Private, non-subsidised schools in the republic?

gaiscioch · 06-08-2015 2:56am #1

Is there even a single school in the republic which receives no funding whatsoever from the state? (I assume the 14 fee-charging schools, most of which seem to be explicitly "Christian", in the North receive no state funding there.)

The only one I can think of that is possibly, if not probably, in this category is Headfort Preparatory School in Kells, Co. Meath, where day fees are around €10,000 per year and boarding €17,000 per year. It's a school for primary school students, and the only person I know who attended it was taken out of high infants, when he was about 6, to go there as a boarder. Shudder.

Today, however, over in the "International and Other" section of Educationposts.ie is a job for a school called Dublin Oak Academy, which I had never heard of. This is the actual school in Kilcroney House near Bray, and this is about the size of the school population. It describes itself as "Dublin Oak Academy, a Catholic International boarding school for boys (junior cycle secondary level), located near Bray, Co. Wicklow". The ownership and governance of the school is, let's just say, interesting. The basic annual fee for attending this school in 2015-2016 is €34,800 plus c. €10,000 extra in optional fees. Presumably this school is definitely not subsidised by the Irish state.

Any other primary or secondary schools like these?

rainbowtrout · 06-08-2015 9:27am

I have never heard of the Dublin Oak school in all my years teaching. How odd. It seems to be a one year thing. I notice they don't offer Irish, so they either a) must be entirely privately funded otherwise they'd be obliged to, or b) all of their students are international and their selling point is that if you send your son there for one year (from abroad) or if you are in the country for a year working your son can leave with a state examination under his belt.

Many of the countries they mention under their admissions are in South and Central America. No wonder Spanish is one of the subjects they offer.

In terms of private schools all the grinds schools, Leeson St, Yeats etc would be considered private as they get no funding from the DES.

Dave0301 · 06-08-2015 11:00am

Funny that you should mention Headfort as they have received ciritscism after advertising for "internship" and the Jobbridge scheme.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jobbridge-ads-private-school-meath-2253479-Aug2015/?utm_source=shortlink

qweerty · 06-08-2015 1:21pm

I think that private primary schools don't receive state subvention. So, Aravon, Castle Park, Hedley Park, Lycee, etc. The Institute of Education, of course, doesn't receive funding either.

evolving_doors · 06-08-2015 3:11pm

Ya it's a bit of a muddle OP there's a difference between Fee-Charging/Private and Voluntary so you'd want to clarify what you mean exactly by private...

Are there any 100% state run schools in Ireland?

gaiscioch · 06-08-2015 5:19pm

Dave0301 wrote: »

Funny that you should mention Headfort as they have received ciritscism after advertising for "internship" and the Jobbridge scheme.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jobbridge-ads-private-school-meath-2253479-Aug2015/?utm_source=shortlink

Not one, but two Jobbridge jobs from a school which charges fees that any fee-charging secondary school would envy. From that article: "Headmaster Dermot Dix soon took down the listings, telling users on the page that he is strongly opposed to any form of exploitation in schools." Indeed.

gaiscioch · 06-08-2015 5:38pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ya it's a bit of a muddle OP there's a difference between Fee-Charging/Private and Voluntary so you'd want to clarify what you mean exactly by private...

Are there any 100% state run schools in Ireland?

I'm trying to find out how many primary or secondary schools in the state are not in receipt of any money from the state. As the vast majority of schools in the state are private schools - e.g, local Mercy, Loretto, CBS, etc are privately owned by the RCC - I'm only interested in discovering how many schools survive entirely on fees alone (as opposed to the vast majority of fee-charging schools - Blackrock, Clongowes, Belvedere, etc - which have most teachers' salaries and other expenses paid by the state).

As far as I'm aware - although I'm open to correction - at second level only VEC/ETB schools are 100% public schools in the sense that they are owned by the state. I don't know if there are any state-owned schools at primary level. I suspect in most cases the local National School was built with parish funds before 1922, but its development has been funded by the state so it would be interesting to see what legal right to the property the state ensured it had in exchange for all that funding.

evolving_doors · 06-08-2015 5:54pm

Although if we were to go the same way as UK with exclusively private funding then the avg. fees would be about €40k (just thinking of places like Eton or Harrow)...
Could Ireland go that way?
The average day fee is about 4-5k.. on the face of it, it is relatively expensive... but after chucking nearly 60k into childcare is it that much more expensive?
Arent fee charging schools saving the state money... is there a social cost to that?

dambarude · 06-08-2015 5:56pm

Community National Schools are completely state funded/run, at primary level. They are under the patronage of the local ETB. They're not yet fully running properly; they have yet to establish boards of management.

gaiscioch · 06-08-2015 5:58pm

qweerty wrote: »

I think that private primary schools don't receive state subvention. So, Aravon, Castle Park, Hedley Park, Lycee, etc.

I wonder how the state can justify that? For instance, St Michael's and Blackrock both have fee-charging primary schools where, I assume, they teach the Irish syllabus. Would the same logic not apply at primary level that applies at secondary level - i.e. we've set up a school, we have the students, and the state gives funding for teachers based on the number of students on condition that the school follows the Irish syllabus.

I suspect the above schools - Aravon is closed now - would get no state funding if they don't follow the Irish syllabus but it's not clear if they do or don't follow it.

gaiscioch · 06-08-2015 6:02pm

dambarude wrote: »

Community National Schools are completely state funded/run, at primary level. They are under the patronage of the local ETB. They're not yet fully running properly; they have yet to establish boards of management.

Interesting. It would be nice if state taxes only went into a school system like this where the property is state owned.

rainbowtrout · 06-08-2015 6:04pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Although if we were to go the same way as UK with exclusively private funding then the avg. fees would be about €40k (just thinking of places like Eton or Harrow)...
Could Ireland go that way?
The average day fee is about 4-5k.. on the face of it, it is relatively expensive... but after chucking nearly 60k into childcare is it that much more expensive?
Arent fee charging schools saving the state money... is there a social cost to that?

I don't think there is the same kind of wealth in Ireland that is in the UK for those kind of fees. Unless the schools were much smaller than the like of Eton or Harrow. Not that there aren't people in Ireland that couldn't afford those fees but with a population of 60 million the UK is proportionally going to have way more people that can afford those kind of fees and I would say that the top levels of wealth in the UK are far above those in Ireland, I'd say the converse in also true in relation to poverty.

Even considering the cost of housing/living in London alone. There are plenty of corners of London, mainly in west London and North West London where properties are in the multimillions and no shortage of buyers. We just wouldn't have that in Ireland except in small pockets of Dublin and the odd country house/castle dotted around the country.

How many people in Ireland could afford 200k on school fees for one child's secondary school education over five years?

gaiscioch · 06-08-2015 6:20pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Although if we were to go the same way as UK with exclusively private funding then the avg. fees would be about €40k (just thinking of places like Eton or Harrow)...
Could Ireland go that way?
The average day fee is about 4-5k.. on the face of it, it is relatively expensive... but after chucking nearly 60k into childcare is it that much more expensive?
Arent fee charging schools saving the state money... is there a social cost to that?

That's the thing; in a genuinely private school system à la in England, fees would be up there with that low-profile school in Bray in the OP whose basic fees per student are €34k plus around €10,000 for optional extras per year. A social argument used to defend the €100million plus given to fee-charging schools is that it helps to keep the upper middle class in Ireland bigger and that if the subsidy didn't exist most of these kids would shock, horror have to go to a non fee-charging school.

In many cases fee-charging schools are bad value for money - for instance, in south-east Dublin there are at least two "free" schools which produce better results than the fee-charging status symbols in the area. There is an awful lot of snobbery attached to attending such schools, and I'm not sure our taxes should be supplementing that carry-on (although I've heard the argument for defenders of fee-charging schools that the fees are subsidising the schools, as if the school was state-owned). The argument that fee-charging schools save the state money remains to be proven as the economies of scale would be far greater if the state was buying for every school in the state and it's also not clear what legal rights the state has to private school property that was funded by the state.

Dave0301 · 06-08-2015 6:46pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

That's the thing; in a genuinely private school system à la in England, fees would be up there with that low-profile school in Bray in the OP whose basic fees per student are €34k plus around €10,000 for optional extras per year. A social argument used to defend the €100million plus given to fee-charging schools is that it helps to keep the upper middle class in Ireland bigger and that if the subsidy didn't exist most of these kids would shock, horror have to go to a non fee-charging school.

In many cases fee-charging schools are bad value for money - for instance, in south-east Dublin there are at least two "free" schools which produce better results than the fee-charging status symbols in the area. There is an awful lot of snobbery attached to attending such schools, and I'm not sure our taxes should be supplementing that carry-on (although I've heard the argument for defenders of fee-charging schools that the fees are subsidising the schools, as if the school was state-owned). The argument that fee-charging schools save the state money remains to be proven as the economies of scale would be far greater if the state was buying for every school in the state and it's also not clear what legal rights the state has to private school property that was funded by the state.

They would be the fees for a full time boarder at the likes of Eton. An independent day school could be found from anywhere between £7000 - £16000 per academic year.

Having experience with the private sector, I do think that having the extra financial muscle to provide top class amenities, attract the top teachers and providing extra curricular opportunities is excellent. However, I don't think that they should be subsidised by the state as they are in Ireland.

The BBC wrote an article today based on research carried out on private pupils/state pupils and how their careers progress. Obviously it is UK based. It makes some interesting points.

qweerty · 06-08-2015 7:15pm

Another reason why UK-level fees wouldn't be sustainable in Ireland is that they are inflated by international students. In theory, though, I think Irish fees could go somewhat higher without much drop-off in demand. While the UK obviously has a larger population, the proportion is similar. I'm sure parents struggle to pay fees in Ireland, but I get the impression that it's far worse in the UK. From my little experience, the difference between the best UK private schools and the average UK state schools is a good deal greater than in Ireland - both because Irish state schools are better but also that Irish private schools are worse. Also because private school teachers in Ireland are paid the same amount as state school teachers, private schools aren't able to attract talented teachers anywhere near to the same extent as in the UK.

Just had a look, and the likes of Westminster, St Paul's, Kings College, etc, all charge £20,000+ for day students, so while I'm sure there are private schools for around £10,000, they're very much not in the elite.

That Dublin Oak Academy looks very interesting. Good spot, OP. Had a quick look at the video on their website. Majority of students seem to be international and most classrooms seem to have dead Jesuses nailed to the wall. Picture of the Pope in the canteen, too. Curious that they only offer Junior Cert, as though the intention is that students would return to their home countries for final school years. Or is it a training ground for priests?! Given that they follow the Irish curriculum, it's not immediately obvious why they wouldn't be eligible for receipt of state funding, unless it's because of something to do with the status of Legion of Mary - maybe profit-making?

I think what's obvious is that to answer the original question, we need to know the conditions on state funding. I've not had luck in finding.

qweerty · 06-08-2015 7:29pm

Here's a list of the names of the students: http://www.oakinternational.org/admin/archivos_db/archivos/invitation_2015.pdf. (Amazing that they're available online!) Seems to be an overwhelming number of Hispanic names. School for (very) wealthy South Americans?

The school calendar shows five school trips in the year: London, Paris, Austria (skiing), Italy and Spain!

rainbowtrout · 06-08-2015 10:55pm

I read up about Dublin Oak earlier. Seems this branch of schools were founded by a Mexican priest, hence the big religious influence.

Most of the students (there is a table of break down of countries on their website) are from South/Central America, hence Spanish being the language for Junior Cert.

I'd imagine it's a way for wealthy South Americans to send their son to school in Europe for a year, learn English while they are here, get a recognised educational qualification which could then possibly make transition to boarding school for Leaving Cert/ A-levels/ Baccalaureate easier and make easier entry to European universities?

RH149 · 07-08-2015 12:53am

I did an interview there for a Summer job ( many many moons ago!) and I thought I was there for TEFL but all that they were really interested in was if I could teach the students prayers and hymns.....huge big picture of John Paul II behind the Principal's desk and I couldn't work out if it she was a nun or not. It seemed more like a Catholic Secondary school than an International Language school but I only saw Spanish children around the grounds.

I happened to drive by it again last year on one of the strike days and noticed two ASTI members on picket duty outside the gates- Gave them a few beeps of support but remember being surprised that their teachers would have been ASTI- don't know why I was surprised but I was.

gaiscioch · 07-08-2015 3:12pm

Dave0301 wrote: »

The BBC wrote an article today based on research carried out on private pupils/state pupils and how their careers progress. Obviously it is UK based. It makes some interesting points.

Very interesting article. The bit below for me resonated strongly with one of Malcolm Gladwell's arguments in Outliers: The Story of Success. In Outliers, Gladwell was trying to find an answer for why "successful" parents tend to raise "successful" children. He looks at the culture of those families and cites studies which show children of more successful parents are taught to assert themselves from a very early age and a culture develops of setting goals and claiming a right to them. Gladwell used an example of parents bringing their child to a doctor and preparing the child beforehand to ask any questions they might have, whereas kids from a less successful family are taught politeness and deference (summary under 'Upbringing' on this page).

The report put the earnings gap down to factors such as the university attended, but also suggested non-academic factors, such as assertiveness, were at play.... But it says the remaining half cannot be explained by these factors and is likely to be down to non-academic factors such as articulacy, assertiveness and other important soft skills.

katydid · 07-08-2015 8:01pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Is there even a single school in the republic which receives no funding whatsoever from the state? (I assume the 14 fee-charging schools, most of which seem to be explicitly "Christian", in the North receive no state funding there.)

The only one I can think of that is possibly, if not probably, in this category is Headfort Preparatory School in Kells, Co. Meath, where day fees are around €10,000 per year and boarding €17,000 per year. It's a school for primary school students, and the only person I know who attended it was taken out of high infants, when he was about 6, to go there as a boarder. Shudder.

Today, however, over in the "International and Other" section of Educationposts.ie is a job for a school called Dublin Oak Academy, which I had never heard of. This is the actual school in Kilcroney House near Bray, and this is about the size of the school population. It describes itself as "Dublin Oak Academy, a Catholic International boarding school for boys (junior cycle secondary level), located near Bray, Co. Wicklow". The ownership and governance of the school is, let's just say, interesting. The basic annual fee for attending this school in 2015-2016 is €34,800 plus c. €10,000 extra in optional fees. Presumably this school is definitely not subsidised by the Irish state.

Any other primary or secondary schools like these?

Grind schools like Yeats College, who do the senior cycle of secondary

spurious · 07-08-2015 10:40pm

I wouldn't count the grinds businesses as schools. I don't think they even do themselves. They train to pass the exams rather than educate and make no secret of it.

Is that 'Mexican' school an Opus Dei outfit?

Sadly, so many unemployed teachers scrabbling about for a few hours here and there means that some union members will end up teaching in places you wouldn't expect.

katydid · 07-08-2015 10:45pm

spurious wrote: »

I wouldn't count the grinds businesses as schools. I don't think they even do themselves. They train to pass the exams rather than educate and make no secret of it.

Is that 'Mexican' school an Opus Dei outfit?

Sadly, so many unemployed teachers scrabbling about for a few hours here and there means that some union members will end up teaching in places you wouldn't expect.

Depends how you define a school, I suppose. Can the Roman Catholic indoctrination centre you describe be described as a school??? :-)

gaiscioch · 07-08-2015 11:28pm

spurious wrote: »

I wouldn't count the grinds businesses as schools. I don't think they even do themselves. They train to pass the exams rather than educate and make no secret of it.

I'd agree with this. I'm trying to find primary and secondary schools which are proper schools, rather than exam revision years, and are entirely free from state funding, just as Independent schools in Britain are.

spurious wrote: »

Is that 'Mexican' school an Opus Dei outfit?

Nope. Some interesting results here (scroll down)

gaiscioch · 07-08-2015 11:35pm

Interestingly, according to this Wikipedia link, in Britain the "Independent Schools" were not always solely privately funded: "Until 1975 there had been a group of 179 academically selective schools drawing on both private and state funding, the direct grant grammar schools. The Direct Grant Grammar Schools (Cessation of Grant) Regulations 1975 required these schools to choose between full state funding as comprehensive schools and full independence. As a result, 119 of these schools became independent."(citing this Hansard record as the source[/url])

I never knew that. Essentially, it seems the fee-charging British grammar school system was the same as in Ireland - funded by a mixture of fees and state subventions - until 1975, when they changed the law to force them to choose to be fully privately funded, or fully state funded.

spurious · 08-08-2015 2:48pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Nope. Some interesting results here (scroll down)

Frightening stuff indeed.

evolving_doors · 08-08-2015 6:43pm

I think the oak school is a very special case. I know that a lot of wealthy parents in developing countries send kids abroad because of the threat of kidnapping.

Anyhow OP I doubt youll find a full secondary school (with typical Irish curriculum) that relies on fees from parents only.

Anyone know how much a basic captitation is for a sec school of 500 students (not including wages)?

rainbowtrout · 08-08-2015 7:22pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think the oak school is a very special case. I know that a lot of wealthy parents in developing countries send kids abroad because of the threat of kidnapping.

Anyhow OP I doubt youll find a full secondary school (with typical Irish curriculum) that relies on fees from parents only.

Anyone know how much a basic captitation is for a sec school of 500 students (not including wages)?

There's a list of figures for 2014 here:

http://www.jmb.ie/school-grants

I never realised there were so many factors included when calculating basic capitation.

Private, non-subsidised schools in the republic?

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