Pavee point in common sense shocker!

RobYourBuilder · 14-02-2015 7:12pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The fact is traveller children are holding back settled children through needing disproportionate resources. The opposite of what we're being told by the travellers.

On the flipside, settled travellers are the most victimised by travellers. It's a vicious circle.

Pumpkinseeds · 14-02-2015 8:27pm

RayM wrote: »

I lived near a halting site for years. It was grand. Never had any problems.

Funny that, I live near a halting site and there isn't a sitting of the District court where some of them aren't before the Judiciary.

bjork · 14-02-2015 8:29pm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Funny that, I live near a halting site and there isn't a sitting of the District court where some of them aren't before the Judiciary.

That's because they're fulfilling their jury duty!!!

:pac:

Froshtbit · 14-02-2015 9:16pm

As TravellerGirl has responded to stats with anecdotes, I'll give you one.

A long time ago, I was in school. There was a traveller lad in the year below me. On the rare occasions he came to school, he used to get up whenever he pleased and left class. The teacher would go after him and try and convince him to come back. This could take up to 20 minutes out of a 40 minute class.

After realising that he was wasting half his class time on one student, the teacher simply stopped trying and when the lad left the teacher would continue.

The school had rang his parents, given him detention, involved social services (although this was due to a number of other issues) to no avail.

This is not rhetorical and I do want an answer.. What should the school have done to help the lad? He disrupted class on an ongoing basis and was impossible to deal with. The school got zero assistance from his family. Not to mention the fact that there was 25 odd other students in the class who all needed teaching as well.

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:24pm

Boring username wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/end-option-to-marry-at-16-in-the-north-urges-pavee-point-30990741.html

A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins, and one I would actually agree with. This culture of child brides is something that needs to be demolished, and I hope the government and church move swiftly to outlaw this barbaric practise.

its not A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins as he uses common sense all the time

Sociopath2 · 14-02-2015 10:26pm

end of the road wrote: »

its not A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins as he uses common sense all the time

As do you ;-)

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:28pm

LordNorbury wrote: »

This old chestnut. No, not all travellers are the same, however that line is being pushed torward far too often as an excuse for ongoing serious problems that are usually criminal in nature, that are regularly and consistently emerging from the travelling community that the rest of us are paying through the nose for.

no it isn't. only the bigots think that because they want to continue with discrimination and bigotry toards travelers. were not paying through the nose for it at all.

LordNorbury wrote: »

Start taking some responsibility for your own station in life and stop blaming everything from the settled community, to society, to the Gardai for the well known problems that exist within your own community.

they are taking responsibility for their problems. they are blaming society for the problems that society are responsible for such as bigotry and discrimination

LordNorbury wrote: »

As for more requests for laws to be specially tailored now for travellers, where children should be allowed marry, forget about it is what I would suggest.

not at all. sometimes we have to base laws on different cultures to protect them from bigotry

Sociopath2 · 14-02-2015 10:29pm

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't. only the bigots think that because they want to continue with discrimination and bigotry toards travelers. were not paying through the nose for it at all.

they are taking responsibility for their problems. they are blaming society for the problems that society are responsible for such as bigotry and discrimination

not at all. sometimes we have to base laws on different cultures to protect them from bigotry

Personal responsibility means nothing to you, does it?

RayM · 14-02-2015 10:32pm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Funny that, I live near a halting site and there isn't a sitting of the District court where some of them aren't before the Judiciary.

Don't worry - I wasn't trying to suggest that all travellers behave impeccably. Only a complete fucking idiot would make such a sweeping generalisation.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-02-2015 10:34pm

RayM wrote: »

Don't worry - I wasn't trying to suggest that all travellers behave impeccably. Only a complete fucking idiot would make such a sweeping generalisation.

God help me I loled

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:35pm

LordNorbury wrote: »

People's opinions on travellers will automatically change when people see them starting to pay tax

yeah. shur many of us settled lot wouldn't pay a cent in tax if we could get away with it so thats a load of nonsense. jealousy because they can get away with it and you can't. many peoples opinions wouldn't change no matter what the travelers do. good old jealousy and bigotry toards anyone that isn't the same as themselves.

LordNorbury wrote: »

starting to educate their children

many are doing that. no different to the settled community, those educating and those dragging up.

LordNorbury wrote: »

basically that while they may aspire to a different way of life, that they start accepting that this doesn't excuse them from basic and simple obligations that are owed to your children and society

nobody owes society anything. some don't want to be part of society so leave them to it

LordNorbury wrote: »

for example having your children educated to a minimum standard and having a career of some sort

why would they do that if they don't have to like many in the settled community? all be it many travelers do work, many don't, just like the settled community

LordNorbury wrote: »

working and paying tax just like other people have to do in society.

people in society don't have to work and pay tax. they are called social wellfare recipients, big corporations, or government cronies. we'd all try get away with not paying tax if we could.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-02-2015 10:38pm

end of the road wrote: »

nobody owes society anything. some don't want to be part of society so leave them to it

Fair enough, but if you deliberately want to be separate to society and it's associated reresponsibilities, then why should you be allowed to avail of said societies safety nets??

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:45pm

Sam Mac wrote: »

the majority of travellers are scum in one way or the other.

any evidence for that?

Sam Mac wrote: »

The traveller society causes more bad than good and that is the issue at hand here

does it? any evidence "they" all do? well, its no different to certain sections of "regular" society

Sam Mac wrote: »

the ridiculous views on education and marriage that they have.

yeah.

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:49pm

Sociopath2 wrote: »

It's the traveller community's fault their children don't attend or do well in school.

When they start taking responsibility for their actions they will get more respect. They have been indulged long enough.

its the fault for the parents for the children not attending school maybe, but its the fault of the school if the child doesn't do well in school. them getting more respect is nothing to do with them taking responsibility, its to do with bigotry, jealousy, and certain types being self righteous using anything at all to discriminate against travelers because they can. its our job to indulge them as they are a minority

SEPT 23 1989 · 14-02-2015 10:50pm

end of the road wrote: »

nobody owes society anything. some don't want to be part of society so leave them to it

.

but they do want to be part of a society that puts food on their table and a roof over their heads and all the while robbing everything thats not nailed down for pocket money

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:51pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Bait for the "PC", I would prefer comments on using public motorways and roads not as intended.

what "pc" the one that exists in the heads of certain types with questionable opinions?

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:53pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

My question was directed at our travelling representative

It makes my blood boil that kids with real learning difficulty's ,whose parents are desperate for them to achieve a normal start in life get shag all hours while money is shoveled in that community's direction and is thrown back in the taxpayers faces

thats how it has to be. those in the most need getting the most resources. some cases make it seem not fair, but the system works

SEPT 23 1989 · 14-02-2015 10:57pm

end of the road wrote: »

thats how it has to be. those in the most need getting the most resources. some cases make it seem not fair, but the system works

you are some boyo:D

end of the road · 14-02-2015 10:59pm

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you deliberately want to be separate to society and it's associated reresponsibilities, then why should you be allowed to avail of said societies safety nets??

because its more cost effective then waiting for people to commit more crime

Renegade Mechanic · 14-02-2015 10:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

thats how it has to be. those in the most need getting the most resources. some cases make it seem not fair, but the system works

....

Renegade Mechanic · 14-02-2015 11:00pm

end of the road wrote: »

because its more cost effective then waiting for people to commit more crime

Not really. You ever try chasing a '13 Land Cruiser? Don't let their size fool you, theyre woefully hard to catch.

bb1234567 · 14-02-2015 11:02pm

oceanman wrote: »

plenty of countries allow marriage at 16....whats barbaric about it?

I think we can all agree that 99% of 16 year olds are much too immature and under developed emotionally and even physically for marriage. Marriage will probably ruin most of their lives, at a time when they should be developing themselves as people and not worrying about silly things like marriage.

VinLieger · 14-02-2015 11:48pm

LOL pavee point blaming anyone else but the actual travelers for a traveler problem im shocked

RobYourBuilder · 15-02-2015 12:45am

end of the road wrote: »

its not A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins as he uses common sense all the time

This f*cking guy.

RobYourBuilder · 15-02-2015 12:47am

RayM wrote: »

I lived near a halting site for years. It was grand. Never had any problems.

You do in your f*ck.

RayM · 15-02-2015 12:53am

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You do in your f*ck.

Top contribution there. Well done.

RobYourBuilder · 15-02-2015 1:01am

RayM wrote: »

Top contribution there. Well done.

Tell us about this halting site.

RayM · 15-02-2015 1:05am

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Tell us about this halting site.

There's not much to tell. You would barely have known it was there.

As I said earlier, I'm not suggesting that all travellers are law-abiding. You'd have to be a fucking idiot to make such a generalisation about an entire community.

Juanito13 · 15-02-2015 1:13am

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Thank you. I find your post very true because in the New Year we were out celebrating and we were going home when we got set up by six or seven youths. My father in law got his arm broke and next thing I see is them running for my fiancee. I will never forget that night or that mans face. The youths inquestion was not travellers but in ffact settled people. Not since that night we are not allowed into the pubs even though we done nothing.

Any idea why publicans have issues letting travellers into their pubs?

Shurimgreat · 15-02-2015 2:15am

What exactly would raising the marriage age achieve for the Traveller Community? They are not going to stay in school longer, most leave early or are withdrawn by parents. Its all a moot point really. There are far more serious issues, one of them the type of traveller crimes and machismo which was displayed at this wedding, but which was simply ignored by Pavee Point and largely by the media too.

Its like "yes a man was shot dead and another injured, but look over here at this other thing I have to tell you about."

Marriage at 16 is the least of the Travelling Community's issues.

Sociopath2 · 15-02-2015 2:19am

end of the road wrote: »

its the fault for the parents for the children not attending school maybe, but its the fault of the school if the child doesn't do well in school. them getting more respect is nothing to do with them taking responsibility, its to do with bigotry, jealousy, and certain types being self righteous using anything at all to discriminate against travelers because they can. its our job to indulge them as they are a minority

It's our job to indulge them as they are a minority??

Wow, that sentence says all that will ever need to be said about you EOTR.

You really do live on another planet.

Shurimgreat · 15-02-2015 2:26am

Really the only way to force parents to allow their children be properly educated is to charge them in the pocket.

A child consistently doesn't show up in school without a valid reason, then social welfare is curtailed unless and until the child gets a credible education. On the other side of the coin there should be supports in place.

I know the PC liberal leftie academic types would be outraged by this and by doing so would just entrench the problem. A good education should be a human right, enforced if nessecary, as children simply do not have the maturity to request it.

There should also be a form of affirmative action in support of Travellers.

Sociopath2 · 15-02-2015 2:37am

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Really the only way to force parents to allow their children be properly educated is to charge them in the pocket.

A child consistently doesn't show up in school without a valid reason, then social welfare is curtailed unless and until the child gets a credible education. On the other side of the coin there should be supports in place.

I know the PC liberal leftie academic types would be outraged by this and by doing so would just entrench the problem. A good education should be a human right, enforced if nessecary, as children simply do not have the maturity to request it.

There should also be a form of affirmative action in support of Travellers.

There's a lot of support for travellers in education and still more after they leave school to get them back in. They need to start putting some effort in.

They have become a community conditioned to having everything handed to them. I have dealt with a lot of travellers over the years and I have never met a single one with any drive to better themselves. They can put all the energy in the world into feuding and arguing between themselves but I've never met one with any ambition beyond the squalid rut they are stuck in.

eviltwin · 15-02-2015 2:38am

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Really the only way to force parents to allow their children be properly educated is to charge them in the pocket.

A child consistently doesn't show up in school without a valid reason, then social welfare is curtailed unless and until the child gets a credible education. On the other side of the coin there should be supports in place.

I know the PC liberal leftie academic types would be outraged by this and by doing so would just entrench the problem. A good education should be a human right, enforced if nessecary, as children simply do not have the maturity to request it.

There should also be a form of affirmative action in support of Travellers.

This already exists. There is a 20 day absentee limit, after that the child is referred to an educational officer and the parents may end up in court. You can be sure that authorities only go for the soft targets. I know of two travellers families in my area where the kids consistently miss school and no one has interviened. There are also great supports there, back to school allowance for financial costs, family liaisons and most areas have traveller groups which offer support. There's no excuse apart from inertia and a bad attitude.

Sociopath2 · 15-02-2015 2:42am

end of the road wrote: »

its the fault for the parents for the children not attending school maybe, but its the fault of the school if the child doesn't do well in school. them getting more respect is nothing to do with them taking responsibility, its to do with bigotry, jealousy, and certain types being self righteous using anything at all to discriminate against travelers because they can. its our job to indulge them as they are a minority

You really need to explain that last sentence.

You come out with some real nonsense but you've outdone yourself here.

Please explain why it is our job to indulge Travellers because they are a minority?

Shurimgreat · 15-02-2015 2:49am

There are many fine Travellers. In fact the majority of them are perfectly reasonable people. Yes they have their faults, alcoholism, broken marriages and so on, but as Travellergirl pointed out earlier, these issues are prevalent in settled communities too.

But there are also deep rooted problems among a sizeable minority of Travellers. There seems to be a sort of mafia like gang system operating, areas of control, well organised gangs, intimidation, violence, tit for tat murders and extravagant displays of unexplained wealth.

The community is stuck in something of a rut. Some individuals have taken steps to get themselves out of it despite massive peer pressure from their own community. Its not easy. Its never easy to go against the traditions of your own community.

RobYourBuilder · 15-02-2015 8:28am

end of the road wrote: »

its the fault for the parents for the children not attending school maybe, but its the fault of the school if the child doesn't do well in school.

I failed Maths in the leaving. Not my fault! Crazy logic.

K4t · 15-02-2015 8:45am

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL pavee point blaming anyone else but the actual travelers for a traveler problem im shocked

Ireland is a Catholic country and the majority of citizens identify themselves as Catholics. That the travelling community still believe in a lot of religious dogma that the rest of the country has managed to move on from, does not absolve the rest of us of responsibility. So no, it is not a traveller problem.

RobYourBuilder · 15-02-2015 8:49am

K4t wrote: »

Ireland is a Catholic country

It most certainly is not.

K4t · 15-02-2015 9:11am

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

It most certainly is not.

Yes, it is. The census says so. The majority might be Catholic in name only, but until they renounce that title, and until Ireland recognises itself as a truly secular state, then it is true to say that it is a Catholic country. And you cannot deny that is was a devoutly Catholic country up until recently, but people became educated and enlightened and moved on from its dogmatic beliefs; many became atheists while many simply chose to believe certain parts of the ideology while continuing to go to mass and say prayers and support the catholic church. Travellers didn't get the memo about the education and enlightenment part. Now you may argue that that is their own fault, but they are still citizens of this country, and they deserve our help. They deserve to be educated and to enjoy the same enlightenment as the rest of the country did. And as long as Ireland still places the Catholic church on a pedestal, gives it credence within its constitution, and its citizens call themselves Catholics even if in name only, it perpetuates the ideology and religion of Catholicism, which travellers still subscribe fundamentally to in relation to many things. A traveller problem is an Irish problem.

DrGreenthumb · 15-02-2015 9:16am

Just aswell most travelers don't have internet they could end up bringing this site to a halt

K4t · 15-02-2015 9:33am

DrGreenthumb wrote: »

Just aswell most travelers don't have internet they could end up bringing this site to a halt

That's quite witty; and a lot funnier than most of the pathetic traveller jokes on the first page of the thread.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I agree with your main point. I dream of a less religous nation. Regardless, we aren't a Catholic country.

Yes, we are. I hate that it is true as much as you, but it's important to acknowledge it and confront it, or else it will continue that way. It's no good saying Ireland isn't a Catholic country while the Catholic church continues to indoctrinate our children in state funded schools, influence our government on issues affecting all Irish citizens, and people continue to visit catholic churches every week en masse, a number which is on the rise again if you are to believe some. Ireland is a Catholic country; you can get used to it and attempt to change that fact, or you can bury your head and get down on your knees. And getting back to my original point about how this is not merely a traveller problem, the support for and popularity and dominance of the Catholic church in this country provides intellectual cover for travellers who continue to subscribe to its more fundamental beliefs. Nobody is absolved from this problem, not the Catholic church, not its followers, and certainly not atheists who proclaim that Ireland is not a Catholic country.

somuj · 15-02-2015 10:13am

All the travellers I have met have been violent thieving toughs. Women included. Lived beside a traveller family once. Used to lend them my lawnmower and give them lifts when daddy was in jail.

One night went on the piss and left my car at the pub. Got woken from my drunken slumber on the couch by daddy and a few sons braking open my back window to try and rob me.

But I cant tar them all with the same brush :-P maybe some day I will meet a nice one or maybe even two.

vicwatson · 15-02-2015 10:49am

Froshtbit wrote: »

As TravellerGirl has responded to stats with anecdotes, I'll give you one.

A long time ago, I was in school. There was a traveller lad in the year below me. On the rare occasions he came to school, he used to get up whenever he pleased and left class. The teacher would go after him and try and convince him to come back. This could take up to 20 minutes out of a 40 minute class.

After realising that he was wasting half his class time on one student, the teacher simply stopped trying and when the lad left the teacher would continue.

The school had rang his parents, given him detention, involved social services (although this was due to a number of other issues) to no avail.

This is not rhetorical and I do want an answer.. What should the school have done to help the lad? He disrupted class on an ongoing basis and was impossible to deal with. The school got zero assistance from his family. Not to mention the fact that there was 25 odd other students in the class who all needed teaching as well.

Id say every school has at least 1 of these pupils, its not fair on the rest of the class and the teacher, social services dont seem to do anything about it.

BunkMoreland · 15-02-2015 11:24am

it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

What's inaccurate about that?

K4t · 15-02-2015 12:21pm

BunkMoreland wrote: »

What's inaccurate about that?

It didn't take that long.

shruikan2553 · 15-02-2015 12:26pm

DrGreenthumb wrote: »

Just aswell most travelers don't have internet they could end up bringing this site to a halt

I remember the things travelers say Facebook page, plenty of people saying innocent buffers while having a profile picture so orange it suggested they work in Wonka's chocolate factory so I would say internet access is quite common.

bjork · 15-02-2015 12:30pm

Traveller families forced into exodus after church carnage
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/traveller-families-forced-into-exodus-after-church-carnage-30993093.html

Those who suffer most from male feuding are innocent women and children from those clans. Traveller sources say bitter and long- lived blood feuds perpetuate fear and instability.

Traveller children making progress in full-time education are forced to move away from schools and fail to achieve literacy beyond early primary level. This instability further feeds into the severe social problems in the community, the sources said last week.

Was this issue mentioned at all. The men folk fighting and feuding and the children having to be taken out of school because of it?

The Backwards Man · 15-02-2015 12:38pm

I sold a traveller a house once, all legal and through the books, my solicitor commented it was the smoothest sale he ever worked on, no hitches at all.

TravellerGirl · 15-02-2015 12:38pm

Juanito13 wrote: »

Any idea why publicans have issues letting travellers into their pubs?

Well if you read my post properly you will see that we done nothing. So as I will say to you some of you settled people are just as troublesome as some travellers. You weren't born perfect neither were we. You don't know where you will end up in life or whom you will end up with.

Most of us leave school at an early age but that is not always our parents fault. No travellers these days rush their child into getting married. Yes there are some criminals and bad parents in the Traveller Community but I can bet that their is also some in the settled community.
We get married at what age we want to, if its young to you so be it but that is just a way of life for travellers. Travellers take care and look out for their children.

Pavee point in common sense shocker!

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