Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

First Irish born Golden Eagle for 100 years found poisoned in Sligo

  • 02-03-2010 9:00pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0302/breaking72.html

    The first few days of spring and the same old problem in the West of Ireland with the activities of a handfull of sheep farmers rears its ugly head again. Reading the article its obvious neither the Dept of Agriculture or government give a dam:mad:
    Tagged:


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,392 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Surely it isn't exactly rocket science to determine whose sheep carcass it was and/or whose land it was found on? Same goes for the other cases last year. Were any actual prosecutions made in those cases?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Alun wrote: »
    Surely it isn't exactly rocket science to determine whose sheep carcass it was and/or whose land it was found on? Same goes for the other cases last year. Were any actual prosecutions made in those cases?

    Despite the fact that stuff like natural heritage is the bedrock of our tourism industry, crimes like this are just not taken seriously by the authorities - if it was, throwing uncovered poison bait around the countryside would have been banned long ago as is the case in most advanced Western countries:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭marlin vs


    Another sad day,hill farmer's are getting themselves some bad name, even if it is only a minority which I don't believe, they're living in the dark ages and still think that the eagles are the devill's in the skye's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    http://www.goldeneagle.ie/news_viewnews.php?x=5&z=132&news_id=11&article=262

    The above is the Irish Golden Eagle Trust latest Press release on this - scroll down to the section on the Irish Farmers Journal shamfull role in all this:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭marlin vs




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Connacht


    Conall, barely 10 months old, was recently found brutally killed in the mountains of the Sligo Leitrim border.

    Not the first child of his kind to have his short life savagely ended in this disgusting way, serious questions must be asked of the supposed law enforcement authorities in this country and of those charged with the care of such a young boy.

    How can people who poison the likes of Conall still be out there, rather than in prison, where they clearly belong ? How many people are there willfully poisoning their neighbours in this fashion ? How difficult can it really be to apprehend and punish severely those who willfully poison others ?

    The communities in which this type of scandalous act of killing occur, whether Sligo, Leitrim, Kerry, or wherever, are small. Johnny knows Mick and Mick knows Billy. Get out and catch them and spare our society these criminals, who have no compassion, much less love, for those we share this island nation with.

    But more questions :
    How can Scotland and Norway continue to send their children to our shores, to be put up against this wanton destruction ? How can their governments allow the exporting of their defenceless sons and daughters to another country where, seemingly, nothing or not enough is done to protect them ?

    Shame on Scotland. Shame on Norway. Most of all, shame on Ireland. I am disgusted by all three of you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,392 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Connacht wrote: »
    How difficult can it really be to apprehend and punish severely those who willfully poison others ?
    This was my point ... a poisoned carcass is found on farmer X's land with dead eagle nearby, farmer X is guilty, end of, no need for lengthy 'investigations' that lead nowhere, or bringing in Sherlock Holmes, or Poirot. Make a show case of him. Make sure every single person in the surrounding area knows who it was and what he did, and what the consequences of such actions are. Makes me sick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    http://www.goldeneagle.ie/news_viewnews.php?x=5&z=132&news_id=11&article=262

    The above is the Irish Golden Eagle Trust latest Press release on this - scroll down to the section on the Irish Farmers Journal shamfull role in all this:mad:

    Yes, the farmers journal should have been more responsible and at least mentioned tieing down and covering the bait to obstruct it from the view of passing birds of prey. It seems they dont even care :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,730 ✭✭✭E39MSport


    I just emailed the editor of the Farmers Journal and told him what I think of him and some of his customers. His email address is in the contact link when you google the Journal.

    I also asked him to publish an editorial asking Farmers to stop the illegal slaughter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Alun wrote: »
    This was my point ... a poisoned carcass is found on farmer X's land with dead eagle nearby, farmer X is guilty, end of, no need for lengthy 'investigations' that lead nowhere, or bringing in Sherlock Holmes, or Poirot. Make a show case of him. Make sure every single person in the surrounding area knows who it was and what he did, and what the consequences of such actions are. Makes me sick.

    So if a dead body is found in your front garden you are automatically the murderer?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 21,392 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    So if a dead body is found in your front garden you are automatically the murderer?
    No, but that's not really the same thing is it? Or are you suggesting that it's a normal thing for farmers to dump poisoned carcasses on other farmers' lands just for the fun of it? It may not stand up to the rigours of some smart-arse defence lawyer's arguments, but it's good enough for me in this case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    It is exactly the same thing.

    From ingestion of the illegally poisoned carcass how long would it take for the bird to die? There is nothing to stop someone from trespassing and dumping, just look at fly tipping there are people that have no shame. *Where* on the farmers land was it found, was it in the middle or near a boundary?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josephine Thankful Ice-skate


    Disgusted as I am by this I'm not going to get dragged into this thread but I must point out that poisoned birds often die 5km or more from the source of the poisoning. Also, landowners are not always responsible. I have come across cases where the poisoning was by Gun Clubs and others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    Disgusted as I am by this I'm not going to get dragged into this thread but I must point out that poisoned birds often die 5km or more from the source of the poisoning. Also, landowners are not always responsible. I have come across cases where the poisoning was by Gun Clubs and others.

    And quite a lot of uplands are commonage, with several different farmers grazing their flocks on it.

    The law is almost unenforcable anyway. I was talking to an NPWS ranger a while back who acted on a tip-off that some one was shooting protected Brent geese. Although the culprit was caught with a shotgun and several dead geese, he could not be prosecuted because no witness had actualy seen him shoot at and kill a goose. Being in posession a licensed gun and claiming to have picked up a few dead geese that some one else had shot was enough of a story to evade justice. I'd imagine the poisoner(s) in the eagle case would have to be caught red handed spiking the carcass and then leaving it unattended for any prosecution to be brought:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,392 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    From ingestion of the illegally poisoned carcass how long would it take for the bird to die? There is nothing to stop someone from trespassing and dumping, just look at fly tipping there are people that have no shame. *Where* on the farmers land was it found, was it in the middle or near a boundary?
    In this case, I don't know, but in a previous case the body of the eagle was found within a few metres of a poisoned carcass, but the I suppose it would then be argued that you couldn't actually prove that it was that particular carcass that caused the demise of that particular bird. Sometimes the law is indeed an ass as Dickens' Mr. Bumble rightly said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    In this case it should not be too hard to pinpoint where the bird was poisoned though.

    The bird had an electronic tracker on it which can show the exact movements and locations. of the bird.

    Should not be too hard to take the bird's final resting place and work back the short distance to where it last fed.

    From what I understand, the poison involved would have been fairly quick to bring the bird down, so most likely he fell a few km from where he fed.

    So the tracker will show him stopping for the last time, it will show the short flight to that point, and more importantly it will show the bird stopping to feed before that last flight.

    Personally speaking any farmer caught putting out a poisoned carcass on his own lands should be hit with the full weight of the law, as it would kill anything that went near the carcass, and in turn anything that fed on the animal that fed on the carcass and so on.

    I would also go as far as to say that any found guilty should lose the right to any grants, tax reliefs, or subsidies, because if they are capable of being that irresponsible to any wild or domestic animals that may be in the area, who knows what other short cuts they get up to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Alun wrote: »
    In this case, I don't know, but in a previous case the body of the eagle was found within a few metres of a poisoned carcass, but the I suppose it would then be argued that you couldn't actually prove that it was that particular carcass that caused the demise of that particular bird. Sometimes the law is indeed an ass as Dickens' Mr. Bumble rightly said.

    Would imagine that it would be easy enough to prove that a dead bird was killed by eating some of the poisoned carcass it was found beside.

    Would simply be a case of opening up the bird and matching it's stomach contents to the carcass, and matching the poison.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Probably ate down my local chipper!! Being serious though I can see where these people are coming from. If it were my lively hood I would have to take action aswell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josephine Thankful Ice-skate


    Being serious though I can see where these people are coming from. If it were my lively hood I would have to take action aswell.

    You've lost me there. Do you mean that farmers need to kill Eagles to protect their flocks? If so, it just shows the level of ignorance there is out there.:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Probably ate down my local chipper!! Being serious though I can see where these people are coming from. If it were my lively hood I would have to take action aswell.



    And how were their livelihoods being impacted upon by the birds? Funny how the Golden Eagle can exist in larger numbers in other European countries and not impact upon the livelihoods of sheep farmers in the same areas as the eagles.


    Also the Golden Eagle in Europe tends to be smaller than those found in North America, The American based Golden Eagles can weigh 18lbs to 20lbs which is up to 50% heavier than it's European counterparts.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭greeneyedspirit


    Probably ate down my local chipper!! Being serious though I can see where these people are coming from. If it were my lively hood I would have to take action aswell.

    'Take action'? You do know that eagles are scavengers? They're glorified vultures, eat things that are already dead (which is why they end up with the poison in their systems. Dead poisened bait, not a lamb jumping around that's snatched by the bird).

    I'm terribly saddenend by this news - it's ridiculous how people can just get away with killing off these magnificient birds. And the fact that the farmer's journal even endorsed laying poisoned bait is horrific. Simply covering the poisoned bait would render it a lot less visible/invisible to passing birds of prey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Alun wrote: »
    This was my point ... a poisoned carcass is found on farmer X's land with dead eagle nearby, farmer X is guilty

    For someone talking so much about law and legalities you know SFA about it. Your statement may be good enough for your own biased mind, thankfully more balanced and rational thinking people are involved with our laws and their enforcement.

    I hope your X thousand other posts are of considerable higher quality than the above ill thought out tripe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    utter scum.

    As its near impossible to prosecute they'll only listen to retalitory attacks - perhaps they'd stop if their eu grants were dependent on eagles not being poisoned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,392 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    johngalway wrote: »
    For someone talking so much about law and legalities you know SFA about it. Your statement may be good enough for your own biased mind, thankfully more balanced and rational thinking people are involved with our laws and their enforcement.

    I hope your X thousand other posts are of considerable higher quality than the above ill thought out tripe.
    I never said I knew anything about the law, merely expressing the frustration I and many others experience when offences like this go unpunished because the burden of proof is raised so high that it often proves virtually impossible to prosecute successfully.

    So, instead of resorting to petty personal insults, why don't you give us your esteemed opinion on the matter?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josephine Thankful Ice-skate


    perhaps they'd stop if their eu grants were dependent on eagles not being poisoned.

    Whose EU grants? Every farm in the area? Every farmer with animals on that commage? Surely only the guilty party and if they can be identified then the loss of a grant will be the least of their worries. The person, or group, who laid the poison may not be in receipt of any grants, as they may not be farmers (it has happened before).
    Let's talk reason here and not, maddening as it is, just fly off the handle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Alun wrote: »
    I never said I knew anything about the law, merely expressing the frustration I and many others experience when offences like this go unpunished because the burden of proof is raised so high that it often proves virtually impossible to prosecute successfully.

    So, instead of resorting to petty personal insults, why don't you give us your esteemed opinion on the matter?

    If I had wished to comment on the incident I would have done so. You needed to be taken to task for silly statements like the one you made above. Proof is needed in this country to convict someone of a crime. As one poster said above, if some dead animal or person is found on your property, that does not mean you killed that animal or person. You would expect such allowances to be made for yourself in that case, but not others it seems.

    If you're unable to back your own statements I would suggest you don't so easily attack others, they may actually have something to say about you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    Is there not a simple short term solution here. Farmers should just cover any bait they use with a tied down camoflaged net, or else just get a hunter to cull any problem foxes. If it is hooded crows they are after they could use non meat based poison.
    I cant see any reason why a hill farmer would disagree with this solution?


  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Tester46


    Yes, the farmers journal should have been more responsible and at least mentioned tieing down and covering the bait to obstruct it from the view of passing birds of prey. It seems they dont even care :confused:

    But hang on, isn't the point that this type of poisoning is now illegal? So isn't the Farmers Journal actively advising its readership on methods of committing a crime?

    Just like the head of the ICSA tried to cover up this disgraceful, illegal and backward behaviour by saying that the Golden Eagle Trust should have advised farmers in the Sligo area of the presence of the eagle and then they might have temporarily stopped their illegal activities - so now it's the Golden Eagle Trust's fault.

    The only way to deal with these law-breaking farmers is to hit them where it hurts. Even though they wail and moan and whinge about how they are the unappreciated and underpaid custodians of the countryside, the reality is that they don't give two shi*es about the countryside if they can make more cash by abusing it. So, when an eagle is found poisoned, have immediate inspections of all farms in the vicinity. And any farmer caught will have his single farm payments removed for a year. Another poster has already pointed out that the stomach contents of a poisoned eagle can be matched to a poisoned carcass found in the inspections. That should be sufficient proof and avoid good farmers being unjustly punished. It'll stop the poisoning. No point appealing to the backward farmers' better nature - they don't have one.

    If you want to complain to the people who matter (and you should) email:

    Minister Environment - [email protected]

    Minister Agriculture - [email protected]

    Editor, Irish Farmers Journal, Matt Dempsey - [email protected]

    Go on, do one quick email now to all three, you know you want to :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,392 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    johngalway wrote: »
    Proof is needed in this country to convict someone of a crime.
    So, in a case like the one described, what level of proof would you consider reasonable to achieve a prosecution? It's hardly the kind of case where you're either likely to catch someone red handed or have witnesses, after all, so unless you accept a certain degree of circumstantial evidence, you're never going to prosecute anybody, and in that case what's the point of having a law that's effectively unenforceable?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭greeneyedspirit


    Is there not a simple short term solution here. Farmers should just cover any bait they use with a tied down camoflaged net, or else just get a hunter to cull any problem foxes. If it is hooded crows they are after they could use non meat based poison.
    I cant see any reason why a hill farmer would disagree with this solution?

    That would be the start to a solution, yes. I have a feeling, though, that (some) farmers still feel threatened by the eagles and are convinced that they will take their lambs. So it's probably a fair amount of ignorance, combined with fear, that's keeping the farmers from taking simple measures like covering the poisoned carcass.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement