If heaven exsits

Moro23 · 17-11-2007 12:39am #1

When I go to hell will I be in the same hell as Hitler or Fred West after all I'm only guilty of not going to mass on Sundays and maybe a few more misdemeanours.

Murtinho · 17-11-2007 12:41am

Moro23 wrote: »

Could some one riddle me this . My mother who is a very holy person and has kept her faith despite been made totaly blind by 2 operations, will by the rules of christainity go to heaven. I on the other hand as an atheist will burn in hell . How is my mother going to feel in heaven knowing that I'm been tortured every second of every day.Surely she won't be too happy

She'll probably regret not helping you a bit more with your spelling homework.

Moro23 · 17-11-2007 1:48am

She will no doubt. your too kind

kelly1 · 17-11-2007 4:32pm

Moro23 wrote: »

When I go to hell will I be in the same hell as Hitler or Fred West after all I'm only guilty of not going to mass on Sundays and maybe a few more misdemeanours.

Hello, whether you go to Heaven of Hell is your choice and it's best not to leave it till the last minute to decide! Are you being sarcastic or fatalistic?

To answer your question, the punishment fits the crime. It would be commensurate with how much evil you do.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills · 17-11-2007 6:04pm

Moro23 wrote: »

When I go to hell will I be in the same hell as Hitler or Fred West after all I'm only guilty of not going to mass on Sundays and maybe a few more misdemeanours.

You could attend mass or any church service and do the "rituals" every day of your life and still end up in Hell. Many convicted criminals have been "saved" in their prison cells that may have never stepped inside any church.

Ciaran500 · 17-11-2007 6:16pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You could attend mass or any church service and do the "rituals" every day of your life and still end up in Hell. Many convicted criminals have been "saved" in their prison cells that may have never stepped inside any church.

He more meant will he be going to hell cause he's an atheist rather than the actual act of stepping inside a church.

Moro23 · 18-11-2007 11:32pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You could attend mass or any church service and do the "rituals" every day of your life and still end up in Hell. Many convicted criminals have been "saved" in their prison cells that may have never stepped inside any church.

The question is not am I going to hell. By a catholic chruchs rules I will be, but do you belive that I will share a cell with the Yorkshire ripper, just for not believing in a god. Is the fact that I don't believe in god in your mind an equal sin as say murdering 8 people or 3 million people?

Moro23 · 18-11-2007 11:42pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello, whether you go to Heaven of Hell is your choice and it's best not to leave it till the last minute to decide! Are you being sarcastic or fatalistic?

To answer your question, the punishment fits the crime. It would be commensurate with how much evil you do.

God bless,
Noel.

if it is commensurate with my crime that would mean that there is different levels to hell. So I would be in a lesser hell then Hitler , so would I not feel a bit better of then Hitler . What kind of a hell would this be. I really hope there is a hell so the likes of Stalin, Hitler , and all the rest would suffer for eternity, but they won't suffer, and I won't suffer.

JimiTime · 18-11-2007 11:42pm

Moro23 wrote: »

The question is not am I going to hell. By a catholic chruchs rules I will be, but do you belive that I will share a cell with the Yorkshire ripper, just for not believing in a god. Is the fact that I don't believe in god in your mind an equal sin as say murdering 8 people or 3 million people?

Well, not that i want to incur the wrath of the many denominational Christians here. Hell is the second death which there is no resurection. And that is actually a quote from the book of revelation. I.E. Your dead forever. you don't share anything with anyone, you cease to exist. Though many believe otherwise, I see the doctrine of hell as a corruption of the truth

ryoishin · 18-11-2007 11:50pm

Its God who knows who is going where its not decided by the Catholic Church. The idea being that its your own choice not a "well i want to go to hell" sort of choice but more of a state that you are in after death. What happens from the point of death to being in the presence of God is not known. I would nt think of "rules" of the Catholic Church but more conscious thought of a set of believers that should help in your own personal journey to whatever decisions or lifestyles you decide to live. The Catholic Churchs ways are for some people but we cant limit God to the Catholic Church and so God does operate outside of the Catholic Church and with those that dont agree with Catholic views.

I cant remember if what ive said has anything to do with the tread lol.

Sorry if Im waffling.

PDN · 19-11-2007 10:05am

If you really want to make a free and willing choice to go to a place where Fred West and Hitler will be then it wouldn't be very fair of God to deny you that choice, would it?

Of course Stalin and Pol Pot might complain bitterly that it's not fair that they have to spend all eternity in the company of Moro23 - maybe that will be what makes it hell for them.

Pompey Magnus · 19-11-2007 11:32am

kelly1 wrote: »

To answer your question, the punishment fits the crime. It would be commensurate with how much evil you do.

How much evil is disbelief in Yahweh? I mean I think I'm a pretty decent kind of fellow and, assuming God demands belief as a prerequiste to getting into Heaven, if I am to be thrown into the fires for eternity I would like to think I might not have as hard a time as say Hitler or Stalin. Maybe if St Augustine of Hippo was right I might, if I play my cards right, get to go to the same area of Hell as the unbaptised babies, who won't be frying quite as bad as the mass murderers.

I'm just thinking though maybe Hitler or Stalin saw the errors of their ways and repented to Jesus before dying. If their repentance was genuine and they truely asked Jesus to forgive them for their sins I have to admit I will be pretty annoyed if they manage to get into Heaven and I don't.

PDN · 19-11-2007 11:39am

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I'm just thinking though maybe Hitler or Stalin saw the errors of their ways and repented to Jesus before dying. If their repentance was genuine and they truely asked Jesus to forgive them for their sins I have to admit I will be pretty annoyed if they manage to get into Heaven and I don't.

And maybe that would be what makes it hell for you?

humanji · 19-11-2007 11:47am

JimiTime wrote: »

Well, not that i want to incur the wrath of the many denominational Christians here. Hell is the second death which there is no resurection. And that is actually a quote from the book of revelation. I.E. Your dead forever. you don't share anything with anyone, you cease to exist. Though many believe otherwise, I see the doctrine of hell as a corruption of the truth

That actually makes a lot of sense, and will come as quite a comfort to all the athiests out there who believe that this is what we go to anyway.

Out of curiosity, what's the first death?

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 12:08pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Well, not that i want to incur the wrath of the many denominational Christians here. Hell is the second death which there is no resurection. And that is actually a quote from the book of revelation. I.E. Your dead forever. you don't share anything with anyone, you cease to exist. Though many believe otherwise, I see the doctrine of hell as a corruption of the truth

Jimi, what kind of Christian are you?? How can you not believe in Hell and yet say you believe in Christ? You accuse me of false beliefs but how can you deny such a fundamental Christian doctrine?

Didn't you also say you don't believe in the Holy Trinity or was that someone else?

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 12:33pm

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

How much evil is disbelief in Yahweh? I mean I think I'm a pretty decent kind of fellow and, assuming God demands belief as a prerequiste to getting into Heaven, if I am to be thrown into the fires for eternity I would like to think I might not have as hard a time as say Hitler or Stalin.

DM, what determine whether you go to Heaven is the state of your soul at the time of death. What enables you to enter Heaven is the existence of (sanctifying) grace in your soul. Without this you cannot possibly exist in God's presence. Basically your soul would feel it's own ugliness and vileness and you would shun God's love and light and flee to the darkest corner of Hell rather than face God. You know how you feel when you've wronged someone and they've been good to you and you fell ashamed to face them. Multiply that by several million times. God is just so holy that none of us can begin to imagine what He's like.

So if you don't believe in God you've rejected Him and His grace and Hell therefore is the only possible option for a soul dead in sin.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I'm just thinking though maybe Hitler or Stalin saw the errors of their ways and repented to Jesus before dying. If their repentance was genuine and they truely asked Jesus to forgive them for their sins I have to admit I will be pretty annoyed if they manage to get into Heaven and I don't.

God's mercy is probably His most incredible attribute. I remember reading once in an excellent book called St. Faustina's diary one passage in which Jesus revealed to Faustina just how offensive sin is to God. When she became aware of this she said she would rather go to Hell that commit the smallest deliberate sin. Luckily for us God is always ready, with open arms, to forgive the repentant sinner. The unfortunate part is that we're often too proud to admit that we're sinners and to ask for forgiveness.

God bless,
Noel.

Pompey Magnus · 19-11-2007 1:15pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Jimi, what kind of Christian are you?? How can you not believe in Hell and yet say you believe in Christ? You accuse me of false beliefs but how can you deny such a fundamental Christian doctrine?

Perhaps JimiTime realises that if God created all things, including Hell, and has ultimate say in who goes there in his position as judge, jury and executioner, that a belief in Hell and of him as being a loving God would be incompatable.

To condem a person to eternal torment and torture for quite often trivial offences commited over only a short few decades of human life, for example the crime of calling someone else foolish ("whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" -J. Christ. Matt 22.5) is not the action of a loving, caring father onto his children, but rather of an evil, vindictive dictator onto a disobedient dog.

Perhaps this incompatability is the reason JimiTime cannot believe in Hell. For me however I agree with you and other believers in Hell in that there is no incompatability. Judging by the numerous accounts in the Bible of mass murder and torture that God is credited with infliciting on humanity I think that such a place of eternal torture and torment is entirely fitting with his character. I of course say this in terms of the literary character as described in the Bible, ultimately I don't believe in God or Hell.

Owen · 19-11-2007 1:19pm

TBH, I don't believe in either Heaven, or Hell. But if they do exist, I think I'd rather go to hell with the interesting people, rather than the self-flaggelating rosary saying types up there in Heaven, having to smile all the time, and be pleasant to everyone.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 1:25pm

ned78 wrote: »

TBH, I don't believe in either Heaven, or Hell. But if they do exist, I think I'd rather go to hell with the interesting people, rather than the self-flaggelating rosary saying types up there in Heaven, having to smile all the time, and be pleasant to everyone.

Guess who got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning! Or it is just the fact that it's a Monday?

Black Swan · 19-11-2007 1:29pm

Heaven or Hell? Good or evil? Right or wrong? These are dichotomous human concepts, not those of an infinite God. No wonder the atheists make fodder of two-dimensional theology and thinking. Such thinking is rife with inconsistencies, which cannot be explained away by appealing to mysterious causes like a shadow in Plato's cave.

I see God as benevolently omniscient, not anthropomorphic, not narrowly dichotomous in thinking, not immaturely vengeful like a child throwing a tantrum in a sandbox when he doesn't get his way (i.e., which are human traits, not those of a "God" per se).

So often when I hear someone speak of God's wrath from the pulpit (or on these boards), about casting souls into Hell, or rewarding them with Heaven, I am reminded of potty training by a parent. Further, I am reminded of the attributes of earlier "gods" (e.g., Zeus, Thor, etc.), which exhibited more human traits and behaviours than an infinitely all-knowing Being.

Has our understanding of God progressed so little in thousands of years?

For an alternative view of what it is to be Christian (or if Heaven exits), I would recommend that you read more than one book. Read The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran about infinite love (without the limitations imposed by creating the dichotomous opposite of hate and damnation).

And before the self-rightous start casting their stones at me and my struggle with attempting to understand God (or if there be Heaven as I rapidly approach death), I would remind them of the forum title: Christianity. If they truly aspire to be Christ-like, no stone would they throw (nor would they belittle my imperfect grammar or construction, or censor what I have shared here by casting my thoughts away to where no one could see them). Amend.

Owen · 19-11-2007 1:40pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Guess who got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning! Or it is just the fact that it's a Monday?

Mondaymorningitis it is Kelly1

Pompey Magnus · 19-11-2007 1:40pm

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Has our understanding of God progressed so little in thousands of years?

The understanding of the Christian God has progressed so little in thousands of years because the last interaction that this particular god is said to have had with Earth (unless you believe in bleeding statues and God inspired tsunamis) occured 2,000 years ago. The Bible is all that Christians have to go on and it is not a pleasant book to have to work with. Anything else that could be seen as progressing the view of God is in effect making things up in order to suit modern morality, akin to the brushing under the carpet of the nasty bits of the Bible and church teaching because they were written in the Bronze age and have very little to say about life in the 21st Century.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 1:43pm

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Heaven or Hell? Good or evil? Right or wrong? These are dichotomous human concepts, not those of an infinite God.

Blue_Lagoon, could I ask you please how you came to this conclusion? Are you saying that good and evil don't exist and that they are human inventions?

JimiTime · 19-11-2007 2:02pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Jimi, what kind of Christian are you??

The kind that 'tries' to love God. Love his neighbour, and also his enemy. The kind that feels truly blessed to know Jesus Christ and through him, our Father who sent him. The kind that rejoices in truth and hates the lie. The kind that through prayer and meditation, reads the scriptures. The kind that reasons with fellow Christians, to root out bad doctrines. The kind that is not confined to organised religions definitions of 'fundamental christian doctrine'. The kind that realises that Love is the key to it all. The kind that has faith independant of religious leaders and soley rests upon my Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father God most high.

How can you not believe in Hell and yet say you believe in Christ?

I believe that we have everlasting life through Christs loving sacrafice for us. I don't believe that the wicked have everlasting life, however nasty it is. I believe when the book of revelation says Death will be thrown into the lake of fire along with the wicked, it is symbolic of the ending of death, just as it is the end of life for the wicked. I believe when john says, 'which means the second death of which there is no resurrection', he means what he says. Its amazing what you can see when someone is not giving you a commentary on what everything means.

You accuse me of false beliefs but how can you deny such a fundamental Christian doctrine?

As I said, someone somewhere said 'this is fundamental christian doctrine'. Those same people established a tyrannical church which defiled My Lord and Kings name and bore bad fruit. Who's people believe in 'just wars' etc, and 'totally' miss Jesus' message of Love. Gods message stayed for truth seekers to see, and I have gladly used the tools he has provided to cut out what I see as bad doctrine. Secure in my own honesty, I know who my Father is through My Lord and his Son Yeshua, the prophesised Christ. I realise, that details and knowledge are not what save. It is applicatrion of knowledge, love, Faith and honesty of heart that do.

Didn't you also say you don't believe in the Holy Trinity or was that someone else?

God bless,
Noel.

I don't believe in a God head of 3 persons in one God. I believe in God, our Father, creator of all things, Yahweh the almighty. I believe in his only begotten Son, Yeshua, the Christ, born to a virgin, Mary. He lived and loved to manifest God. He was put to death and was raised up in 3 days and was 'given' authority over all things and a name above all others, and is my King and my saviour.

Black Swan · 19-11-2007 2:44pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Blue_Lagoon, could I ask you please how you came to this conclusion? Are you saying that good and evil don't exist and that they are human inventions?

I believe the larger question lies with the problem of dichotomies, which are in essence two dimensional. Jacques Derrida eloquently deconstructed philosophies and theologies that were built upon such two-dimensional thinking, demonstrating their limitations in both the theoretical, methodological, and practical world. He suggested that we were bound by such constructs, and we found it incomprehensible to see beyond them. Peter Burger addressed a similar notion in what was termed the social construction of reality, as did Max Weber suggest that none of our perceptions were value free, and that we were bound by the "iron cage" of our limited views of the world (or God, or Universe, or Heaven as in the OP question?).

Until we broke out of this kind of "either/or" thinking, we would never perceive what "is" (unfortunately, being conditioned by Church and school as a two dimensional thinker, I too struggle with attempting to break out from my limitations of expression).

I pose the question to you (and others), is the Universe infinite or two dimensional? Can it be sorted into right or wrong, good or evil, Heaven or Hell, etc.? Or is the Universe more complex than a simple categorisation?

Furthermore, is God two-dimensional like our theology? Can God be sorted into right or wrong, good or evil, happy or sad, pleased or angry, etc.? To sort him as such would make him finite in some ways? Human? God is either this or that? Do you see the problems with dichotomies if God is in fact infinite?

((Unfortunately I have to travel and take a two-dimensional exam that has been constructed in such a way as to have right or wrong answers. Apologies.))

ryoishin · 19-11-2007 2:44pm

Im fairly new to the Christianity board and Im unsure if this is a bashing session or a genuine dialouge!

Who knows what hell is like regardless of what it says in the Bible. The Bible is a tool to be used in both in a personal and community based relationship with God. I seriously doubt that hell is a place with fire and stuff.

Alot of western thinking behind heaven and hell comes from medieval litrature.

Alot of modern thinking is that hell is simular to an emotional state. But who knows what your meta physical state is after death.

Asiaprod · 19-11-2007 2:47pm

ryoishin wrote: »

Im fairly new to the Christianity board and Im unsure if this is a bashing session or a genuine dialouge!

Welcome, for now, I would read a lot more threads here to get a feel for the place first;)

JimiTime · 19-11-2007 3:38pm

humanji wrote: »

That actually makes a lot of sense, and will come as quite a comfort to all the athiests out there who believe that this is what we go to anyway.

I wish the atheists you refer to accepted the gift of evelasting life, and did not take comfort in death. But God is certainly not going to grant the wicked everlasting life, which is exactly the idea the doctrine of hell promotes.

Out of curiosity, what's the first death?

Death before Gods appointed day of judgement arrives, i.e. Armageddon. All will be resurrected to judgement, they will be either be granted life, or be cast into the second death of which there is no resurrection.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 3:46pm

JimiTime wrote: »

The kind that 'tries' to love God. Love his neighbour, and also his enemy. The kind that feels truly blessed to know Jesus Christ and through him, our Father who sent him. The kind that rejoices in truth and hates the lie. The kind that through prayer and meditation, reads the scriptures. The kind that realises that Love is the key to it all. The kind that has faith independant of religious leaders and soley rests upon my Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father God most high.

Very commendable but how can you deny the reality of Hell? There's heaps of evidence of its existence in the Gospel.

JimiTime wrote: »

I believe that we have everlasting life through Christs loving sacrafice for us. I don't believe that the wicked have everlasting life, however nasty it is. I believe when the book of revelation says Death will be thrown into the lake of fire along with the wicked, it is symbolic of the ending of death, just as it is the end of life for the wicked. I believe when john says, 'which means the second death of which there is no resurrection', he means what he says.

And the next verse reads:

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

Do you not believe in the immortality of the soul? Do you believe the souls of the wicked will be annihilated?

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't believe in a God head of 3 persons in one God. I believe in God, our Father, creator of all things, Yahweh the almighty. I believe in his only begotten Son, Yeshua, the Christ, born to a virgin, Mary. He lived and loved to manifest God. He was put to death and was raised up in 3 days and was 'given' authority over all things and a name above all others, and is my King and my saviour.

Do you not believe in the divinity of Jesus? In what way do you think Jesus is the Son of God?

solas · 19-11-2007 3:59pm

there's a very fine line between guilt and grace.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 4:00pm

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

.
.
.
I pose the question to you (and others), is the Universe infinite or two dimensional? Can it be sorted into right or wrong, good or evil, Heaven or Hell, etc.? Or is the Universe more complex than a simple categorisation?

Furthermore, is God two-dimensional like our theology? Can God be sorted into right or wrong, good or evil, happy or sad, pleased or angry, etc.? To sort him as such would make him finite in some ways? Human? God is either this or that? Do you see the problems with dichotomies if God is in fact infinite?

Yes I believe the world can be categorized into good and evil. If something concurs with God's will, it's good. If it goes against God's will it's evil (to varying degrees).

There is no evil in God whatsoever. He is the source of all love and good.

You haven't been reading Krishnamurthi by any chance, have you?

You seem to have a relativistic outlook.

God bless,
Noel.

Red Hand · 19-11-2007 4:05pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I wish the atheists you refer to accepted the gift of evelasting life, and did not take comfort in death.

I'm an atheist and I don't take comfort in death. I don't want to die but it is almost a dead certainty. But I don't see why I should engage in the charade of a religion, if there is no belief in me for it.

Which is worse, Jimi-to engage with a religion, perform every ritual perfectly according to the rules of the particular sect and profess to believe in something that you don't (and never will/can believe in)....or just to leave it to one side and let those that believe, believe?

But God is certainly not going to grant the wicked everlasting life, which is exactly the idea the doctrine of hell promotes.

If you read Blue_Lagoon's excellent posts, she takes issue with the whole concept of heaven and hell, and dichotomies in general. The world and universe works a lot more differently to how we percieve it to be. If a God exists, how can you say with such certainty that God will do this or that? Surely, God, being infinitly more powerful and cognitant that you, will do whatever it wants and not what some book says what it will or won't do?

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 4:15pm

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Which is worse, Jimi-to engage with a religion, perform every ritual perfectly according to the rules of the particular sect and profess to believe in something that you don't (and never will/can believe in)....or just to leave it to one side and let those that believe, believe?

Sorry, I know this wasn't aimed at me, but could I just say that the goal of religion is to love God and to spend an eternity in joyful union with Him. The "rules" are there to help us avoid sin. The focus should be more on loving God than on not sinning but you can't love God and remain attached to sin at the same time. God and sin are just not compatible.

The "rules" are basically there to keep us on the narrow path to God. And the path is very narrow and sin lies on either side of that path.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime · 19-11-2007 4:20pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Very commendable but how can you deny the reality of Hell? There's heaps of evidence of its existence in the Gospel.

Firstly the word that translates 'Hell' is actually a few words. Hades, Sheol, gahenna and tartarus. I believe 'hell', is the grave based on my readings and meditations. A place all go when they die, merely 6 feet under. So i do believe in hell, just not in a fiery pit of horridness and torture. Its a place devoid of life.

And the next verse reads:

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

and the following line is which means the second death

Do you not believe in the immortality of the soul?

No.

Do you believe the souls of the wicked will be annihilated?

Yes.

Do you not believe in the divinity of Jesus? In what way do you think Jesus is the Son of God?

I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He is from Gods very substance. he existed before the creation of the heavens and the earth. Through him all was created. However, The Father is greater than he. He recieves authority from the Father. Even Christ said the father was greater than he. He is lord over everything, both in heaven and earth, for this authority has been bestowed on him by his Father. He been given a name above all others.

[/QUOTE]

Red Hand · 19-11-2007 4:27pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Sorry, I know this wasn't aimed at me, but could I just say that the goal of religion is to love God and to spend an eternity in joyful union with Him. The rules are there to help us avoid sin. The focus should be more on loving God than not sinning but you can't love God and remain attached to sin at the same time. God and sin are just not compatible.

And to paraphrase Voltaire, legs, as anyone can plainly see, were made to be breeched, and so we have breeches and bottoms were made to fit chairs, and so we have bottoms.:)

I'm being flippant, I'm sorry kelly1. But which is more plausible: that we created God, or that God created us? (And, I realise that this is a dichotomie...both could have happened at the same time...or alternatively...none of the above).

Red Hand · 19-11-2007 4:35pm

kelly1 wrote: »

The "rules" are basically there to keep us on the narrow path to God. And the path is very narrow and sin lies on either side of that path.

Well, if I do everything (as I said in the post above) to follow a religion and yet cannot muster the belief to love or believe in a God...what am I to do? This was the OP's question.

I was created this way. Am I to lie and profess to believe in something that I cannot? Is it a sin to be incapable of belief in a God, the same way that I am incapable of having 20/20 vision without the use of my glasses?

JimiTime · 19-11-2007 4:39pm

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

I'm an atheist and I don't take comfort in death. I don't want to die but it is almost a dead certainty. But I don't see why I should engage in the charade of a religion, if there is no belief in me for it.

TBH, i don't think you should engage in the charade of religion neither. i am a christian, but I'm certainly not religious.

Which is worse, Jimi-to engage with a religion, perform every ritual perfectly according to the rules of the particular sect and profess to believe in something that you don't (and never will/can believe in)....or just to leave it to one side and let those that believe, believe?

If you don't believe in God, you need to honestly ask yourself why. It is up to you to seek. Performing rituals etc, has absolutely no bearing on Faith in God. Faith in God is a living experience. Though religion has made it into something like a 10 step program etc, its really about conditioning ones heart to Love. Remember, Christ condemned the religious leaders of the time for doing what you just described. Its not about rules and rituals, it really comes down to Love, Faith and Hope. The most important being Love.

If you read Blue_Lagoon's excellent posts, she takes issue with the whole concept of heaven and hell, and dichotomies in general. The world and universe works a lot more differently to how we percieve it to be. If a God exists, how can you say with such certainty that God will do this or that? Surely, God, being infinitly more powerful and cognitant that you, will do whatever it wants and not what some book says what it will or won't do?

However, Gods revealed name 'Yahweh' actually means to paraphrase it, 'if i say it, its as good as done'. the Scriptures are a history of Gods people, prophesies and testimonies. You can choose to ask that if God exists, why would he bother keeping his word etc. However, you have to be open to the answer. On the evidence of the scriptures and of his name, he indeed keeps his word. On the impossible retorical of him not keeping his word, I will certainly be no worse off. I follow God out of love, not out of perks or fear. Faithful Job, is a wonderful example of such living.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 4:58pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Firstly the word that translates 'Hell' is actually a few words. Hades, Sheol, gahenna and tartarus. I believe 'hell', is the grave based on my readings and meditations.

Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

How can/will there we weeping and gnashing of teeth if the soul is annihilated?

The Chessplayer · 19-11-2007 5:00pm

Murtinho wrote: »

She'll probably regret not helping you a bit more with your spelling homework.

Why do posters in the 'Christianity' threads always make spelling mistakes, e.g. "Once saved always saved is a flase docterine.." was a post from earlier.

I must say, these shocking mistakes irk the chessplayer so.

Red Hand · 19-11-2007 5:03pm

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Why do posters in the 'Christianity' threads always make spelling mistakes, e.g. "Once saved always saved is a flase docterine.." was a post from earlier.

I must say, these shocking mistakes irk the chessplayer so.

Surely, The Chessplayer? Or The_Chessplayer?

OK, no more hijacking of thread for spelling mistakes from me.

Moro23 · 19-11-2007 5:39pm

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Why do posters in the 'Christianity' threads always make spelling mistakes, e.g. "Once saved always saved is a flase docterine.." was a post from earlier.

I must say, these shocking mistakes irk the chessplayer so.

one reason for spelling mistakes is simple I can't spell very well there I said it.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 5:42pm

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Well, if I do everything (as I said in the post above) to follow a religion and yet cannot muster the belief to love or believe in a God...what am I to do? This was the OP's question.

You could sincerely seek God and ask Him to reveal His presence in some way.
God's existence is just too big a question to ignore.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

I was created this way.

Are you sure about that? Are you not heavily influenced by your environment? Did your parents bring you up to believe in and love God or was faith absent? Did you receive a good religious education or was it ignored/discouraged?

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Am I to lie and profess to believe in something that I cannot? Is it a sin to be incapable of belief in a God, the same way that I am incapable of having 20/20 vision without the use of my glasses?

It would be wrong to go through the motions when you don't believe. But honestly, how hard have you tried to find God? Have you given up on Him? One thing is for sure, that God will never give up on you.

God bless,
Noel.

Moro23 · 19-11-2007 5:42pm

Of course Stalin and Pol Pot might complain bitterly that it's not fair that they have to spend all eternity in the company of Moro23 - maybe that will be what makes it hell for them.

[/QUOTE]

Who will they complain to ? I agree with you eternity with me would be no walk in the park.

Red Hand · 19-11-2007 5:56pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Are you not heavily influenced by your environment? Did your parents bring you up to believe in and love God? Did you receive a good religious education?

Yes, to all three.:)

It would be wrong to go through the motions when you don't believe. But honestly, how hard have you tried to find God? Have you given up on Him?

You could say the same of The Devil, Zeus, Vampires, or any infinite number of beings that people believe in.

JimiTime · 19-11-2007 6:22pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

How can/will there we weeping and gnashing of teeth if the soul is annihilated?

if you want to isolate scriptures, then how can 'death' be thrown into this lake of fire also? it pays no dividends to look at scripture in such a way noel.

JimiTime · 19-11-2007 6:29pm

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Why do posters in the 'Christianity' threads always make spelling mistakes, e.g. "Once saved always saved is a flase docterine.." was a post from earlier.

I must say, these shocking mistakes irk the chessplayer so.

Why do people get so hung up on spelling? i cudn't kare less. I'm not in skool, so if the meaning is put accross then so what. get over it.

Moro23 · 19-11-2007 7:02pm

I must say that I have enjoyed reading this thread .Some of the posts have been out of this world.

PDN · 19-11-2007 7:32pm

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Why do posters in the 'Christianity' threads always make spelling mistakes, e.g. "Once saved always saved is a flase docterine.." was a post from earlier.

I must say, these shocking mistakes irk the chessplayer so.

To be fair the atheist threads tend not to be much better. I blame our crap education system.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 11:19am

JimiTime wrote: »

if you want to isolate scriptures, then how can 'death' be thrown into this lake of fire also? it pays no dividends to look at scripture in such a way noel.

So what makes you right and me wrong?

JimiTime · 20-11-2007 1:44pm

kelly1 wrote: »

So what makes you right and me wrong?

Would you like to get specific?

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 1:47pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Would you like to get specific?

Yes, please do. I'm clearly in need of enlightenment. Maybe I'm just not indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

If heaven exsits

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