Summons for theft

MissSilly · 29-10-2013 1:43pm #1

Hello
This summer put a €5 lipstick in my shopping bag in Penny's and failed to pay for it.. I paid for all the rest of the goods.. The security guard stopped me upon departure and took me to a room where a member of the Gardai took a statement from me. I feel terrible and I told the Garda it was completely out of character for me to do anything like this and I genuienly do'nt know why I did it...
I have now received my court summons date and I am terrified of what will happen..
I am a student teacher and I am afraid I will get a criminal record for this offence...
What are the best and worst possible outcomes?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

Bepolite · 29-10-2013 1:53pm

The charter precludes legal advice, which is exactly what you should have sought by now. Get a solicitor on to this today. I don't mean to sound harsh but this is not something to bury your head in the sand about and hope it goes away.

theblaqueguy · 29-10-2013 1:56pm

If you have no previous convictions
Which would mean you have not been to court before for anything the judge should give you the option to make a donation to the court charity fund you will not get a conviction if your allowed do that its upto the judge
I would also advise to get a solicitor like the previous poster said

MissSilly · 29-10-2013 2:00pm

I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

Bepolite · 29-10-2013 2:04pm

MissSilly wrote: »

I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

Forget the cost, take out a bank loan if you have too. A reasonable solicitor may be able to help with a significantly better outcome than just pitching up. Your college, if it has a law department, will likely have a FLAC (Free Legal Advice Clinic) you may be able to get some advice there, you may also qualify for legal aid.

Just Google solicitors in your area and ask them about legal aid and explain the situation.

We all do stupid things from time to time, but if you broke your leg you wouldn't leave it and hope it goes away. The same thing applies here.

irishgrover · 29-10-2013 2:05pm

I would suggest you quickly get over the embarrassment and shame. If you don't deal with this properly you could well end up with a criminal conviction which will lead to much more than embarrassment and shame in the future when you start looking for employment or travel visas.
Best of luck, but time to swallow your pride, get you head of of the sand and deal with this...get a solicitor...

U.P.O. · 29-10-2013 2:07pm

MissSilly wrote: »

I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

Most Universities have free legal aid (at least they did when i was in college) Try looking into that.

Bepolite · 29-10-2013 2:09pm

U.P.O. wrote: »

Most Universities have free legal aid (at least they did when i was in college) Try looking into that.

Don't confuse FLAC with legal aid, a prospective solicitor will be able to advise on the latter.

tayto lover · 29-10-2013 2:14pm

You can get a solicitor in the court before the case is held. Go early and ask one to represent you. You will probably get off lightly i.e. probation act as it's your first time. It's no big deal but don't leave it hanging.

MissSilly · 29-10-2013 2:17pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You can get a solicitor in the court before the case is held. Go early and ask one to represent you. You will probably get off lightly i.e. probation act as it's your first time. It's no big deal but don't leave it hanging.

How much do they normally charge?
Would I not have too meet with one before hand and find out what happens?
What is a probation act?

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 2:17pm

MissSilly wrote: »

I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

Many SU's have an arrangement with a local solicitor. You may also because of your situation be entitled to legal aid. In any event it's easy to find a solicitor google search your local area for criminal solicitors. If you deal with this matter correctly it may even be struck out, but ignore it you will have a theft conviction.

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 2:19pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You can get a solicitor in the court before the case is held. Go early and ask one to represent you. You will probably get off lightly i.e. probation act as it's your first time. It's no big deal but don't leave it hanging.

I would say not the way to deal with a theft charge. The solicitor will need to make a Garry Doyle order, and then arrange a date for plea or hearing. Best to contact solicitor well in advance of summons date.

tayto lover · 29-10-2013 2:21pm

MissSilly wrote: »

How much do they normally charge?
Would I not have too meet with one before hand and find out what happens?
What is a probation act?

Not sure but its not too much for such a small case probably 80 euro (not sure).
If you give him your account that morning he will represent you no problem. Ask one of the garda which one you should go to so you get a good one.
Probation act is like keeping the crime on record in case you do it again but not giving you a fine or conviction (again I think).

Don't worry too much as its no big deal. Very minor crime.

Bepolite · 29-10-2013 2:23pm

MissSilly wrote: »

How much do they normally charge?
Would I not have too meet with one before hand and find out what happens?
What is a probation act?

As Infosys has indicated Tayto's advice isn't great. Precisely why legal advice can't be sought here.

The probation act, which you've absolutely NO GUARANTEE of getting would allow for no criminal record and probably a donation to the poor box.

My last post here, but OP WHY THE FECK are you still posting here and not phoning round solicitors. Staying here is likely to get you into even more trouble given some of the advice being handed out. You're clearly looking for someone to give you the answer you want, not the answer that will best protect you.

MissSilly · 29-10-2013 2:24pm

infosys wrote: »

I would say not the way to deal with a theft charge. The solicitor will need to make a Garry Doyle order, and then arrange a date for plea or hearing. Best to contact solicitor well in advance of summons date.

I have received my date now.. Its in January.. The Garda that took my details that day said he didnt think it would go to court.. that I would probably be called to go to my local Garda Station and speak to a certain Garda who deals with this area.. This never materialised and now Im being summoned..

gavindublin · 29-10-2013 2:24pm

To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 2:26pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Not sure but its not too much for such a small case probably 80 euro (not sure).
If you give him your account that morning he will represent you no problem. Ask one of the garda which one you should go to so you get a good one.
Probation act is like keeping the crime on record in case you do it again but not giving you a fine or conviction (again I think).

Don't worry too much as its no big deal. Very minor crime.

It is a theft offence, while it is a minor amount it is a dishonesty offence, it will effect any state job, it will effect any job in large multi national it will effect visa to most countries. To deal with this matter with out Garry Doyle order and time to review and request CCTV would be professionally negligent in my humble opinion. The OP needs to understand that this matter is serious and to deal with it on the day is a really bad idea. There may be deficiencies in the summons or the evidence not best to try and deal with that on the day.

tayto lover · 29-10-2013 2:28pm

gavindublin wrote: »

To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

That's a good way to deal with this type of minor crime.

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 2:28pm

gavindublin wrote: »

To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

AGS must take into account views of victim, many retail companies have a all shoplifters prosecuted, on that basis AGS may have decided to prosecute.

tayto lover · 29-10-2013 2:31pm

infosys wrote: »

AGS must take into account views of victim, many retail companies have a all shoplifters prosecuted, on that basis AGS may have decided to prosecute.

Is it not up to the garda to decide whether to prosecute or not?

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 2:35pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it not up to the garda to decide whether to prosecute or not?

Well outside a private proscution which is possible in summary cases yes it is upto AGS to prosecute. The DC is full of proscutions for as little as a can of coke, 10 or 20 euro of hash, criminal damage of 50 to 100 euros, I have sat in court and wondered why a large amount of cases are there, but they are, a theft of €10 is still a criminal offence. I know that some retailers insist on calling AGS to all detected offences, and request that no adult caution be administered.

MissSilly · 29-10-2013 2:39pm

gavindublin wrote: »

To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

This is what the Garda told me would be the likely outcome of the offence. I have not left out any details. I think am going to call the Garda and ask him is it too late for this option.

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 2:58pm

MissSilly wrote: »

This is what the Garda told me would be the likely outcome of the offence. I have not left out any details. I think am going to call the Garda and ask him is it too late for this option.

You have been given good advice to contact a solicitor, you have been told your SU may have a free solicitor and you maybe able to get legal aid. Let the solicitor contact the Garda if he thinks it will help. But just get proper legal advice.

Santa Cruz · 29-10-2013 8:18pm

gavindublin wrote: »

To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

This is good advice. Make an appointment to speak with the Superintendent and see is there an option for an Adult Caution. It is not in the interests of justice that you be prosecuted for this. Have all the details of the case, your background etc ready for the meeting. If not confident about speaking with the Superintendent get a solicitor to do it as soon as possible. There are many cases every year where cautions are given out. This means that you would not have a criminal record and would avoid media publicity which could occur if it is outside Dublin where the District Court reports are big news in the local papers.
A Superintendent can recommend no prosecution. Even if he had to get the DPPs consent the DPP would take the lead from the Superintendents recommendation. Anyone can make the stupid mistake you did. Good
Don't delay. Get working on this immediately.

Santa Cruz · 29-10-2013 8:21pm

infosys wrote: »

Well outside a private proscution which is possible in summary cases yes it is upto AGS to prosecute. The DC is full of proscutions for as little as a can of coke, 10 or 20 euro of hash, criminal damage of 50 to 100 euros, I have sat in court and wondered why a large amount of cases are there, but they are, a theft of €10 is still a criminal offence. I know that some retailers insist on calling AGS to all detected offences, and request that no adult caution be administered.

A lot of people do not pursue the option of an Adult Caution because they have to admit their guilt. They prefer to take their chance on a dismissal. Of course then they may also have some previous convictions

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-10-2013 9:08pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

A lot of people do not pursue the option of an Adult Caution because they have to admit their guilt. They prefer to take their chance on a dismissal. Of course then they may also have some previous convictions

Accept that a number of people offered Adult Caution don't accept it, in this case the option was not given.

Sala · 29-10-2013 10:17pm

Get a Solicitor OP. A criminal conviction can have serious repercussions

doublej · 30-10-2013 3:15am

infosys wrote: »

It is a theft offence, while it is a minor amount it is a dishonesty offence, it will effect any state job, it will effect any job in large multi national it will effect visa to most countries. To deal with this matter with out Garry Doyle order and time to review and request CCTV would be professionally negligent in my humble opinion. The OP needs to understand that this matter is serious and to deal with it on the day is a really bad idea. There may be deficiencies in the summons or the evidence not best to try and deal with that on the day.

The student Miss Silly has admitted that she had stolen the lipstick, why on earth would you have her plead Not Guilty and seek CCTV footage in the hope that there may be a dificiency in the prosecution, even though it would require the student to be less than forthcoming with the whole truth in her sworn evidence.
Get a solicitor by all means, plead guilty and provide your solicitor with as much background information as possible to attest to your character; be prepared to swear on Oath that this was and will be a one off theft, apologise to the retail outlet from whom you stole and cost a lot of additional money in their security officers time and believe that the Judge is merciful and kind.
If you deny the theft and there is a need to extend your hearing then the outcome becomes a little more difficult to predict as you will have increased the possibility of a conviction without a Probation Act .
I wish you well and suggest that if at all possible you ask your best friend to accompany you for support , she will know that the theft was out of character and will not be judgemental I hope.

McCongo · 30-10-2013 8:15am

Free legal aid will be allowed for this type of offence. Miss Silly should go to he District Court on sitting days, as soon as possible, and identify the legal aid solicitors. She should approach the one who seems most on the ball and ask to have her case taken on.

doublej · 30-10-2013 9:05am

It isn't quite as simple as selecting a vegetable from a market stall!
The free criminal legal aid scheme is available if Miss Silly can satisfy the Court that neither she nor her parent(s) have the means to afford a fair representation.
The seriousness of the offence is also taken into consideration.
If Miss Silly is granted legal aid, she will need to know the financial circumstances of her parents, ( assuming that she is dependant or somewhat dependant upon them), and provide that information to the Court officials that administer applications for free criminal legal aid.

Pro Hoc Vice · 30-10-2013 9:09am

doublej wrote: »

The student Miss Silly has admitted that she had stolen the lipstick, why on earth would you have her plead Not Guilty and seek CCTV footage in the hope that there may be a dificiency in the prosecution, even though it would require the student to be less than forthcoming with the whole truth in her sworn evidence.
Get a solicitor by all means, plead guilty and provide your solicitor with as much background information as possible to attest to your character; be prepared to swear on Oath that this was and will be a one off theft, apologise to the retail outlet from whom you stole and cost a lot of additional money in their security officers time and believe that the Judge is merciful and kind.
If you deny the theft and there is a need to extend your hearing then the outcome becomes a little more difficult to predict as you will have increased the possibility of a conviction without a Probation Act .
I wish you well and suggest that if at all possible you ask your best friend to accompany you for support , she will know that the theft was out of character and will not be judgemental I hope.

As a person on trial the accused does not have to give evidence. It is up to the AGS to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. But let's look against what she said,

"This summer put a €5 lipstick in my shopping bag in Penny's and failed to pay for it.. I paid for all the rest of the goods.. The security guard stopped me upon departure and took me to a room where a member of the Gardai took a statement from me. I feel terrible and I told the Garda it was completely out of character for me to do anything like this and I genuienly do'nt know why I did it..."

There is doubt that the person deliberately took the goods, enough doubt to at least look at the evidence. If there is enough evidence to prove guilt in the "Garry Doyle" order then a person can contemplate pleading guilty.

To go with a best friend instead of a solicitor or to go without a solicitor even when pleading guilty can mean the difference between getting a strick out or a conviction. A good solicitor will know the most likely outcome, will know if there will be need for an appeal, a good solicitor will know if no conviction is a possibility even for a plea and will also know if there is enough evidence.

doublej · 30-10-2013 9:38am

My suggestions were to get a solicitor AND to get a friend to accompany her; the Court system is traumatic for young and ordinarily law abiding people.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that she should put herself at a disadvantage by not having proper legal representation.
If there is a doubt that she meant to pay for the item or if the detention or statement were unlawful then her solicitor can ascertain those facts in their consultation in advance of the case starting.
My advice to plead guilty was based solely upon her own acknowledgement that she had stolen the lipstick and as such , felt that it was the best course of action rather than delaying the inevitable determination .
The skies do not always come down when you tell the truth.

Pro Hoc Vice · 30-10-2013 9:51am

doublej wrote: »

My suggestions were to get a solicitor AND to get a friend to accompany her; the Court system is traumatic for young and ordinarily law abiding people.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that she should put herself at a disadvantage by not having proper legal representation.
If there is a doubt that she meant to pay for the item or if the detention or statement were unlawful then her solicitor can ascertain those facts in their consultation in advance of the case starting.
My advice to plead guilty was based solely upon her own acknowledgement that she had stolen the lipstick and as such , felt that it was the best course of action rather than delaying the inevitable determination .
The skies do not always come down when you tell the truth.

It is not as simple as turn up on day, the first day in court there are two options 1 indicate a plea and be put back for a plea and sentence 2 make what is called a Garry Doyle application and then adjourn for plea or date.

Only after getting the Garry Doyle documents can a solicitor advise on a plea.

I agree it is best to tell the truth, but I'm not sure based on the OP that she intended to steal. This may have been a cry for help a deliberate attempt to be caught, it may have been an error, the OP herself admits paying for everything else, the lipstick had little value, and the OP says she does not know why she did it, on that basis I'm not sure the truth is she did intend to steal, I'm not sure there is the mens rea, of the crime, and on that basis needs a good legal advisor who based on a long chat getting all the information can properly advise.

I have advised people to plead guilty, but only after seeing all the evidence and most importantly talking to the accused and hearing their story.

Shelflife · 30-10-2013 4:02pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Not sure but its not too much for such a small case probably 80 euro (not sure).
If you give him your account that morning he will represent you no problem. Ask one of the garda which one you should go to so you get a good one.
Probation act is like keeping the crime on record in case you do it again but not giving you a fine or conviction (again I think).

Don't worry too much as its no big deal. Very minor crime.

Why is shoplifting seen as a VERY MINOR CRIME ? and its no big deal?

Sorry as a shopkeeper its theft and it doesnt matter if its €5 or €50, thefts like these happen every week and very few make it to court. thefts like these cost jobs and businesses to be lost or go out of business.

If someone came up to you everyday and took €10 out of your wallet would you consider that a minor crime?

hate to see shoplifting treated as a minor irritation rather than the major problem for retailers that it is.

gugleguy · 30-10-2013 4:16pm

Giants like Aldi and Lidl take the loss of apparently "insignificant piffle" seriously as well. This sort of thing DOES impact business decisions taken in Head Office in Germany etc.

Holsten · 30-10-2013 7:48pm

Find yourself some proper legal representation.

You want the least amount of punishment they can legally give you, and that is what a solicitor will try to do for you.

Cody Pomeray · 30-10-2013 8:31pm

Shelflife wrote: »

Why is shoplifting seen as a VERY MINOR CRIME ? and its no big deal?

Sorry as a shopkeeper its theft and it doesnt matter if its €5 or €50, thefts like these happen every week and very few make it to court. thefts like these cost jobs and businesses to be lost or go out of business.

If someone came up to you everyday and took €10 out of your wallet would you consider that a minor crime?

hate to see shoplifting treated as a minor irritation rather than the major problem for retailers that it is.

I'm sorry for any person who is the victim of theft. I fully understand the motivation of the store in question, who I understand unfailingly pursue alleged shoplifters, and is a PR tactic that has probably saved them a lot of turnover.

Nevertheless, I think your "it doesn't matter if it's €5 or €50" narrative is a little overblown. Of course it matters. Legislators, public prosecutors, and the courts use the magnitude of damage inflicted in order to to distinguish how they treat different types of crime all the time. It's a cornerstone of our justice system.

It is regrettable that people do not have a more speedy, effective, and modern remedy available to them, and one which would not be so disproprotionately wasteful of public revenues, which is what this is.

Forgiveusall. · 01-11-2013 10:44pm

Shelflife wrote: »

Why is shoplifting seen as a VERY MINOR CRIME ? and its no big deal?

Sorry as a shopkeeper its theft and it doesnt matter if its €5 or €50, thefts like these happen every week and very few make it to court. thefts like these cost jobs and businesses to be lost or go out of business.

If someone came up to you everyday and took €10 out of your wallet would you consider that a minor crime?

hate to see shoplifting treated as a minor irritation rather than the major problem for retailers that it is.

God almighty?! Says a lot about our state that the organs of it are wasting their time with this-that we have no minimum figures for prosecution. We had 12 guards working in White collar crime section 2012.ONLY 12. Big companies -supermarkets have been ripping us off for years with highest EU prices and screwing their suppliers all in the name of what?
I have sympathy for a local shop but as for the big guys-none.
Do I steal? No. Is it right from them? Debatable as real stealing occurs all around us...

MissSilly · 02-11-2013 6:16pm

I got sorted guys.. Contacted the Garda who questioned me the first day.. went over my statement and the summons has been abolished and Im getting an adult caution. Thanks for the advice.

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-11-2013 6:21pm

MissSilly wrote: »

I got sorted guys.. Contacted the Garda who questioned me the first day.. went over my statement and the summons has been abolished and Im getting an adult caution. Thanks for the advice.

Just a bit of advice, turn up to court on the date of the summons, make sure your case is not listed, if it is go to Garda remind him of what was said and wait till matter is struck out.

MissSilly · 02-11-2013 6:36pm

I have to go to a District meeting in the next couple of weeks where they will issue the adult caution. The Garda said the Summons had been retracted by him and I signed an amended statement.

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-11-2013 6:39pm

MissSilly wrote: »

I have to go to a District meeting in the next couple of weeks where they will issue the adult caution. The Garda said the Summons had been retracted by him and I signed an amended statement.

I may be wrong but a summons can not be retracted, I remember on Judge who used to go mental when AGS asked him to strike out the summons. I believe what happens is that on the date the AGS tell the court there is no prosecution and the matter is struck out, the reason I say turn up it has been know for an error to have been made.

Santa Cruz · 02-11-2013 8:28pm

infosys wrote: »

I may be wrong but a summons can not be retracted, I remember on Judge who used to go mental when AGS asked him to strike out the summons. I believe what happens is that on the date the AGS tell the court there is no prosecution and the matter is struck out, the reason I say turn up it has been know for an error to have been made.

The prosecution can withdraw a charge at any time. Just clarify with the Superintendent that the case will not be going any further

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-11-2013 9:02pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

The prosecution can withdraw a charge at any time. Just clarify with the Superintendent that the case will not be going any further

I may be wrong but the only thing that can happen to the summons is the matter goes on or its struck out. I have had to run around a District to get a judge to extend time becauese it was forgotten by AGS to withdraw the case and strick it out. The summons has issued, to be safe I ALWAYS advise that people turn up when it's agreed to strike the matter out just in case. I have had a number of clients who had been banned from driving after agreeing to a strike out, 99% of the time it is struck out but errors happen.

Summons for theft

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