Pavee point in common sense shocker!

Boring username · 14-02-2015 10:58am #1

End option to marry at 16 in the North, urges Pavee Point

THE head of Pavee Point has called on the Catholic church to ‘harmonise’ the age of marriage on the island of Ireland.

Martin Collins said it was a ‘ridiculous situation’ that young people of 16 and 17 can marry across the border, when the age of marriage in the Republic is 18.

Mr Collins, from the Travellers’ representative group Pavee Point, estimated that around 20 young Traveller couples under the age of 18 cross the border each year to marry. “That’s far too many – in fact, one couple is too many,” he said.

“These young people are only developing physically and emotionally and then they find themselves married – I think it is wrong and I believe most Travellers think it is wrong,” he said.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/end-option-to-marry-at-16-in-the-north-urges-pavee-point-30990741.html

A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins, and one I would actually agree with. This culture of child brides is something that needs to be demolished, and I hope the government and church move swiftly to outlaw this barbaric practise.

Cookie_Monster · 14-02-2015 11:02am

age is not really the issue if you're marrying your sister anyway

oceanman · 14-02-2015 11:03am

Boring username wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/end-option-to-marry-at-16-in-the-north-urges-pavee-point-30990741.html

A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins, and one I would actually agree with. This culture of child brides is something that needs to be demolished, and I hope the government and church move swiftly to outlaw this barbaric practise.

plenty of countries allow marriage at 16....whats barbaric about it?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 14-02-2015 11:06am

I dont think it's barbaric but I do think it should be outlawed and the age upped to 18 minimum as most of these girls are uneducated and immature and too young to be able to make such an important life changing decision themselves.

Sir Osis of Liver. · 14-02-2015 11:08am

When a Traveller breaks up with his wife does he say,

'I hope we can still be cousins.'

Johngoose · 14-02-2015 11:16am

Will this put an end to people being shot dead at their weddings.They give a whole new meaning to the term "shotgun wedding."

El_Duderino 09 · 14-02-2015 11:21am

Fair play Mr Collins. It's a step in the right direction but the bigger problem with getting married so young is that they never think about the possibilities for their life. No need to take school seriously if you're married in fifth year.

arayess · 14-02-2015 11:24am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair play Mr Collins. It's a step in the right direction but the bigger problem with getting married so young is that they never think about the possibilities for their life. No need to take school seriously if you're married in fifth year.

but the legal age of marriage has nothing to do with this.
It's not like the min age of 16 is forcing people to get married

Odyssey 2005 · 14-02-2015 11:25am

Load of bollix from pavee point, pass the book as usual,no mention of knives or shotguns at the wedding. Who's fault was that?

Boring username · 14-02-2015 11:30am

oceanman wrote: »

plenty of countries allow marriage at 16....whats barbaric about it?

As Mr. Collins pointed out, at 16 a child is still growing mentally and physically. And if a child is getting married at 16, god knows what age the grooming started at.

Sir Osis of Liver. · 14-02-2015 11:31am

Young traveller girl sat with her mother the night before her wedding.

Her mother says to her 'Bridie, I want to talk to you about your wedding night. Your husband will want to stick his most prized possession where you pee. '

The girl turns to her mother and says 'Mammy, why would he want to put his tarmac rake in the sink'?

amen · 14-02-2015 11:33am

But this isn't really a church issue. Its the law of the land. I believe you can still get married in the church at 14 just that that state won't recognise the marriage.

Boring username · 14-02-2015 11:33am

Folks, can we steer away from the jokes and incest jibes. I'd like to have this open discussion without the mods shutting the thread down.
Thanks.

Shenshen · 14-02-2015 11:41am

It's a sensible suggestion, but why do people in this thread focus on the girls so much? I understand the boys aren't much older in these situations.

bjork · 14-02-2015 11:43am

They'll just all head further afield to Gretna Green or wherever. This is a step in the right direction. It needs to be scaffolded with education and a culture change from within.

ancapailldorcha · 14-02-2015 11:43am

Should this not be a matter for the government? Why is the Catholic Church being allowed to decide things like this?

LordNorbury · 14-02-2015 11:44am

So he argues that the age should be reduced from 18 to 16, then in the next breath argues that 16 is too young to get married? Where is the common sense in those two opposing statements?

Sir Gallagher · 14-02-2015 11:54am

Martin Collins really has a thankless job to be honest, trying to maintain the integrity of decent travellers all whilst the nutters of the community marry off their kids, organise fist fights on youtube and rob houses. Unfortunately for him the decent travellers out there they seem to be outnumbered.

It's a welcome comment from him, i'm sure he's sick of the bullsh1t and trash in his own community. He comes across as a good man, he must feel as though he's banging his head against a brick wall.

oceanman · 14-02-2015 11:58am

Boring username wrote: »

As Mr. Collins pointed out, at 16 a child is still growing mentally and physically. And if a child is getting married at 16, god knows what age the grooming started at.

so two years later at 18 they are all grown up and mature!!! how many girls in the settled community do you see pushing prambs at 16/17?
also the shooting that took place at that wedding had noting at all to do with the age of the people getting married...

Littlehorny · 14-02-2015 12:00pm

Its ridiculous in this day and age, the British government should have sorted this law out thirty years ago. Your too young to buy alcohol, vote or even buy a lottery ticket yet your old enough to get married!
Stupid.

Grayson · 14-02-2015 12:01pm

wasn't the age set to 16 at one point?

excuse_me · 14-02-2015 12:09pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Martin Collins really has a thankless job to be honest, trying to maintain the integrity of decent travellers all whilst the nutters of the community marry off their kids, organise fist fights on youtube and rob houses. Unfortunately for him the decent travellers out there they seem to be outnumbered.

It's a welcome comment from him, i'm sure he's sick of the bullsh1t and trash in his own community. He comes across as a good man, he must feel as though he's banging his head against a brick wall.

collins is an apologist ( and a tax payer funded one at that ) for rampant criminality and dysfunctionality within the traveller community

Shenshen · 14-02-2015 12:11pm

oceanman wrote: »

so two years later at 18 they are all grown up and mature!!! how many girls in the settled community do you see pushing prambs at 16/17?
also the shooting that took place at that wedding had noting at all to do with the age of the people getting married...

Let's face it, age is always an arbitrary way of determining adulthood. But given that the law regards an 18 year old as fully mature, it would be hard not to allow them to marry - what would you base that on?

Ideally, we'd regard people as adults once they behave like adults, but who would get to decide that? Make them sit a test? Some people would never be able to become legal adults.

Boring username · 14-02-2015 12:12pm

oceanman wrote: »

so two years later at 18 they are all grown up and mature!!! how many girls in the settled community do you see pushing prambs at 16/17?
also the shooting that took place at that wedding had noting at all to do with the age of the people getting married...

By 18 you are legally deemed to be an adult-personally, I would raise the age of marriage to 21, but you have to draw the line somewhere. The latest research suggests young minds are still developing as late as 25 years of age:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

As for girls pushing prams around 16/17, you are right in that there are an awful lot of young Mothers. Kids having kids is a disastrous situation. And that's also something that we should be working on to reduce, along with child marriages.

14-02-2015 12:14pm

Shenshen wrote: »

It's a sensible suggestion, but why do people in this thread focus on the girls so much? I understand the boys aren't much older in these situations.

I guess it's after seeing some of those traveller shows and hearing reports from traveller girls in ireland in documentaries etc. The general gist is that they're never allowed out alone, encouraged to leave school asap, instructed that their lives are about staying home and cooking and cleaning and nothing else, while the lads can do what they want. Jaysus in one episode of those wedding shows the girl was brought to vegas but left alone in the hotel room cleaning while the boyfriend was off in topless bars! Then when she wasn't impressed, the mother's main concern was "how will we get him to marry her now?"
So I guess I feel for them in that respect. Maybe because I'm a girl as well.
If they want to stay home and cook and clean that's not an issue, but I think they should be allowed instead of discouraged to finish their education first and have a choice
Even that article about the wedding shooting had the priest saying "they wanted to get this girl married asap". Not that she wanted to ...

Shenshen · 14-02-2015 12:22pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I guess it's after seeing some of those traveller shows and hearing reports from traveller girls in ireland in documentaries etc. The general gist is that they're never allowed out alone, encouraged to leave school asap, instructed that their lives are about staying home and cooking and cleaning and nothing else, while the lads can do what they want. Jaysus in one episode of those wedding shows the girl was brought to vegas but left alone in the hotel room cleaning while the boyfriend was off in topless bars! Then when she wasn't impressed, the mother's main concern was "how will we get him to marry her now?"
So I guess I feel for them in that respect. Maybe because I'm a girl as well.
If they want to stay home and cook and clean that's not an issue, but I think they should be allowed instead of discouraged to finish their education first and have a choice
Even that article about the wedding shooting had the priest saying "they wanted to get this girl married asap". Not that she wanted to ...

So it's not so much about the age, and more about the imbalanced social roles, disadvantaging the girls?
I would agree that that certainly is an issue that would need tackling. I'm always amazed how such attitudes still can prevail in this day and age, in the Western world. But I think the issue of age of marriage still concerns both genders.

Right Turn Clyde · 14-02-2015 12:24pm

Boring username wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/end-option-to-marry-at-16-in-the-north-urges-pavee-point-30990741.html

A rare nugget of common sense from Mr. Collins, and one I would actually agree with. This culture of child brides is something that needs to be demolished, and I hope the government and church move swiftly to outlaw this barbaric practise.

You compliment him on speaking common sense, and then you proceed to talk directly out of your arse. I don't condone this situation, but it's not a 'barbaric practice'. FGM is barbaric. Non-essential circumcision is barbaric. There's plenty of other issues more worthy of your muscular vocabulary.

14-02-2015 12:26pm

Shenshen wrote: »

So it's not so much about the age, and more about the imbalanced social roles, disadvantaging the girls?
I would agree that that certainly is an issue that would need tackling. I'm always amazed how such attitudes still can prevail in this day and age, in the Western world. But I think the issue of age of marriage still concerns both genders.

No it does - certainly
Yeah, I guess the thing about the age is that when they're younger they're even less likely to protest or have had much experience in anything to know any different, you know?

Sir Gallagher · 14-02-2015 12:27pm

excuse_me wrote: »

collins is an apologist ( and a tax payer funded one at that ) for rampant criminality and dysfunctionality within the traveller community

It's a fairly sensitive position he's in, all im saying is that i emphatise with how he operates. He's in a position which demands trust and respect amongst travellers, he'd be soon out on his arse if he was condemning the community week in week out. Also, maybe he wants to promote the postive aspects of traveller life as we all know the negative.

The situation amongst travellers seems to be getting worse at the moment, this materialistic obsession which has came about in recent times in no short part due to awful programs like " Big Fat gypsy wedding" has crime rates shooting up i believe. I'm sure Collins and likeminded travellers are extremely frustrated and saddened by this, so in that respect i feel for them.

excuse_me · 14-02-2015 12:32pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

It's a fairly sensitive position he's in, all im saying is that i emphatise with how he operates. He's in a position which demands trust and respect amongst travellers, he'd be soon out on his arse if he was condemning the community week in week out. Also, maybe he wants to promote the postive aspects of traveller life as we all know the negative.

The situation amongst travellers seems to be getting worse at the moment, this materialistic obsession which has came about in recent times in no short part due to awful programs like " Big Fat gypsy wedding" has crime rates shooting up i believe. I'm sure Collins and likeminded travellers are extremely frustrated and saddened by this, so in that respect i feel for them.

which positive aspects of traveller life are you referring to ?

Dan_Solo · 14-02-2015 12:34pm

Who really gives a **** what the church says. Marriage is defined by the state and that's the age limits you stick to.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-02-2015 12:35pm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I dont think it's barbaric but I do think it should be outlawed and the age upped to 18 minimum as most of these girls are uneducated and immature and too young to be able to make such an important life changing decision themselves.

Implying that the girls in that culture get to make important life changing decisions at any point in their lives...?

FTA69 · 14-02-2015 12:37pm

The usual casual bigotry emerges after a few posts. No surprise there. It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

Boring username · 14-02-2015 12:38pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Martin Collins really has a thankless job to be honest, trying to maintain the integrity of decent travellers all whilst the nutters of the community marry off their kids, organise fist fights on youtube and rob houses. Unfortunately for him the decent travellers out there they seem to be outnumbered.

It's a welcome comment from him, i'm sure he's sick of the bullsh1t and trash in his own community. He comes across as a good man, he must feel as though he's banging his head against a brick wall.

I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

excuse_me · 14-02-2015 12:45pm

FTA69 wrote: »

The usual casual bigotry emerges after a few posts. No surprise there. It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

most travellers are involved in criminality of one kind or another , defrauding social wellfare is a crime and the vast majority of them engage in this

your attempts to shut down debate by implying the R word are predictable

Dan_Solo · 14-02-2015 12:45pm

FTA69 wrote: »

The usual casual bigotry emerges after a few posts. No surprise there. It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

It isn't casual when the criminality rate and shallow gene pool are incredibly well documented at this stage.

excuse_me · 14-02-2015 12:46pm

Boring username wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

collins only concerned about attaining immunity from the law for travellers which is what the drive for ethnic recognition is all about , that and attaining more handouts

he has zero interest in adressing traveller crime , let alone acknowledging it

excuse_me · 14-02-2015 12:47pm

Boring username wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

collins only concerned about attaining immunity from the law for travellers which is what the drive for ethnic recognition is all about ( the race card can be played during trials etc ) , that and attaining more handouts

he has zero interest in adressing traveller crime , let alone acknowledging it

mikehn · 14-02-2015 12:49pm

I'm conflicted, in this day and age what exactly is a "traveller" and what elements of their culture needs to be preserved . What are the advantages of seeking to maintain this lifestyle in modern Ireland.
Growing up in the 60's I had occasional contact with a number of traveller families and found them to be very ordinary decent people who got on well with their neighbours. I think the word traveler today is a misnomer as as soon as they marry they seem to be on the housing list for a council house.The laws of the land are against dropping the caravan where ever you feel like it so that element of the travelling culture seems to be gone, like the farmers grazing the long acre. Casual trading now has revenue twitching their noses and requesting accounts. So does tradition trump the law. I dunno I just wish that someone from the Traveller community would explain it to the general population.

Little CuChulainn · 14-02-2015 12:49pm

oceanman wrote: »

plenty of countries allow marriage at 16....whats barbaric about it?

The pressure that is put on them to make such a commitment at such a young age.

Right Turn Clyde · 14-02-2015 12:50pm

excuse_me wrote: »

most travellers are involved in criminality of one kind or another , defrauding social wellfare is a crime and the vast majority of them engage in this

You're really gonna have to start backing those arguments up. I've heard nothing but conjecture from you so far.

excuse_me · 14-02-2015 12:54pm

mikehn wrote: »

I'm conflicted, in this day and age what exactly is a "traveller" and what elements of their culture needs to be preserved . What are the advantages of seeking to maintain this lifestyle in modern Ireland.
Growing up in the 60's I had occasional contact with a number of traveller families and found them to be very ordinary decent people who got on well with their neighbours. I think the word traveler today is a misnomer as as soon as they marry they seem to be on the housing list for a council house.The laws of the land are against dropping the caravan where ever you feel like it so that element of the travelling culture seems to be gone, like the farmers grazing the long acre. Casual trading now has revenue twitching their noses and requesting accounts. So does tradition trump the law. I dunno I just wish that someone from the Traveller community would explain it to the general population.

travellers are a high minded civics project and cash cow for the do gooder sector in the former and the legal profession in the latter

for most people they are a huge drain on our taxes , eventually this menace will have to be dealt with by politicans as people will have had enough and the PC liberals who have such a romanticised view of them ( from leafy south dublin ) will be put back in their box

you cannot continue to sweep an issue under the carpet which the media and the chattering class do in this country when it comes to travellers , political correctness is all about denying the truth and sounding good instead of doing good on every issue , political correctness is one of the reason the dysfunctional culture of the travelling community is not dealt with honestly

Corvo · 14-02-2015 12:54pm

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

You're really gonna have to start backing those arguments up. I've heard nothing but conjecture from you so far.

Back them up? Have you never encountered travellers or what?

mikom · 14-02-2015 12:55pm

FTA69 wrote: »

It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

Ah come on now.
Not all of them marry their sisters......

Renegade Mechanic · 14-02-2015 1:00pm

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55338658.jpg

Sir Gallagher · 14-02-2015 1:02pm

Boring username wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

Thats fair enough to be honest. I just feel for good travellers out there trying to break the cycle. If you write off the whole community then they'll never change, which will in turn have a detrimental effect on the wider society.

Boring username · 14-02-2015 1:11pm

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Thats fair enough to be honest. I just feel for good travellers out there trying to break the cycle. If you write off the whole community then they'll never change, which will in turn have a detrimental effect on the wider society.

I know what you mean. I've met plenty of travellers who were skilled with their hands or had a lot of academic promise, but they openly admitted the travelling community would turn on them if they tried taking a course or furthering their education. I think most people would admit not all are bad, but bitter experience has taught the public to keep their guard up. Isn't it a sad state of affairs when your own community threatens violence if you try to get out of the cycle of despair. And before you know it, they're being brought out for a day in the countryside visiting old single farmers.....

El_Duderino 09 · 14-02-2015 1:16pm

arayess wrote: »

but the legal age of marriage has nothing to do with this.
It's not like the min age of 16 is forcing people to get married

Of course you're right. I suppose my point is that if they have a chance to look around, they will have a better chance to take education seriously. Imagine the choices available to a girl who expects to be married, and pregnant, at age 16 and live the rest of her life as a, semi-literate, housewife.

It's called career foreclosure. Children just expect to go into their parent's career. For most it's just a phase which ends when children have a chance to look around at the possibilities. If you're married at 16, you're committed to the lifestyle.

Not that they should choose to live a different life, but they should have the choice and raising the minimum age will help offer that.

Right Turn Clyde · 14-02-2015 1:27pm

Corvo wrote: »

Back them up? Have you never encountered travellers or what?

There's two families on my block, loads more in my estate and I had a pint with an elderly Traveller man about 15 hours ago. My mother works with young Traveller children, and since January I've also started to engage with some of them in a professional capacity. So yeah, I've encountered Travellers before.

Personally, I have had many, many negative experiences with Travellers, so much so that I have learned to be wary of them, and I suspect I will always feel that way. However, I have also met a lot of really decent people who are trying their best, but who have very serious problems, a lot of which are beyond their comprehension. For example, I spoke to a middle-aged Traveller woman recently who honestly did not understand the importance of her child remaining in school, which is tragically ironic.

Just under 30,000 people described themselves as Travellers in the 2011 Census, and there's a reasonable assumption there than many Travellers did not engage with it. So the number is likely higher, perhaps considerably so. That is a lot of people. It's more people than live in my town. That's every single person I seen and spoke to all week, multiplied over and over again, and it still wouldn't come close to the amount of Travellers that are in Ireland. I simply cannot understand how you, or anyone else, can speak so casually about such a large number of people.

Dan_Solo · 14-02-2015 1:40pm

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

I simply cannot understand how you, or anyone else, can speak so casually about such a large number of people.

Why not? They are attempting to generalise about themselves by claiming to have unique culture and ethnicity, yet nobody else is permitted to comment on this "distinct" by their own preference group of people?

eviltwin · 14-02-2015 1:44pm

Raising the marriage age won't change things. It will just delay the inevitable. I've met many traveller women who married in their 20's but were still being married off to men they hardly knew because it was good for their family. I live beside a traveller family with a daughter getting married to a man she has only seen a handful of times and never alone. I don't understand these parents who think so little of their children that they would put family politics ahead of love and genuine emotions. Nothing will change until travellers start treating women as equals and the children are allowed be educated. I'm actually disgusted that the authorities in this country allow travellers to neglect their children like this without repercussions.

Pavee point in common sense shocker!

Comments