i'm not the only conspiracy theorist!

Ulstermell0 · 27-09-2007 10:32am #1

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/09/26/conspiracy_theories_abound_as.html

doesnt mean a lot and not too well substantiated but worth a read.

also like this readers comment - about ulster players:

"But the biggest conspiracy of all is the one George Hook outlined in this august journal just days ago - that the Irish team is fatally weakened by Ulster "punching above it's weight" in the selection committee room - I never realised that the IRFU was so controlled by the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland - but it was in the Guardian so it must be true! (and of course the only person in the selection committe room is Eddie O'Sullivan sonhe must be a closet Orangeman!)
Except of course the exact opposite is true - an Ulster player has to be twice as good as a southerner to get half as many game for Ireland (David Humphreys/Ronan O'Gara - I rest my case!)."

TarfHead · 27-09-2007 4:24pm

Ulstermell0 wrote:

an Ulster player has to be twice as good as a southerner to get half as many game for Ireland"

What about "The Easteners" (aka Leinster) and "The Westerners" (aka Connacht) ? What's your equation for that

?

RugBeir · 27-09-2007 4:34pm

Ulstermell0 wrote:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/09/26/conspiracy_theories_abound_as.html

doesnt mean a lot and not too well substantiated but worth a read.

also like this readers comment - about ulster players:

"But the biggest conspiracy of all is the one George Hook outlined in this august journal just days ago - that the Irish team is fatally weakened by Ulster "punching above it's weight" in the selection committee room - I never realised that the IRFU was so controlled by the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland - but it was in the Guardian so it must be true! (and of course the only person in the selection committe room is Eddie O'Sullivan so he must be a closet Orangeman!)
Except of course the exact opposite is true - an Ulster player has to be twice as good as a southerner to get half as many game for Ireland (David Humphreys/Ronan O'Gara - I rest my case!)."

Your right Ulstermell0 and I have to agree with you at the moment. With the recent dominance of Munster and Leinster the Ulster guys have to work harder to get a look in. I certainly agree that David Humphreys was treated poorly and was too good a player to be left sitting on the bench. If only we had him now.

But I suspect these things go in cycles. When Ulster become dominant again you will find the opposite occurring. I wouldnt pay much heed to Gorge Hook - hes just your average typical 26 county free stater! They dont want a Northerner around the place, Orange or Green!

I am a 32 county man myself, both in politics and sport!

Marshy · 27-09-2007 4:39pm

Ulstermell0 wrote:

Except of course the exact opposite is true - an Ulster player has to be twice as good as a southerner to get half as many game for Ireland (David Humphreys/Ronan O'Gara - I rest my case!)."

Humphreys twice as good as O'Gara.... yeah ok. :rolleyes:

And ROG only has 4 more caps than him.

Killme00 · 27-09-2007 4:46pm

What about the English, Welsh and French based Irish players. Surely they deserve a fair crack too!!

Erin Go Brath · 27-09-2007 4:51pm

Ulstermell0 wrote:

Except of course the exact opposite is true - an Ulster player has to be twice as good as a southerner to get half as many game for Ireland (David Humphreys/Ronan O'Gara - I rest my case!)."

What a load of rubbish. The Ulster lads there are just not good enough. Trimble got his big break, and he was probably the worst player on the team. Flannery is better than R. Best whos got loads of games in a green jersey. ROG is a better player than Humphries, although he's having a 'mare of a tournament. In fact in any position from 1 to 15, I can't see any Ulsterman who would nail down a starting spot.

You're just being parochial. Theres no requirement for Ireland to have 4 Munster, 4 Leinster, 4 Ulster, token Connacht and exiles in the team. :rolleyes:

marco_polo · 27-09-2007 4:55pm

RugBeir wrote:

Your right Ulstermell0 and I have to agree with you at the moment. With the recent dominance of Munster and Leinster the Ulster guys have to work harder to get a look in. I certainly agree that David Humphreys was treated poorly and was too good a player to be left sitting on the bench. If only we had him now.

But I suspect these things go in cycles. When Ulster become dominant again you will find the opposite occurring. I wouldnt pay much heed to Gorge Hook - hes just your average typical 26 county free stater! They dont want a Northerner around the place, Orange or Green!

I am a 32 county man myself, both in politics and sport!

That is pure revisionism, O'Gara was the better player by the time Humpreys was dropped permanently to the bench for Ireland. Whatever reasons he has never publically stated he retired from international rugby. If it was because he was not in the starting 15 then that is a poor reflection on himself not on the team management. Are you suggesting that players should not now be dropped in case they retire? Selection policy is bad enough as it is.

As for the Ulster players perhaps Neil Best can be a little miffed at not getting more game time, because Easterby does blow hot and cold, but when he had possesion of the number 6 shirt he lost it through his poor form for Ulster after Christmas. Similarly when Trimble was on form in or around 2006 he was the first choice starting winger, then he lost some form around the same time that Hickie started playing the best rugby of his career and so was dropped. Rory Best was the first choice hooker after Flannery got injured and had retained the jersey when Flannery recovered because he was in such good form, only losing out for the France game through injury. It remains to be seen who will get the nod against Argentina.

To say that the current management has some anti ulster bias is ridiculous. It is not like there is an Ulster player in the squad who is head and shoulders above his rival and is not getting a game, all three of those positions I mentioned would be very tight calls.

LuckyLloyd · 27-09-2007 5:02pm

Killme00 wrote:

What about the English, Welsh and French based Irish players. Surely they deserve a fair crack too!!

Again, as Marshy and EringoBrath note in relation to Ulster players, a lot of the "exiles" are overhyped and undeserving of selection.

Johnny O' Connor was proven to be lacking at International level. Murphy has never replicated his consistency for Leicester while in an Irish jersey. The likes of Stuanton and Burke couldn't get past O' Gara at Munster.

Bob Casey is probably the one player with a legitimate greivance. When he fell out of the international reckoning after the 2000 clearout it was perfectly justifiable at the time. But he clearly improved and at some point during 2005 - 2006 he should have been given a chance. Whether he would have done enough to oust either O' Connell or O' Callaghan is another question altogether (you need to forget the last three - five games when you consider that point btw).

Racking my brains a little more, maybe Jennings should have seen more game time. And Brennan definitely warranted inclusion in the squad as an impact sub on the basis of the ferocity he was capable of bringing to defending and the loose.

But I think, largely speaking, the best of what we have is in Ireland. Or more specifically - with Leinster and Munster.

Marshy · 27-09-2007 5:03pm

Here are the stats, make your own mind up:

Ronan O'Gara- 76 caps, 774 points

David Humphreys- 72 caps, 560 points

RugBeir · 27-09-2007 5:05pm

Marshy wrote:

Humphreys twice as good as O'Gara.... yeah ok. :rolleyes:

And ROG only has 4 more caps than him.

I think you miss the point Marshy. He said he has to be twice as good to get selected, not say he is! But saying he is as good and arguably better but not so much better to get selected!! An dtigeann tú?

Personally never seen Humphreys or Paddy Wallace play as bad as ROG is playing at the moment.

LuckyLloyd · 27-09-2007 5:18pm

Marshy wrote:

Here are the stats, make your own mind up:

Ronan O'Gara- 76 caps, 774 points

David Humphreys- 72 caps, 560 points

You can also add to those conclusive numbers the question of how many really topclass wins were achieved with Humphreys in the no.10 shirt?

Snickers Man · 27-09-2007 5:35pm

Ulstermell0 wrote:

"But the biggest conspiracy of all is the one George Hook outlined in this august journal just days ago - that the Irish team is fatally weakened by Ulster "punching above it's weight" in the selection committee room

That's a bit bloody rich coming from a Cork man like Hook. If any region was guilty of "punching above its weight in the selection committee room" it was Cork, thanks in particular the malign influence of Cork Constitution.

At the risk of incurring the mods' wrath for veering dangerously close to a Leinster/Munster slagging match, let me hasten to point out that the most bitter complainants about the unwarranted influence of Cork in general and Cork Con in particular on selection matters have always been, in my experience, Limerick rugby fans. They get shafted twice, at national and provincial level.

And in fact, Hook himself is well aware of the influence of Cork Con. I well remember him discussing on TV the likely selection of players for the 2001 Lions tour to Australia before that tour. O'Gara's name came up as a dark horse possibility. (He was only in his second season and at that stage he was still not entrusted by Ireland with an entire match. Humphreys would always replace him for much of the second half)

"He's a cast-iron certainty," blustered George. "He's a Cork Con man. So is the manager (Donal Lenihan) Of course he's going to be selected"

And indeed he was.

But we are talking history here.
There is no such thing as a "Selection committee room" now. The coach has sole responsibility for picking the team. O'Sullivan has in the past picked Irish teams without a single Ulsterman. Most of the Ulster players in this team are on the bench. They are well worth their places. Neil Best should be starting IMHO. Rory Best is way better than Sheahan and a very adequate alternative to Flannery.

Trimble is being messed around a bit and not properly used. He is also out of form. Wallace should have been given more game time as a matter of contingency. He might have to come into the team as a total stranger should O'Gara get hurt, or if his play deteriorates any further.

Conspiracy theory, my arse.

Snickers Man · 27-09-2007 5:37pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

You can also add to those conclusive numbers the question of how many really topclass wins were achieved with Humphreys in the no.10 shirt?

France v Ireland Stade de France 2000. It was Humphreys who scored the winning penalty.

Ireland v England 2001 He was the starting out half.

That's just two off the top of my head.

RugBeir · 27-09-2007 5:41pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

You can also add to those conclusive numbers the question of how many really topclass wins were achieved with Humphreys in the no.10 shirt?

But is it right to attribute topclass wins to the outhalf on his own? Would not the composition and performance of the rest of the team also have a bearing on the result? In which case further analysis would have to be done dont you think?

What would it prove anyway? Hardly Humphreys fault if the manager fails to select him against topclass opposition?

To be fair to him he has always been very professional and given his best for Ireland. True he has had a bad day now and again, but who hasnt. ROG at his his best could be better than Humphreys, I agree. But sadly he is far from that at the moment!

LuckyLloyd · 27-09-2007 6:01pm

RugBeir wrote:

To be fair to him he has always been very professional and given his best for Ireland.

So did Paul Burke. So have a lot of players. So what.

RugBeir wrote:

True he has had a bad day now and again, but who hasnt.

Humphreys has had A LOT of bad days for Ireland. A lot of days where the first penalty would be wide; the first kick to touch out on the full - and the whole thing would disintegrate rapidly.

RugBeir wrote:

ROG at his his best could be better than Humphreys, I agree.

Let's get this straight. Make it crystal clear. At his best, ROG is a MUCH, MUCH more accomplished outhalf than David Humphrey's. He is tougher; he manages a game better; he deals with pressure situations better.

RugBeir wrote:

But sadly he is far from that at the moment!

Yeah, and it is unfortunate. So what. What is your point? Humphreys was injured coming up to this world cup. Humphreys declined to make himself available anymore.

Over the last seven years Irish rugby has become competative again. A lot of big wins and a lot of big performances with O' Gara leading the way. He has become widely accepted as being the premier bad weather outhalf in the world. He has been an integral part of a Munster team that has sent shivers down the back of any true Irish sports fan on countless occassions. He played the miracle matches - and you'll need something along those lines on Sunday.

Being out of form doesn't wipe away all the good work he has done in an Irish jersey. A couple of bad games doesn't make him a bad player.

Humphrey's doesn't have more caps because there was always a tougher and more reliable out - half in his way. His lack of selection has nothing to do with an anti - ulster bias; or bias of any nature.

Imhof Tank · 27-09-2007 8:04pm

Snickers Man wrote:

"
There is no such thing as a "Selection committee room" now. The coach has sole responsibility for picking the team.

Yes, but have you noticed that when commenting on selection issues, Eddie always uses the third person plural - as in "WE thought long and hard about it..........", "WE decided not to disrupt the backrow unit......." etc, etc

RugBeir · 27-09-2007 9:55pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Humphreys has had A LOT of bad days for Ireland. A lot of days where the first penalty would be wide; the first kick to touch out on the full - and the whole thing would disintegrate rapidly.

In my opinion his excellent performances for Ireland far outweighed his bad ones. I think, again, your are wrong to suggest that a bad performance by a team can be attributed to one player. And certainly unfair to attribute total fault to a player who gave great service for Ireland. If you want to talk about for bad days for Ireland - Wales V Ireland 2005(Welsh grand slam), Ireland V France 2005 , Ireland V France 2007, the RWC 2007 .. et cetera

Let's get this straight. Make it crystal clear. At his best, ROG is a MUCH, MUCH more accomplished outhalf than David Humphrey's. He is tougher; he manages a game better; he deals with pressure situations better.

Your entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree with you, Crystal? IMO Humphreys on his day was every bit as good. He had certain attributes that were better than ROG and vice versa. They have different styles which are better suited to different situations. I dont deny ROG has shown brilliant performances for Munster in the European campaign? But so has Humphreys for Ulster and captained them to the HEC long before ROG and Munster.

His lack of selection has nothing to do with an anti - ulster bias; or bias of any nature.

Good point LuckyLloyd, which I totally agree with. It cant be proven that this is an exmple of anti-Ulster bias. Otherwise you may as well say Geordan Murphys treatment is an example of anti-Leinster bias, which of course it is not. But I do understand when people speculate that there was an anti David Humpreys bias, like they might say there was an anti Murphy bias.

When good players are left sitting on a bench, regardless of the performance of the incumbent player, it is natural that people look for explanations. This has nothing to do with ROG but more to do with EOS and his failure to rotate the bench sufficiently.

And its only natural that managers(and supporters) have their favourites. Look at soccer or any sport, you can have great players left sitting on the bench. For whatever reason the manager makes his decision. When the results go right, he's a hero. But if they go wrong or become unpredictable, swing from good to bad and back, then people naturally start to question.

I think we will have to agree to disagree LuckyLloyd.
ROG and Humphs have been great players for their province and country.
I sincerely hope ROG can recapture his form for both Munster and Ireland.

LuckyLloyd · 27-09-2007 11:10pm

RugBeir wrote:

ROG and Humphs have been great players for their province and country.
I sincerely hope ROG can recapture his form for both Munster and Ireland.

Well I think we both can fully agree on those scores. Good reply sir.

Ulstermell0 · 28-09-2007 1:43pm

and at least ROG has learnt to tackle over the past 12 months

bugler · 28-09-2007 3:16pm

The beatification of David Humphreys is a bit much to swallow. He was always prone to mental implosion. Humphreys could have stayed with the squad and worked to prove he was no. 1. He didn't, instead opting to quit (fair enough, his call).

Had he stayed eligible, he'd probably be playing the next game, and maybe have played the French game too. Ireland's and Humphrey's loss. But the only person responsible is David Humphreys.

Linford · 28-09-2007 3:46pm

Seeing as Tommy Bowe and Tyrone Howe have played for Ireland in recent years I would go against the statement "that an Ulster player has to be twice as good as a southerner to get half as many game for Ireland" and side with the George Hook who suggest that there may be a quota system in operation...

Barzipan · 01-10-2007 7:11pm

I think Neil Best is the one ulster player who deserved a starting place. You could see his hunger when EOS finally let him on the field with 15 minutes to go against argentina. With the back row underperforming some of his aggression and physicality could have really helped us earlier on. Trimble could have been given a chance at centre instead of darcy who was anonymous at this world cup.

i'm not the only conspiracy theorist!

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