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WAN Ideas

13»

Comments

  • #102
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Originally posted by bkehoe
    Is Cork not going to be a community WAN any more??

    Its going to be Community only. Not commerical. I will talk to Rymus offlist about this. Meanwhile:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=86


  • #103
    rymus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    perhaps I should have made myself clearer when I said the dreaded word 'commercial'. I didnt want to frighten anyone :) What I meant is that there will be a body 'company' assigned to deal with the running of the network on a day to day basis. These arent going to be people that want to be paid £600+ a week to do this. It would be people involved personally in the project and doing it for the 'love' of it basically.

    Im of the opinion that if this thing wasnt setup like a 'real' ISP it wouldnt gain any real momentum in the long run. I'm aware that profit margins will be very low and indeed the only money that will be made from the service will in all likelyhood be ploughed back into network upgrades/installations etc. There would have to be some kind of hierarchy involved, otherwise no companies/professionals like Esat or this guy I know would touch us with a barge pole. The more professional and organised the better. All ISP's have departments, this should be no different. I'll end the mindless waffle now cos I've got to go to work.

    Yellum; We'll have to speak about this in great detail and hammer out a solid plan to get it off the ground. The sooner the better as far as Im concerned. Getting a trial going quickly is a top priority. talk to y'all later


  • #104
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Lets move the chat about commercial and community run wans there. Its not listed under the dhtml menus just yet but click here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/foru...p?s=&forumid=86

    Damien.


  • #105
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    http://www.irishwan.org/board/ has been set up for discussion on all sorts of WAN in Ireland. There are seperate forums for each community, and general forums for discussion, support, and for plans. Still gotta change colours, and get the logo sorted. :)


  • #106
    zenith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zenith


    Of course Cork is going to be a community WAN, and if rymus's capitalist running dog mate wants someone to write a business plan for him, he can employ someone to do it. :)

    There's no such thing as smart money: money has to buy smarts, and smart people make money pay.

    But enough politics: waiting around for commercial entities to supply the solutions is not a good idea. This WAN should fly on its own, even if there are other solutions available - the point being, we're doing it for fun, because we can, and because it just might work. It's not all about economics, but the fact that it's likely to save us all cash is a good start. Even if it only delivers 64k always on to everybody's house for, say, £400 setup and £200per , is that not good value? If schools get it for a pittance, is that not a good thing?


  • #107
    zenith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zenith


    MOD,

    Can we close this thread and move it to the new forums? It's getting quite unwieldy, and starting to lose focus.


  • #108
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    A number of Dublin people said they might be interested in meeting up informally. I have posted a thread on the IrishWan site here to get an of who's interested and to arrange a time and place.


  • #109
    jgmcbride
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭jgmcbride


    One big problem that I see that has not been addressed yet and
    is not technical.

    How do you regulate people's behaviour.

    I am a hog and I want it all and I want it free.

    I find out about a local wireless Lan project being up and running
    and I live near a site. Assuming that there is a simple registration
    process that I can defeat or there is none then I hop on free.

    Now that I am on (or have paid my iniitial fee) I start hogging the
    connection. I set up a home network and start downloading MP3
    files to several computers. All of a sudden our shared bandwidth
    is reduced for everyone. I don't really care since I have most of the process automated (resume on broken connection etc.).

    There needs to be some sort of a limit placed on access/download. This is something that needs to be thought of
    beforehand and not afterward.

    I am currently on a shared cable modem environment with new
    equipment switches, routers, fibre connections everywhere. Most of the time the system screams. However I do notice the peak usage times that correlate to peoples leisure time. It doesn't stop me browsing or even downloading. I just don't schedule large
    downloads for these times.

    Within the next few months I will probably install wireless Ethernet in my fixed wire home network just for experimentation purposes.

    For those interested in further reading on antenna gain/broadcasting I have seen and read several good articles about the feasability/implementation of such devices. Search the Web for futher info. One series of articles detailing his experiences in WAN networking was written by Robert Cringley.

    Hope that some of the above provides some food for thought.

    Incidentally I am a transplanted Irishman living in the US. Knowing that all computer equipment is much cheaper here I would be willing to do a certain amount of research regarding prices/availability here if there is interest. From preliminary checking that I have done I anticipate spending less than $200.00 for two cards and my base station.


  • #110
    Urban Weigl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭Urban Weigl


    jgmcbride, the WAN could adopt a policy of warning people who are abusing the available bandwidth, and disconnecting them if they do not stop. Moreover, a lot of applications like accessing an internal bulletin board and playing games on the network will not use any Internet bandwidth at all.

    IMHO another good idea would be to provide an internal file server on the WAN using Hotline. This would provide a multi-threaded discussion forum, news, chat and file sharing all in one. It also works on both Wintel and Mac computers, with 3rd party Linux clients and servers also available.


  • #111
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by jgmcbride
    One big problem that I see that has not been addressed yet and
    is not technical.

    How do you regulate people's behaviour.

    I am a hog and I want it all and I want it free.
    .

    Thats easy, There are a number of options around to packet shape traffic to stop a single user hogging all the bandwidth. Digging out some dusty bookmarks I find.

    http://www.ds9a.nl/2.4Routing/

    http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2000/08/24/LinuxAdmin.html

    for a start, there are other options out there.

    Especially if one uses something like WCCP to seamlessly cache all outgoing browser/ftp traffic. Its very easy then to packet shape connections going to/from the proxy server.


    greg


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  • #112
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Lucent access points have the ability to limit the speed for each user I beleive, so if a user was hogging bandwidth and slowing down others, he/she could be limited to say 512kbit, or 256kbit till they agree to stop. ;)


  • #113
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by bkehoe
    Lucent access points have the ability to limit the speed for each user I beleive, so if a user was hogging bandwidth and slowing down others, he/she could be limited to say 512kbit, or 256kbit till they agree to stop. ;)


    Depends on how clever their shaping is, Obviously you want a user to get bandwidth in proportion to how many others are online at the some time, combined with some some time based queueing system that would lower the priority of large downloads, keeping interactive browsing type tasks maximally responsive for everyone else.


    greg


  • #114
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Yep. But remember the speed limits would be for everything on the network, not just the net. I beleive that everyone should not be capped on the access points, but just there be some kind of cap on the net connection). So the primary internet access gateway for a community should run some form of linux, squid to keep caching, and traffic shaping, possibly QoS. MRTG should also be set up, so the performance could be monitored on both the gateway and the access point in general.


  • #115
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by bkehoe
    MRTG should also be set up, so the performance could be monitored on both the gateway and the access point in general.

    I prefer Cricket

    http://cricket.sourceforge.net/

    One can do all kinds of useful graphing with just about any time series data, last use I made of it, graphed out the amount of entries in the FW-1 connections table, most handy at the time and very easy to setup.


    greg


  • #116
    rymus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    Originally posted by zenith
    and if rymus's capitalist running dog mate wants someone to write a business plan for him, he can employ someone to do it. :)

    That had better not be a dig against me u bollicks :) Im only tryin to feckin help after all


  • #117
    zenith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zenith


    re: capitalist running dog comment - I was only slagging. Sorry! I know you're helping.


  • #118
    The Cigarette Smoking Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 649 ✭✭✭The Cigarette Smoking Man


    I was thinking about the idea of a scalable WAN for Dublin and I think we should create a backbone network and divide it up into different subnets. If we use this model we'll get the most coverage and we'll also get the most bandwidth. The more bandwidth everyone gets the more likely they'll use it rather than DSL etc.

    We should also have an ftp server and DNS servers. Another good idea (long term) would be to slap an aerial up on the roof of the building that runs the INEX and we could get a direct connection into all of the Irish ISPs.

    I might have a good spot for one of the backbone nodes and some bandwidth too :)

    PS: I like the idea of putting a node in Howth.


  • #119
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Re Backbones;
    The main IrishWAN.org communities will be linked by 11MBit backbones. This can be increased to 22MBit if needed by using 2 antennas and cards; vertical and horizontal polarity. What happens in each community is up to the person/people organising it. For example, I only have a say in what happens in Wexford, and possibly Waterford, and can only offer advice to the other communities if needed (which can also be got on the irishwan forums). All each community needs to do is follow the IP assignments, which will be discussed among the leaders of each community.

    Servers will be set up for caching, traffic shaping, e.t.c. in each community, as well as to hold useful utilities for network stuff, and any security patches, e.t.c. After that, users can share files with each other, e.t.c.


  • #120
    The Cigarette Smoking Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 649 ✭✭✭The Cigarette Smoking Man


    Are we going to use RIPE assigned IP addresses or private address ranges? If you use a public IP address range for an area like Dublin with multiple subnets, you'd need a good few addresses. I'm not sure about RIPE, but in the US you have to pay for IP addresses.

    I think a centralised ftp server would be a good idea, you can't beat 10Mbps downloads :)


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  • #121
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Private IPs, like most other WANS.


  • #122
    Balfa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭Balfa


    c'mon folks, post on the irishwan.org boards. They were set up for a reason... no point in us flicking back and forth between this and them.

    take it here: http://www.irishwan.org/board/


  • #123
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by bkehoe
    Re Backbones;
    The main IrishWAN.org communities will be linked by 11MBit backbones. This can be increased to 22MBit if needed by using 2 antennas and cards; .

    Given the ****e (sorry excerable :-) ) security of WEP, I would recommend the tunnelling all wireless traffic through something a bit more robust, Given that you have a PIX to work with. PPTP (despite its flaws) would very straightforward to use for Win32 & Linux users.

    You dont want some scrote freeloading off all the hard work.


    greg


  • #124
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by The Cigarette Smoking Man
    Are we going to use RIPE assigned IP addresses or private address ranges? If you use a public IP address range for an area like Dublin with multiple subnets, you'd need a good few addresses. I'm not sure about RIPE, but in the US you have to pay for IP addresses.


    Christ no :-), Have you ever tried getting public addresses from RIPE ? It would be easier to shove a bowling ball through the ringpiece of a terrier! It took me from the end of Aug last year till November to get a /24 for a project I was e-security lead on, http://www.mlhsbc.co.uk/. That despite lieing convincingly through my teeth on the paperwork & having a large corporate clout (so I thought) it counts for nothing. Concerts RIPE admin was a RFPITA.

    You want nice RFC1918 space internally, properly subnetted so one can summarise for OSPF/iBGP whatever later on.


    greg


  • #125
    The Cigarette Smoking Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 649 ✭✭✭The Cigarette Smoking Man


    Originally posted by cmkrnl


    Christ no :-), Have you ever tried getting public addresses from RIPE ? It would be easier to shove a bowling ball through the ringpiece of a terrier! It took me from the end of Aug last year till November to get a /24 for a project I was e-security lead on, http://www.mlhsbc.co.uk/. That despite lieing convincingly through my teeth on the paperwork & having a large corporate clout (so I thought) it counts for nothing. Concerts RIPE admin was a RFPITA.

    You want nice RFC1918 space internally, properly subnetted so one can summarise for OSPF/iBGP whatever later on.


    greg

    I have to agree, private IPs would be better in this situation.

    Another Q: Can you configure squid to do load balancing? We'll probably end up with multiple Internet Connections at each of the backbone nodes.


  • #126
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by The Cigarette Smoking Man


    I have to agree, private IPs would be better in this situation.

    Another Q: Can you configure squid to do load balancing? We'll probably end up with multiple Internet Connections at each of the backbone nodes.

    Not within squid itself, You could however use an L4 switch or if you fancied rolling your own something like

    http://www.linuxvirtualserver.org/

    or

    http://ultramonkey.sourceforge.net/

    to do the job for you.

    Ideally one wants the proxies to be seamless using something WCCP/ipfilter to redirect outbound port 80 traffic rather than configured directly in the browser. This means you can then use the networking hardware to handle failure/failover/LB automatically rather than the users.

    I have in the past used Foundary ServerIrons to LB FW1 on Linux & they really were sweet.


    greg


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  • #127
    Urban Weigl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭Urban Weigl


    An alternative to 802.11b is 2-way MMDS. This requires I believe a license, but that shouldn't be too hard to get -- especially if it's a community-based thing. This is the technology used by Chorus for their PowerNet service.

    Just thought I would point out that there is an alternative, as 802.11b (or what Apple calls AirPort) has been talked about exclusively at the moment. Check out this results page on Google for lots of information on 2-way MMDS:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=2-way+MMDS


  • #128
    The Cigarette Smoking Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 649 ✭✭✭The Cigarette Smoking Man


    Originally posted by cmkrnl


    Not within squid itself, You could however use an L4 switch or if you fancied rolling your own something like

    http://www.linuxvirtualserver.org/

    or

    http://ultramonkey.sourceforge.net/

    to do the job for you.

    Ideally one wants the proxies to be seamless using something WCCP/ipfilter to redirect outbound port 80 traffic rather than configured directly in the browser. This means you can then use the networking hardware to handle failure/failover/LB automatically rather than the users.

    I have in the past used Foundary ServerIrons to LB FW1 on Linux & they really were sweet.


    greg

    You going to donate a ServerIron Greg? :)

    How many users can each of the Omni Direction antennas take? Also, do they interfere with each other?


  • #129
    cmkrnl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭cmkrnl


    Originally posted by The Cigarette Smoking Man


    You going to donate a ServerIron Greg? :)


    I wish :-), however I have it on good authority ;-) that the cheap NetIron L2 switches are functionally identical to the ServerIron XL. One firmware flash later 'et voila' :-)


    greg


  • #130
    Bard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,309 ✭✭✭✭Bard


    By request, this thread is being moved to the "Wireless" board, which would, apparently, be a more appropriate home for it.


  • #131
    trap4
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 468 ✭✭trap4


    Hello all,

    I'm just catching up with this extreeeeemely interesting topic now. As one of the people who was kicked of Surf (No) Limits I would love to get one of these networks up and going.

    I'm in west Limerick (near Newcastlewest). Anyone else from hereabouts? I'd like to get one of these nets going in this region. Can bkehoe create a Limerick forum on IrishWan.org? And talking about that site, is anyone else having problems accessing the forums on it? Everytime I try to get in there it prompts me to download a file!

    By the way, am I even posting this in the right thread at this stage? Has this conversation moved elsewhere?

    Thanks,


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  • #132
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Ehh trap, since this thread was removed from the forum where it had the most interest, no one it really applies to can see it any more.

    Anyway, Limerick was created yesterday, and Moriarty, the Limerick admin will have a website up at the weekend.

    All the relevent conversation for the Irish WAN is taking place in the Irishwan.org forums.

    You are the only person getting that. Cause: a browser thats pretending to the server it supports HTTP 1.1, but doesn't actually know what to expect when the server compresses the data being sent to it. As I said in reply to your comment, you should make sure that if you're using a proxy, HTTP 1.1 is enabled in your browser config. If that doesn't apply to you, you must be using a very old browser, or one with a bad config.

    Brendan


  • #133
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Originally posted by bkehoe
    You are the only person getting that. Cause: a browser thats pretending to the server it supports HTTP 1.1, but doesn't actually know what to expect when the server compresses the data being sent to it. As I said in reply to your comment, you should make sure that if you're using a proxy, HTTP 1.1 is enabled in your browser config. If that doesn't apply to you, you must be using a very old browser, or one with a bad config.

    Brendan

    'Fraid not Brendan,

    I can't access the forums either. I'm using IE5 and not going through any proxy settings. The relevant point to note however is that I'm on a mac.

    No problems with other varied forums.

    cheers,
    alastair


  • #134
    bkehoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    I have reluctantly disabled compression, as it will more than double the time needed to load mainly text pages in the forums.

    People who have browsers that say that they're HTTP 1.1 compliant but don't work with it, should look for a newer version, or use a broswer like Opera, so that I can enable it again.

    Brendan


  • #135
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Thanks Brendan,

    I'm in now. It's all flying along merrily. I don't think there's any problem with the current download times.

    alastair


  • #136
    Ivan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭Ivan


    I was having the exact same problems.
    As far as I know the IE is up-to-date but we are going through a proxy.

    Just leave it as is? - seems a fair few people were having trouble with it.


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