands for the physics department? Or the Science and Engineering department?


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    #9
    Darth Frodo
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Darth Frodo


    Just going off Joe Meehan's Exam this year.

    A1 - 80
    A2 - 75
    B1 - 70
    B2 - 65
    B3 - 60
    .
    .
    .


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    #10
    Darth Frodo
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Darth Frodo


    Dr Nic wrote: »
    Yes it absolutely can be compared. And this is the problem.

    No it can't!! QCA is not calculated by simply dividing and multiplying as you seem to have done. It depends on your letter grade among other things.

    Simply look at the attachment; You can clearly see that a 1:1 (3.4) is a B1~A2 average. So now if you look at the departmental grading schemes, then you can see that that ranges from 65~75. So on average you'r looking to get 70% maybe a few 75s to get a 1:1. Which is nothing like the 85 you're divide by 4 multiply by 100 maths lead you to.


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    #11
    ProfanityURL
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ProfanityURL


    Darth Frodo wrote: »
    No it can't!! QCA is not calculated by simply dividing and multiplying as you seem to have done. It depends on your letter grade among other things.

    Simply look at the attachment; You can clearly see that a 1:1 (3.4) is a B1~A2 average. So now if you look at the departmental grading schemes, then you can see that that ranges from 65~75. So on average you'r looking to get 70% maybe a few 75s to get a 1:1. Which is nothing like the 85 you're divide by 4 multiply by 100 maths lead you to.

    Darth Frodo has it right.


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    #12
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    Dr Nic wrote: »
    Is this correct?
    3.4 out of 4 is 85% right?
    Anyone any comments? Surely this is ridiculous inequality??


    Speaking as a UCC graduate. Our dept head told us no one in any of the exams they mark gets over 80% and rarely over 75%. We were graded on a bell curve. I would imagine UL courses marked on a curve also.
    a 1.1. is a 1.1.


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    #13
    Polar Ice
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Polar Ice


    Comparisons between Universities, specifically looking at percentages or letter grades, is complicated. In this case, you can not directly compare percentages, as they may correspond to different grade descriptions in other Universities. The same applies to comparing percentages in the same university between different departments. Generally speaking, qualitative work shouldn't be assigned a percentage, where as quantitative work should be allocated a percentage.

    If you look at a higher level, comparing a QCA/GPA between one university and another, it can be dangerous to directly compare without an understanding of what individual values mean.

    When it comes to letter grades (A,B,C,etc...) UL uses a relatively small degree of grades. There are 8 possible passing grades (A1,A2,B1,B2,B3,C1,C2,C3) where as other universities may have significantly more (UCD has 12 passing letter grades). Letter grades may have different descriptions and meanings. In one place one letter grade might have one meaning and in another place it might have a completely different meaning.


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    #14
    Printer
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Printer


    I can't find the original Irish Times article from October 2012 but here is an excerpt from DCU's College Review showing that UL is the hardest University to obtain a 1.1 or 2.1:

    "Trinity College Dublin (TCD) and University College Cork (UCC) awarded the highest proportion of first-class honours last year with 18% of the graduating classes in those colleges achieving top marks.

    NUI Galway and the University of Limerick (UL) awarded the lowest proportion of firsts with just 14% of students awarded the top grade.

    The proportions of students graduating with upper second-class honours (2.1) degrees also varied. An average of 56% of TCD graduates left college with a 2.1, while 51% of UCC graduates graduated with a 2.1 degree.

    Almost half of UCD graduates achieved second class honours and DCU awarded a similar proportion. The national average of second-class honours was 47%. UL awarded the lowest proportion with just 36%."

    Here is the article:
    http://thecollegeview.com/2012/10/31/dcu-students-more-likely-to-graduate-with-a-first-class-honours-degree/


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    #15
    marquez
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭marquez


    I asked the IED at UL about the GPA equivalents of the honours degrees, and here what they said:
    QCA of 2.60 is a 2h2, 3.00 is a 2h1 and 3.40 is a 1h1.

    But this is the local equivalents actually. For international students, the equivalents are like this, as they said:
    3.00 is a 2h2, 3.30 is a 2h1 and 3.80 is a First.

    I also asked the International Office of UCC about this, and they said: 3.9 = First Class. 3.25 = to Second Class Grade I. 3 = to Second Class Grade II (Note that this is again for international students, given that the first class honours is unbelievably high.)


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    #16
    reunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    This really can't be compared that well; I know one module I got 10% for attendance and another 10% for filling in a survey. Another module had 100 pieces of coursework worth 1% each!

    Trinity could have more modules with marks for attendance, which could explain there higher 2.1 (upper second class) graduates.



    Every college has nearly the same percentage of grade = type of degree (See the image below (couldn't get a table to display correctly))

    2ugm435.jpg

    To note: In UL to get 3.4 it's inbetween 2 letter grades equally (you would need 1 A2 and 1 B1 to get an average 3.4); however in UCD you would need 2 A-'s (A3's) and 3 B+s to get a first class honours. So I've used an average to get the grade required.

    I haven't taken into account discretionary bands nor have I taken into account that an A1 in 4th year in UL and 2 B3 in 2nd year would average you at 3.4 QCA (that is a 61% average in exams).

    Again, I don't think it's possible to compare one college with the other; particularly as individual modules could award marks easier (based on attendance) or exams could be repetitive (in ul some lecturers repeat the exact same exam every couple of years) or lecturers could give more hints (This question is on the exam, know it).

    Assuming all was equal, the only thing I could think of would be leaving cert points. if trinity was full of students who got 600 points in the Leaving cert versus UL who got students with 300 points; that would mean trinity students are able to sit exams better, which could result in higher marks as they can sit exams better.

    I'd be interested to know what leaving cert points people got and what degree they ended on in UL.


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    #17
    Polar Ice
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Polar Ice


    reunion wrote: »
    Every college has nearly the same percentage of grade = type of degree (See the image below (couldn't get a table to display correctly))

    2ugm435.jpg

    You're slightly off. A 1:1 in UCD is 69.66% :P (Worth mentioning, if you received 69.66% in all your exams in UCD you'd end up with a 2:1... It's not a matter of averaging percentages. It's a matter of averaging letter grades)
    EDIT: You've excluded UL's 3rd class/pass degree which is a QCA value between 2.6 and 2.0
    reunion wrote: »
    To note: In UL to get 3.4 it's in between 2 letter grades equally (you would need 1 A2 and 1 B1 to get an average 3.4); however in UCD you would need 2 A-'s (A3's) and 3 B+s to get a first class honours.
    Another small semantic thing. You're correct that in UCD 2*A- along with 3*B+ will give you a 1:1. However, an A- would not be the equivalent of an A3 in UL (if there was such a thing). UCD's system is different to UL's whereby in UCD the GPA gap between each grade is always 0.2, unlike in UL where some of the time it's 0.2 and other times it's 0.4
    reunion wrote: »
    I haven't taken into account discretionary bands nor have I taken into account that an A1 in 4th year in UL and 2 B3 in 2nd year would average you at 3.4 QCA (that is a 61% average in exams).

    Again, I don't think it's possible to compare one college with the other; particularly as individual modules could award marks easier (based on attendance) or exams could be repetitive (in ul some lecturers repeat the exact same exam every couple of years) or lecturers could give more hints (This question is on the exam, know it).

    It's not just that. You have to account that grade descriptors may be different between differing institutions. We could also start taking about grade inflation and the value of a certain classification of degree in one place to another. We could also talk about capped vs. uncapped repeats as well as passing through compensation.
    Direct grade comparison is very much not a black and white issue.
    reunion wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know what leaving cert points people got and what degree they ended on in UL.
    This website has a wide range of material, some of which covers the correlation (or lack of) between LC points and degrees in Irish Universities: http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/


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    #18
    99rory
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭99rory


    Dr Nic wrote: »
    Is this correct?
    3.4 out of 4 is 85% right?
    Anyone any comments? Surely this is ridiculous inequality??

    That is a seriously lame analysis. If the implication of your OP is that you should have got a 1st then your subsequent explanation proves quite clearly why you were left unsatisfied.

    To get a 1st in UL you need a QCA of 3.4. A 3.4 QCA lies in between a B1 and an A2 (per individual module). I studied Law and Accounting, and generally a B1 was around 65 - 70% (depending on the faculty, while it can also change slightly from year to year.)

    Surely that argument was a joke?


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