dog aggressive dog

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 8:00pm #1

Hi, first time poster long time nosy reader. I hope somebody on here can give me some advice.

I have 2 dogs 1 male 12months old 1 female 15months old, both neutured, i got them at the same time and for most of the time they get on great. The problem is the male dog is dog aggressive to other dogs both on and off the lead, he has been socialised at weekly classes since he was 4mnths old with dogs of all ages and sizes. He will approach them and will start off ok and then just lunge barking and snapping. I have had a behavourist come out to the house and observe him and they think its a dominance thing, the trouble is its not getting any better using the methods he's advising. I've tried correcting his behaviour and now have him on a gentle leader while out so when he does lunge i have a little more control. We've tried walking past other dogs and me giving him treats and occassionally he's ok. He's not food possessive in the slightest. He's on Hills science plan food and walked for at least an hour every day.

Any suggestions as i'm really out of ideas and the trainer is costing me a fortune.

Chris_Heilong · 31-07-2011 8:06pm

Usually dogs like this get this way because they see them selves as the top dog, not just to other dogs but also to the Humans in their home, this is why small dogs tend to be snappy and aggressive (not all of them, but yes a hell of a lot) its because they are let on the sofa, fed of the humans plate, carried around and allowed to sleep on the bed. Best advice I can give is get in contact with a trainer ASAP.

smcgiff · 31-07-2011 8:07pm

breed?

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 8:14pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Usually dogs like this get this way because they see them selves as the top dog, not just to other dogs but also to the Humans in their home, this is why small dogs tend to be snappy and aggressive (not all of them, but yes a hell of a lot) its because they are let on the sofa, fed of the humans plate, carried around and allowed to sleep on the bed. Best advice I can give is get in contact with a trainer ASAP.

Hi thanks for replying, the behavourist/trainer explained this and i no longer allow him on the furniture unless he's invited, he was never fed off plate but i did used to feed him before me and this has now stopped. I always let him come in/go out of doors in front of me but no longer do this. Never carried around or slept on my bed. I have the guy come out every week and at €50 a time its getting very expensive but i'm following his recomendations to the letter and after a month there seems to be no improvement, am i hoping for to much to quickly do you think? He still goes to socialistion classes but now has to be on a lead and muzzled.

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 8:15pm

smcgiff wrote: »

breed?

He's just a mongrel but the vet reckons that there might be wheaten terrier in there somewhere.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 8:36pm

Hi Kristian
Dogs are feral, I hope you dont have kids in the house, because if
the dog attacked one of the kids you would not be able to control the
dog.

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 8:43pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Hi Kristian
Dogs are feral, I hope you dont have kids in the house, because if
the dog attacked one of the kids you would not be able to control the
dog.

I have 2 teenagers but he's never shown the slightest bit of aggression towards us or anyone else even when i stop him from getting to another dog. We can take food/bones off him and he's not bothered so i don't think he'd bite us or anybody else.

liquoriceall · 31-07-2011 8:45pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Hi Kristian
Dogs are feral, I hope you dont have kids in the house, because if
the dog attacked one of the kids you would not be able to control the
dog.

Talk about a weird piece of advice!
Anyways just wondering about the trainer? Where did you get the recommendation from? Its unusual to hear of the dominance theory these days as that theory has been discredited.
If you are in the Munster area I can recommend a girl that worked with my dog and he has come on in leaps and bounds and I now no longer fear going for walks
I know with my dog the biggest problem that was identified was my reaction when we came to another dog.
I expected my dog to lunge and bark etc so he was reacting to my body language, with work it has improved, it will never be gone completely but there is hope!
Good Luck

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 8:47pm

The problem is you, and not the training method, I four dogs and have no problems with any of them. I also have kids. The dogs dont obay my wife
or kids. They have one master only. Only when you become their master
than they will respect you. Than and only then can you have a bond with
the dogs. Your treating the dog like a human friend. Master first than friend, sorry thats the way it works.

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 8:54pm

liquoriceall wrote: »

Talk about a weird piece of advice!
Anyways just wondering about the trainer? Where did you get the recommendation from? Its unusual to hear of the dominance theory these days as that theory has been discredited.
If you are in the Munster area I can recommend a girl that worked with my dog and he has come on in leaps and bounds and I now no longer fear going for walks
I know with my dog the biggest problem that was identified was my reaction when we came to another dog.
I expected my dog to lunge and bark etc so he was reacting to my body language, with work it has improved, it will never be gone completely but there is hope!
Good Luck

I phoned the vet asking about socialisation and was given this guys number as he was a behaviourist who ran classes. How did you overcome expecting him to react is it just time and patience, I know i do wait for his reaction these days. I'm in Waterford.

celticcrash wrote: »

The problem is you, and not the training method, I four dogs and have no problems with any of them. I also have kids. The dogs dont obay my wife
or kids. They have one master only. Only when you become their master
than they will respect you. Than and only then can you have a bond with
the dogs. Your treating the dog like a human friend. Master first than friend, sorry thats the way it works.

Ok i'll bite, not sure if i'd agree with master and serf scenario but if the problem is me which it could be how can i overcome this? Do you mean that even if i do somebody else will have this problem when walking him?

ISDW · 31-07-2011 8:56pm

Does he behave the same way if its just you and him walking, and not with your other dog?

star-pants · 31-07-2011 9:01pm

We have two dogs, they obey me, my dad, my mother and to a lesser extent, my brother & sister (because neither of those two spend enough time with them).

I think as mentioned training may be the key, you and the dog need to work together to understand each other. Your dog will feed off your emotions. I see this a lot with our dogs and my mother, when she gets stressed they get anxious and 'barky'.

I know it's not cheap with a trainer but I think patience and consistency may pay off in the long run. Although if you don't feel the trainer is helping with your particular issues then you might want to seek advice from another, different teaching methods etc.

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 9:01pm

ISDW wrote: »

Does he behave the same way if its just you and him walking, and not with your other dog?

Not so much but occassionally and i tried taking them to class seperatly but it became to much doing it 4 times a week as its an hour away. He improved a bit for a while after i did that there but on saturday he was back to his old self.

ISDW · 31-07-2011 9:02pm

kristian12 wrote: »

Not so much but occassionally and i tried taking them to class seperatly but it became to much doing it 4 times a week as its an hour away. He improved a bit for a while after i did that there but on saturday he was back to his old self.

OK, I just wondered if he was protecting the other dog. Is she in heat, or just coming into season maybe?

What do you do if you're out on a walk and he meets another dog and is aggressive? How do you handle it?

Sorry, just saw that they're both neutered

tk123 · 31-07-2011 9:14pm

liquoriceall wrote: »

Talk about a weird piece of advice!
Anyways just wondering about the trainer? Where did you get the recommendation from? Its unusual to hear of the dominance theory these days as that theory has been discredited.

+1 on this. They should know what the problem is not think they know? I'm in Dublin so can't recommend anyone local but maybe take a look at http://apdt.ie/ ? Is he insured - some policies cover behavioral assements etc?
Also I wonder if the Hills could be adding to the problem and making him a little hyper/giving him some extra energy he could do without? A better quality food might give you a head start by calming him down a little?

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 9:15pm

star-pants wrote: »

We have two dogs, they obey me, my dad, my mother and to a lesser extent, my brother & sister (because neither of those two spend enough time with them).

I think as mentioned training may be the key, you and the dog need to work together to understand each other. Your dog will feed off your emotions. I see this a lot with our dogs and my mother, when she gets stressed they get anxious and 'barky'.

I know it's not cheap with a trainer but I think patience and consistency may pay off in the long run. Although if you don't feel the trainer is helping with your particular issues then you might want to seek advice from another, different teaching methods etc.

Thanks, I will stick with it because he's here to stay and i want to improve things for us all but i just don't know where to go from here. I suppose i was expecting to see some improvement by now. I'm sure subconciensly(sp) I do tense up when i see another dog.

ISDW wrote: »

OK, I just wondered if he was protecting the other dog. Is she in heat, or just coming into season maybe?

What do you do if you're out on a walk and he meets another dog and is aggressive? How do you handle it?

Sorry, just saw that they're both neutered

If he reacts i pull him away without making a fuss and carry on walking if he doesn't i tell him he's a good boy and give him fuss. Sometimes it can be difficult to get him to carry on walking. I always apologise to the other owners:o

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 9:18pm

tk123 wrote: »

+1 on this. They should know what the problem is not think they know? I'm in Dublin so can't recommend anyone local but maybe take a look at http://apdt.ie/ ? Is he insured - some policies cover behavioral assements etc?
Also I wonder if the Hills could be adding to the problem and making him a little hyper/giving him some extra energy he could do without? A better quality food might give you a head start by calming him down a little?

Yes he's insured, i'll look into that thank you. I always thought Hills was ok what would you recommend, its not as if Hills is cheap. He is a little hyper.

liquoriceall · 31-07-2011 9:19pm

The only way I overcame this was lots of hard work on me! The Behaviouist worked with me and observed my body language and gave pointers, met a few time and there was a noticeable change
Then I was sick for a few months and couldnt walk him, after that he had regressed a bit but got the trainer watch me from across the road when we were out and it turned out I was making eye contact with him when we saw a dog thereby triggering
Anyway the point Im trying to make is I didnt even know that I was doing this so it could be something so small that you are completely unaware!

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 9:22pm

First of all I have dogs all my life, I bring them up to the forest or big fields
To let them run and play, if anyone is passing, with or with out dogs, I clap my hands and say come on come on and my dogs run to me and walk
behind me, than when the other person has passed I say go on go with a clap and there are off again running.
You are trying to train your dog on certain actions, even if you get these right your always going to have to train him on each individual action which takes a very long time with each action. Hence the dog is a problem. I am not a dog trainer, I just have a life times experance with dogs. When you become their master than they are very easy to train
as they want to please you and are happy to see you pleased.
If your ever in limerick I will happly show you how to do this for free.
It will take a couple of hours thats all. PM me if your comming to limerick.
Advise over the internet wont work sorry.

DBB · 31-07-2011 9:24pm

liquoriceall wrote: »

Anyways just wondering about the trainer? Where did you get the recommendation from? Its unusual to hear of the dominance theory these days as that theory has been discredited.

Good to hear a voice of reason in this thread.:o
OP, it's an unfortunate thing that anyone can call themselves a behaviourist in Ireland. This is heading for change in the UK, and will hopefully follow on in Ireland, because there are too many people doing a lot of harm to dogs, their owners, their families, and the bond between them in the name of "behaviour". In addition, their results are patchy at best, and in some cases, downright harmful and dangerous.
Behaviour is a science, just as much as medicine or veterinary is, and to become a real, proper behaviourist, you need to do a lot of training, study in a recognised 3rd level institution, ongoing professional development etc, just like doctors and vets do.
Which leads me to the point of my post. Anyone who has done the necesary study, and has also gained the necessary experience to call themselves a "behaviourist" under the requirements which are on their way, will tell you that this business of dominance, "me man you dog", insisting that one family member is master (I don't know where that leaves the other family members in a pet dog context), insisting you eat before the dog etc, has been utterly disproven.
Indeed, the man who first postulated Dominance Theory in wolves (David Mech) has long since retracted his research which led him to this conclusion: it's just a pity that so many trainers and "behaviourists" still cling to it. But that's for another thread.
And your case is proof of this: you're following a protocol which is based on an untrue philosophy, and so is almost doomed from the outset. It can sometimes appear to work, but it's not for the reasons one of these untrained behaviourists who advocate Dominance Theory will tell you. But that too is for another thread.
Had you been luckier and been referred to a properly trained behaviourist (and there are some in Ireland!), you would (a) have learned how dogs actually learn, (b) how they actually perceive other dogs and humans, (c) the real reasons your dog is not happy around other dogs, (d) how to use all this knowledge to change your dog's emotional reaction to other dogs for the better.
And by now, after a month (and probably less money), you should be seeing significant improvements in your dog's reaction to other dogs.
Also, I'd suggest not engaging the services of a "trainer" as advocated already. This is a behavioural case, and beyond the remit of a trainer (unless they've got the necessary credentials). It's good practice for an owner to do some research on the people they're paying to work with their dog before engaging that person's services: are they suitably qualified and experienced? Do they belong to a reputable professional organisation whose code of conduct/practice is one you feel supportive of? Does the trainer/behaviourist have insurance in case things go wrong (a minimum of public liability cover, and preferably with professional indemnity in the case of a behaviourist)?
You're in Waterford... maybe give Emmaline Duffy-Fallon of www.citizencanineireland.com a call, as although she's based in south Wicklow she may consider travelling to Waterford. Emmaline has the credentials and I've heard great reports about her work with aggressive dogs.

The very best of luck, you are to be absolutely commended for trying to do the right thing. You've goe to socialisation classes and you sought help when trouble loomed, but unfortunately, you've been poorly served by a so-far unregulated industry.:(

DBB · 31-07-2011 9:32pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Hi Kristian
Dogs are feral, I hope you dont have kids in the house, because if
the dog attacked one of the kids you would not be able to control the
dog.

With all due respect, what sort of nonsense statement is this?
OP, please don't mind other posters telling you that dogs are feral, such posters clearly don't understand the word feral. It's unlikely your dog is about to start eating your children... if dogs really wanted to do that sort of thing, and indeed, if dogs really did operate on the principle that they're trying to dominate us and take over the world, why on earth would we attempt to keep such animals as pets?
I also cringe when I see anyone telling the owner it's their fault the dog is the way he is. It really doesn't help an owner who is already feeling upset and disappointed that their dog is causing them problems.:rolleyes:

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 9:32pm

Liquoriceall thanks i'll bear that in mind, i really don't mind putting the work in to make life better for him and us.

Cetlic thanks for that offer, Limerick is a fair way to travel but in desperate times you never know. As i've said to Liquorice i'll keep on working away with him.

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 9:43pm

DBB thank you i will give her a call after the bank holiday. I thought i was doing the right thing by going to the vet and he said this guy is a behaviourist as well as a trainer. He'd seen my guy getting worse in his classes but put it down to him having no manners and tried to stop him by jabbing him in the neck everytime he growled and saying no (he said this is how his mother would have corrected him as a pup) but it made no difference if anything it made him worse because he'd then just nip without making a sound. I suppose my mistake was believing that if this guy was recommended by the vet he must know what he was doing

Its a shame because in every other respect my guy is great and loves doing everyday training like bed, stay, sit, paw and when i walk him at stupid o'clock around the field his recall is good.

Cherry Blossom · 31-07-2011 9:47pm

OP, which flavour of hills is your dog on? I've had some pretty serious reactions from my terrier with some foods, if you are feeding him a chicken based food I'd really urge you to try a food that has lamb or fish as the main protein source, I'd recommend trying Burns lamb and rice, one of the James Wellbeloved range other than chicken (I think their duck one has lower protein content) or Luath lamb and rice. You honestly won't believe how big a difference the food can make.

Honestly can't believe some of the dominance rubbish on this thead! My terrier is allowed on the furniture, sleeps in my bed, never had any dominance theory based training and very much lives as part of the family as opposed to existing as a lower life form :rolleyes:. She is the most well balanced, well adjusted terrier I've ever met. If given a command by any member of the household she is only to happy to oblige, because she wants to, not because she is afraid of the consequences or knows her place or any rubbish like that. All and any issues we had with her were completely down to diet and veterinary issues (hormone imbalance, cured by neutering)

First of all try a change of food and give it a little while to see if there is any difference, secondly, get rid of that trainer, your wasting your money there, try someone else.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 9:50pm

DBB if you disagree with my posts just say so and keep your aggression to yourself, so now you need a third level degree to train a dog:)
A few months there was an a bit on the paper telling us that
scientists have proven that dogs have emotions.
Yes I needed a scientest with a degree to tell me that one.
Maybe I need a dergree to under stand it to.

kristian12 · 31-07-2011 9:56pm

Yes they're both on the chicken, i didn't realise food could make a difference to their behaviour as well as their coat ect. I will certainly have a look for one of the ones recommended and gradually swap it over as i've only about a weeks worth of food left anyway. I've had a couple of recomendations through this thread and i'll certainly be phoning them on Tuesday. Thanks for the advice.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:03pm

Also every morning I wake up there a westie highlander on the bed and she comes and gives me a kiss wagging her tail. So no I dont agree with all this dominace stuff. but people just assume that I say that I am their master that the dogs are afraid of me. And judge me. My dogs often get
feed before me, walk through doorways before me, Most of the time the
dogs are in the house and yes they run up and down the stairs too.
I do a lot of cleaning with 4 dogs in the house.
WHY you may ask.
I LOVE MY DOGS

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:06pm

He'd seen my guy getting worse in his classes but put it down to him having no manners and tried to stop him by jabbing him in the neck everytime he growled and saying no

Oh lordy:eek:
It's little wonder your problem has got worse. If a dog is feeling a bit worried about being near another dog (and the vast majority of inter-dog aggression is fear-based), reacts to it, then gets ajab in the neck and shouted at, it only serves to confirm to the dog that other dogs are really bad news.
So, what would any self-respecting dog do? Try to get rid of any and all dogs before horrible things happen.
Sometimes, a trainer will punish a dog so hard (and different dogs have different thresholds... some are really sensitive souls) that the aggressive bahviour is inhibited through fear. In other owrds, the dog becomes afraid to react to the other dog.
But this does not address the underlying emotion of fear, and indeed, I'm sure you can imagine, actually increases the level of fear. So, whilst the dog may not react to other dogs in some situations, the fear has to come out somewhere. Now we're in the realms of really explosive emotional reactions.
This is why getting straight to the nub of the problem, and working with the dog's emotions, gently and patiently, you get better results because you're directly on teaching the dog to self-control, and to change the way he feels other dogs from a fearful response to a happier, more confident response.

(he said this is how his mother would have corrected him as a pup) but it made no difference if anything it made him worse because he'd then just nip without making a sound

Mothers do chastise their pups from time to time, but this business of thinking we understand where and when a mother will correct her pups is a recipe for disaster. As your example shows! Aggression begets aggression, and now your dog no longer gives the normal warnings before becoming aggressive. It is shameful the outdated and disproven stuff you've been told, but luckily good help is at hand and all is not lost! Indeed, a good behavioural session will help you to understand your dog in a way you never thought you could, and really brings you to better place with your dog from this perspective alone.
Good on you, owners who stick by their dogs like you clearly want to need a big round of applause!:)

I suppose my mistake was believing that if this guy was recommended by the vet he must know what he was doing

Unfortunately, this is all too common. Vets get very, very minimal behavioural training in college, and as such are just as misinformed and unaware of the credentials required by behaviourists as many owners are. But again, I can only hope that when the requirements are introduced to the UK, effectively protecting the title of "behaviourist" so that only those entitled to use it can use it, they'll find their way to Ireland too:)

Good luck!

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:21pm

So now we have to wait for the English scientist to
come over to Ireland to teach the paddy how to walk the dog:D

Chris_Heilong · 31-07-2011 10:24pm

Dominance is really the wrong word, when people think of it they picture bullying and treats to the dog, Dominance has no place in training, for example I have seen "trainers" tug on the leash when the dog didnt sit on command, totally over the top in my opinion, it is also the reason why I would never trust anyone but myself to train my dog, Also I am always telling people I talk to why they should never send there dog to boot camp, they will get back a dog that has been tortured with choke chains, shouted at and possibly hit by the so called trainers and yes their dog comes back and is quiet and follows commands but at what cost.

I do think a form of keeping order within a social group does exist with dogs, I mean I see it everyday with my own and to deny that it exists at all is really short sighted, unless you are just speaking about the dominance training that people practiced in the past and lazy trainers practice today, then I see where your coming from but dogs are not just happy go lucky teddy bears that just need love it goes much deeper than that.

So yes they do try and get to higher spots than one another, they do fight when a new dog is introduced in order to establish their place, they do become more possessive of food when other dogs are around and they do respect those the consider higher than themselve. I dont think it even needs to be debated that these behaviours are real, its nature and its who they are(some more than others):)

paultf · 31-07-2011 10:24pm

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP, which flavour of hills is your dog on? I've had some pretty serious reactions from my terrier with some foods, if you are feeding him a chicken based food I'd really urge you to try a food that has lamb or fish as the main protein source, I'd recommend trying Burns lamb and rice, one of the James Wellbeloved range other than chicken (I think their duck one has lower protein content) or Luath lamb and rice. You honestly won't believe how big a difference the food can make.

adrenalinjunkie,

Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with chicken based foods?

How did it affect your dog? And why is lamb/fish flavours better?

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:29pm

DBB if you disagree with my posts just say so and keep your aggression to yourself, so now you need a third level degree to train a dog:)

First of all, do not confuse "aggression" for "being factual". Your statement about dogs being "feral" and that children are in danger was outrageous. That I took issue with that does not make me aggressive. You may not like that I disagree with much of what you've said, but that does not make me aggressive.
On the issue of qualifications, you have completely missed my point. It's just silly of you to suggest one needs a 3rd level degree to train a dog. But people who train people to train dogs should have the necessary credentials to do that. Not necessarily a degree, no, but relevant knowledge, experience, and preferably membership of a respected professional dog trainers' organisation.
However, as I said, I never suggested one would need a 3rd level degree to train dogs. What I said was that a behaviourist should have a relevant 3rd level qualification and necessary relevant experience. Being a behaviourist requires as much formal knowledge, proof of that knowledge, experience, membership of a professional body, and insurance, as any veterinary or paraveterinary professional must have.
I doubt of any human would consult an unqualified child psychologist if their kids required such services, or that anyone would go to an unqualified doctor for medical care. It is only right that the same should apply to animal behaviourists. It is a science, just like medicine and veterinary are. For an owner to know they're getting the best practitioners the industry has to offer, rather than stumbling upon a quack who takes their money and doesn't help the problem, is a vital step for the industry, and should not be ridiculed.

A few months there was an a bit on the paper telling us that
scientists have proven that dogs have emotions.
Yes I needed a scientest with a degree to tell me that one.
Maybe I need a dergree to under stand it to.

It is indeed true that scientists have shown a lot of things that we dog owners already knew. The scientists knew it too. But what you're facetiously missing is that the scientists have empirically tested the hypotheses and shown we were right in some cases, or wrong in others.
In other words, science has taken the information out of the realms of being an old wives' tale, and either shown it to be true or untrue.
Scoff if you like, that is how everything we know about all of the sciences, from chemistry to psychology, has come about.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:37pm

And what about a family who cant afford an expensive scientist to
train their dog.

Shanao · 31-07-2011 10:38pm

Op, I would definitely get a new trainer in as soon as you can. There are too many people out there who call themselves behaviourists when they honestly seem to have no idea of what they're doing.

I recently met a girl with a dog aggressive labrador out walking, the dog had a halti, harness and a muzzle on, i was a bit WTF, and when I was about maybe 30 feet from her with my big fella, the dog starting barking like mad. She seemed pretty worried, stopped, walked in onto the grass off the road and told me to keep walking past. I told her no, to walk towards me while I turned big dog around and got him to sit at my side. The lab shut up the moment there was no eye contact with my guy, walked right up without a problem, had a good sniff off him and then calmed down. When I turned my fella around again, no problem, so i told her to praise him when he started to play nice and to take off the muzzle and let his leash loosen as she was holding him right next to her.
We ended up chatting for ages while the two dogs played (on lead of course) and she then told me she had spent nearly 300euro on a 'behaviourist' so far and had never seen the dog quieten down and approach another like that. I asked if the behaviourist had given her any insight into why the dog was dog aggressive and what was the solution, and her reply was 'No, he told me to change a few routines around the house but didn't tell me why he might be dog aggressive." I was kinda like, and you spent 300 on this guy, why?

For a lot of these behaviourists, it is money, money, money, unfortunately and then other trainers end up having to pick up the pieces afterwards.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:41pm

<snip>

There is no need for rudeness, feel free to get your opinion across in an appropriate manner without berating other posters.

Shanao · 31-07-2011 10:45pm

paultf wrote: »

adrenalinjunkie,

Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with chicken based foods?

How did it affect your dog? And why is lamb/fish flavours better?

Chicken, beef and pork are the three major meats when it comes to dogs having allergic reactions, often the proteins aren't properly broken down by the body and run a bit rampant in the system. If the proteins aren't broken down properly, they can miss out on having the right levels of tryptophan (think that's what its called anyway), which is essential for producing seratonin (which has a calming affect). What we see as fear aggression can be linked in with the wrong diet.
Lamb and fish-based foods have the least allergic reactions of the meats used in pet foods so suit some dogs better.

I'm guessing this is what AJ was talking about.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:46pm

Shanao did you get a third level degree from the English. or was it experence with dogs that natural you knew what to do.

star-pants · 31-07-2011 10:49pm

celticcrash wrote: »

DBB, Maybe the dumb working class should not have any dogs.
Climb down off your high horse and get a grip.

I suggest you please watch your tone

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:50pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

So yes they do try and get to higher spots than one another, they do fight when a new dog is introduced in order to establish their place, they do become more possessive of food when other dogs are around and they do respect those the consider higher than themselve. I dont think it even needs to be debated that these behaviours are real, its nature and its who they are(some more than others):)

The thing is Chris, that if you think about it, kids and adults often do the same! We may manifest their behaviours in humanesque ways, but the underlying reason for the behaviour is pretty much the same.
"Dominance" has become a thorny word, and the disagreements about it have spawned a lot of misundertstanding.
Every group-living, social animal has a hierarchy of some sort. That is not in question. However, it is how these hierarchies are maintained that people have problems understanding. Whilst humanising animal behaviour is often sniffed at, I think it is reasonable for us to view dog-dog relationships as not unlike those observed in human society. We don't try to get one over on people because we're trying to dominate them. We try to get one over on them because for whatever reason, it suits us better than not getting one over on them!
To illustrate, we observe protocol when greeting new humans we've never met before. But we have to learn this convention, we're not necessarily born with the knowledge that we should politely say hello, shake hands etc. Dogs are no different. They have a greeting ritual too, but they need to learn how to do this by appropriate early social encounters. If they don't, say if the dog was undersocialised as a pup, or as I suspect in OP's case, the dog had some scary social experiences as a pup (I wonder what those socialisation classes were like OP? A free-for-all by any chance? Pups running free and doig whatever they please?), they will tend not to learn the polite dog-greeting conventions, and this gets them into trouble as adult dogs. The resultant aggression may appear to a person that the dog is trying to be "dominant" over the other dog, but he's not. He's bricking himself and he's using the most natural means at his disposal to deal with the situation. Because most aggression is fear-based behaviour, using "dominance" techniques or rationale is potentially so harmful, because it is, by it's nature, an aggressive approach.
When it comes to humans, dogs don't for one moment view us as pack-mates, and our attempts to force supposed pack-rules on them serve to confuse dogs. I think it is more relevant to view the dog-owner relationship as a parental one. We guide the dog, we teach the dog which behaviours we like and which we don't, and at the end of the day, we're friends. This is not to say we treat them like humans: we do need to manipulate how we deal witht hem so that it's understandable to the dog, but it boils down to them same type of relationship.
Nobody would call a parental relationship one of dominance. It's one of, I suppose, benevolent leadership.

Shanao · 31-07-2011 10:52pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Shanao did you get a third level degree from the English. or was it experence with dogs that natural you knew what to do.

Funny you should say that because I actually did train in animal and canine behaviour, and obedience training, and one of the behaviourists doing the course was english actually. The other was irish, and honestly, I didn't think he was half as good. Especially when I found out afterwards that he did a training course after the one I took using choke chains!!

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:59pm

celticcrash wrote: »

And what about a family who cant afford an expensive scientist to
train their dog.

I will not make any patronising comments about what you have said Celticcrash. It would only belie ignorance to do so.
Many behaviourists will do a number of cases per year at reduced cost so that a cash-strapped owner can deal with their dog's behavioural problems: if it's the difference between a dog going to the pound/one way trip to the vet, and not, there is often help at hand. Certainly, any behaviourist who is working for the sake of the dog should offer such a solution.
Some charge outrageous, unjustifiable prices (cf Shanao's post above), but a quick glance through other qualified behaviourists' price lists shows they're similar in price for a consultation to an average trip to the vet, but you get them for a 2+ hour consultation.
In addition, it has already been posted, some insurance policies cover behavioural consultations too.

Chris_Heilong · 31-07-2011 11:05pm

DBB wrote: »

The thing is Chris, that if you think about it, kids and adults often do the same! We may manifest their behaviours in humanesque ways, but the underlying reason for the behaviour is pretty much the same.
"Dominance" has become a thorny word, and the disagreements about it have spawned a lot of misundertstanding.
Every group-living, social animal has a hierarchy of some sort. That is not in question. However, it is how these hierarchies are maintained that people have problems understanding. Whilst humanising animal behaviour is often sniffed at, I think it is reasonable for us to view dog-dog relationships as not unlike those observed in human society. We don't try to get one over on people because we're trying to dominate them. We try to get one over on them because for whatever reason, it suits us better than not getting one over on them!
To illustrate, we observe protocol when greeting new humans we've never met before. But we have to learn this convention, we're not necessarily born with the knowledge that we should politely say hello, shake hands etc. Dogs are no different. They have a greeting ritual too, but they need to learn how to do this by appropriate early social encounters. If they don't, say if the dog was undersocialised as a pup, or as I suspect in OP's case, the dog had some scary social experiences as a pup (I wonder what those socialisation classes were like OP? A free-for-all by any chance? Pups running free and doig whatever they please?), they will tend not to learn the polite dog-greeting conventions, and this gets them into trouble as adult dogs. The resultant aggression may appear to a person that the dog is trying to be "dominant" over the other dog, but he's not. He's bricking himself and he's using the most natural means at his disposal to deal with the situation. Because most aggression is fear-based behaviour, using "dominance" techniques or rationale is potentially so harmful, because it is, by it's nature, an aggressive approach.
When it comes to humans, dogs don't for one moment view us as pack-mates, and our attempts to force supposed pack-rules on them serve to confuse dogs. I think it is more relevant to view the dog-owner relationship as a parental one. We guide the dog, we teach the dog which behaviours we like and which we don't, and at the end of the day, we're friends. This is not to say we treat them like humans: we do need to manipulate how we deal witht hem so that it's understandable to the dog, but it boils down to them same type of relationship.
Nobody would call a parental relationship one of dominance. It's one of, I suppose, benevolent leadership.

Nicely put, it does seem like its the human over dog dominance you disagree with and so do I up to a point, but I do think we can give our dogs certain signals that the dog picks up on that would be fully understood dog to dog but human to dog might confuse matters, as one poster said about eye contact. Also I agree with you trainers putting everything down to dominance is just a lazy excuse for why a certain behavior is manifesting itself when sometimes it is something deeper like a traumatic event in the dogs past. There are still things I disagree with you on also but thats why we all have opinions.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 11:07pm

DBB wrote: »

I will not make any patronising comments about what you have said Celticcrash. It would only belie ignorance to do so.
Many behaviourists will do a number of cases per year at reduced cost so that a cash-strapped owner can deal with their dog's behavioural problems: if it's the difference between a dog going to the pound/one way trip to the vet, and not, there is often help at hand. Certainly, any behaviourist who is working for the sake of the dog should offer such a solution.
Some charge outrageous, unjustifiable prices (cf Shanao's post above), but a quick glance through other qualified behaviourists' price lists shows they're similar in price for a consultation to an average trip to the vet, but you get them for a 2+ hour consultation.
In addition, it has already been posted, some insurance policies cover behavioural consultations too.

Even at that some people can about pay their morgage, never mind insure their dog, or a dog licence for that.

DBB · 31-07-2011 11:16pm

thats why we all have opinions

That is true, makes for a more interesting world!
I've just thought of a phrase I heard which I think helps to put things in perspective. That is: Dominance is a relationship, not a behaviour.
In other words, some dogs will be more pushy with certain dogs, but will utterly toe the line with others, depending on the relationship they have with each other. I'll bet there are loads of owners out there who can testify to this! Their dog goes berserk with some dogs, but is a flirty eejit with others!
Similarly, if an owner tends to set boundaries and stick to them, dogs will tend not to push their luck with them. But if someone else in the home tends to let the dog away with everything, that's the person who has trouble with the dog jumping all over them, barging past them, even growling at them if they go to move them off the sofa. The dog is not dominating this person, he's simply using the pushy behaviour he's learned works very well for this person in certain contexts. There is a critical difference here in how we perceive what the dog's mindset is.
I think the same is true of humans, and we see many examples of this in the parent-child relationship: we see kids who will always do a, b, or c for dad, but know they can push their luck with mam because she tends to give in more (and vice versa, kids will be good for mam on some things, but be little brats around dad on the same things).

piperh · 31-07-2011 11:18pm

I'm sorry i have nothing useful to add op other than reiterate what others have said about getting a new behaviourist to help and that i applaud you for not giving up on your dog as others may have done.

This post has made very interesting reading to hear differing views on what may cause dog on dog aggression and dominance. I am a firm believer in reward based training so dominance is not something i have or ever would consider but some posters have put across some very interesting views.

DBB · 31-07-2011 11:20pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Even at that some people can about pay their morgage, never mind insure their dog, or a dog licence for that.

But they can, I assume, pay for a vet if their dog gets sick? Or for the dog's food? If an owner can't pay €12.70 for their licence, or pay for a vet in the event of illness, I don't really understand how they can afford to keep a dog.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 11:24pm

Good night all, I am talking the dogs out for a midnight stroll.
And thanks to all for your opinions, they have been enlighting.
Now I have something to chew on myself:)

paulgalway · 31-07-2011 11:43pm

On walks, our dog, Fox terrier X rescued dog, would either start barking and straining the lease; or sniff other dogs and then start barking and snapping.

I forget where I saw it suggested, but I now use a water bottle (squirt type). When she starts to show aggressive interest in another dog, she gets a squirt of water at the back of her head. she is now less likely to go for other dogs. At this stage, I only have to shake the water bottle and she behaves.

LucyBliss · 01-08-2011 12:27am

I used to absolutely hate walking one of our dogs for a long time. He was a barking bonkers loo-lah and if he saw another dog, he'd nearly lose his life barking. I was tired of it and him, though he was good as gold in the house so we had a good indoor relationship, it was when I took him out that it all went to hell.
So my mother would walk him while I had the other two, and one day she decided that she was tired of me not being able to take him out and made me do it while she watched. And she told me that I came across like I was expecting him to do wrong and tensed when I saw another dog coming towards us. She's not a dog behaviourist or anything but she made the point that if I were on a field trip with my Brownie pack (who can be worse than any dog, bless their young excitable hearts!) would I be looking at them waiting to do something wrong. And I thought about it and realised that no, I wouldn't. I'd tell them what I expected of them, go out with that attitude and head off any bad behaviour before it came to pass by distracting them or telling them a firm no.
So that's what I do now with the boy Jack. I go for that walk as though I had the youngsters with me, with me in charge and giving directions. So when we see another dog coming, I speak to them so they hear my voice, they understand the command "with me!" and we keep going, regardless of what they see or hear. And now because I'm walking him more, he's a hundred times more receptive to me at home and now he likes to hang out with me more and I have to say, I love it.

That's just my experience, OP. As mentioned upthread, we can give signals to our dogs without realising it and I wish you the best of luck.

As for traits between dogs and kids, can I just say that having raised a puppy litter to eight weeks and then two pups for the past three years, sometimes I don't see the difference between them and my Brownie pack in terms of excitement levels and sheer mayhem especially if they haven't been out much in bad weather!

Cherry Blossom · 01-08-2011 1:44am

paultf wrote: »

adrenalinjunkie,

Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with chicken based foods?

How did it affect your dog?

I can best describe it as extreme hyperactivity, she would literally charge around the house at top speed crashing head-first into walls, furniture etc. it was at it's worst around an hour after meals.

paultf wrote: »

And why is lamb/fish flavours better?

I did a lot of research on-line and contacted breeders, breed-rescues etc. that deal with breeds that are prone to being food sensitive, all said that their dogs did best on lamb/fish diets. I also took advice from the nutritionist that works for Burns (Burns provide this service free of charge). I took her off chicken completely and did some little 'experiments' where I gave her a tiny piece of chicken in various forms (boiled, raw, freeze dried) and it was definitely the chicken.

Shanao wrote: »

Chicken, beef and pork are the three major meats when it comes to dogs having allergic reactions, often the proteins aren't properly broken down by the body and run a bit rampant in the system. If the proteins aren't broken down properly, they can miss out on having the right levels of tryptophan (think that's what its called anyway), which is essential for producing seratonin (which has a calming affect). What we see as fear aggression can be linked in with the wrong diet.
Lamb and fish-based foods have the least allergic reactions of the meats used in pet foods so suit some dogs better.

I'm guessing this is what AJ was talking about.

I didn't know there was a scientific explanation at all, I just went on trial and error and the experience and knowledge of others better placed than I was. Thanks for posting this though, I've learned something now from this thread, even if no one else has.

DBB · 01-08-2011 1:53am

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I can best describe it as extreme hyperactivity, she would literally charge around the house at top speed crashing head-first into walls, furniture etc. it was at it's worst around an hour after meals.

This is very interesting!
I met a terrier several years ago who, if you gave him a pice of processed meat like sausage or ham, within an instant he would bite you.
He could have any piece of unprocessed meat, no problem.
But always, within a second of getting processed meat, bang!
I asked my vet about this, she felt it was entirely possible that there would be an extremely rapid neurological response to certain ingredients in some foods. This same dog has never bitten anybody since the astute owner made the connection.
I've come across a lot of dogs who changed very dramatically once the food had been changed, just like your dog AJ... it's a very interesting topic and one on which not enough research has been done yet.

dog aggressive dog

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