An Taisce blocks improvements of lethal road in Kerry

Boring username · 08-02-2015 3:09pm #1

A sum of €4.35m, set aside this year by the National Roads Authority (NRA) for upgrading the N86 Tralee to Dingle road, will now be spent in another part of the country.

This follows a decision by An Taisce to seek a judicial review in the High Court of plans to widen, straighten and provide cycle lanes on the busy tourist route.

Locals are furious at the decision by an Taisce to appeal the proposed improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland. Since 2000, the 20km stretch of the N86 between Camp junction and Dingle town has seen 4 deaths, 5 serious injuries, and 33 minor injuries.
Last August, 5 ambulances were dispatched to two separate incidents that occurred within twenty minutes of each other on the notoriously dangerous road.
According to the NRA, the collision rate is double that of the national average, and a fatality rate of 50% higher than rural single carriage highways.

My opinion is that An Taisce is trying to justify its existence in a time of political cutbacks by arbitrarily blocking the improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland. I understand the decision to object was taken by the office in Dublin, and not the local branch of An Taisce, which I can only speculate had no original objection to the decision. (Although they now appear to be toeing the line in support of the appeal.)

It must be particularly frustrating for anyone with progressive ideas on transport and road safety in Ireland when you have half-witted imbeciles like an Taisce undermining your work from inside the system. It looks like we'll just have to endure more fatalities on the roads so that a small cabal of extremist environmentalists get to pat each other on the back.

It looks like nobody is going to fix the road for a while....

My name is URL · 08-02-2015 3:11pm

Not fixing the road... political suicide in Ireland

snubbleste · 08-02-2015 3:11pm

Would that be Daingean or Daingean Uí Chúis?

Kristopherus · 08-02-2015 3:11pm

An Taisce should have been the first quango to be abolished. Useless shower.

fran17 · 08-02-2015 3:13pm

I can think of someone who's spinning in his grave today

goose2005 · 08-02-2015 4:03pm

Kristopherus wrote: »

An Taisce should have been the first quango to be abolished. Useless shower.

Except it's not a quango. - it was not founded by the government, and it doesn't get government funding except for a few projects (Blue Flag beaches, Green Schools, National Spring Clean)

From their site

It is also worth noting that An Bord Pleanála itself originally decided that the exact same scheme represented an unjustifiable intrusion into the landscape of the Dingle Peninsula until this decision was judicially reviewed by Kerry County Council.

A complete and thorough application of the Environmental Impact Assessment Directive requires the project as a whole be assessed. This decision and how it has been handled is not just important for this project but for many other projects.

Since taking this challenge, An Taisce has received comments from people in Kerry and further afield, including tourists who've visited the area, welcoming our action. We have also received criticism and expressions of concern. To those we would say their frustration is more appropriately targeted at Kerry County Council and An Bord Pleanála whose actions have, in our view, compromised this project and how it has been assessed and failed to comply with the law.

And it's pretty low to wave around the death figures as if this upgrade would have prevented any of them. And to use 15 years' worth of accidents so as to get a big impressive inflated number.

dr.bollocko · 08-02-2015 4:09pm

Back in my day lethal was interchangeable with cool.

Outkast_IRE · 08-02-2015 4:14pm

How many of ye have actually went away and read what An Taisce are objecting to ?

http://www.antaisce.org/articles/taisce%E2%80%99s-challenge-contentious-upgrade-scenic-n86-dingle-route

In a nutshell, they are objecting because the project was spilt into many sections in order to avoid the requirement of an environmental impact statement, which is contrary to Irish and EU law.

I think they are quite right to challenge this, their comparison example would it be is it acceptable for a windfarm requiring lets say 30 turbines to split the application into 30, single turbine applications with no regard for the overall scope.

I think they are correct in this, by agreeing to hear it the judge thinks there is a case to be heard. In my opinion i think Kerry County Council were trying to play this one cute and avoid the need for Envrionmental Impact Studies.

Kristopherus · 08-02-2015 4:17pm

My understanding is that An Taisce is a statuary entity, but imo the have overstepped their brief on too many occasions.

ArmaniJeanss · 08-02-2015 4:22pm

Boring username wrote: »

Locals are furious at the decision by an Taisce to appeal the proposed improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland.

This seems a particularly disingenuous line in your post - a cursory glance around the internet would seem to suggest locals are actually split re the improvements to this road for various reasons and some of the holdups have been objections that have come from locals.

Also there have been various improvements made to it over the last decade, so to link the current delay to the deaths at the start of the century is fairly low.

Kermit.de.frog · 08-02-2015 4:23pm

An Taisce are serial objectors with nothing better to do than interfere with anything being built anywhere by anyone.

Tedddy · 08-02-2015 4:39pm

If there was no An Taisce every road would be littered with one off housing.

Boring username · 08-02-2015 4:56pm

goose2005 wrote:

And it's pretty low to wave around the death figures as if this upgrade would have prevented any of them. And to use 15 years' worth of accidents so as to get a big impressive inflated number.

Nobody has suggested the upgrade would have prevented previous deaths-that is absurd logic. But an upgrade would almost certainly reduce deaths and injuries in the future.
As for point two, I fully stand over using the statistics to describe the unusually high levels of deaths and accidents on this road. (Which I took from an Irish Independent article below). What, in your opinion, is an 'acceptable' level of deaths and injuries over a 15 year period? As I pointed out, the N86 has double the national average of collisions.
But don't take my advice on it, why don't you listen to someone who actually has to deal with the carnage first hand:

Dingle Paramedic Supervisor and the PRO of the Irish Ambulance Association, Patrick Hanafin, spoke to The Kerryman this week about this incident and the pressure placed on paramedics and emergency services as they do their job on what he describes as "one of the most dangerous roads in the country".

It his view that, for the health and safety of all concerned, it is a vital that the N86 upgrade between Camp and Dingle goes ahead - something which is in question at the minute as An Taisce have sought a judicial review of the plans sanctioned by An Bórd Pleanála last November.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/road-from-camp-to-dingle-one-of-most-dangerous-in-ireland-30958618.html

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This seems a particularly disingenuous line in your post - a cursory glance around the internet would seem to suggest locals are actually split re the improvements to this road for various reasons and some of the holdups have been objections that have come from locals.

Also there have been various improvements made to it over the last decade, so to link the current delay to the deaths at the start of the century is fairly low.

I have seen very little support for objecting to the project-an Taisce have claimed that they have received support from tourists, but they would say that, wouldn't they? The only support I have actually seen in print or online is from a Dutch national who has moved to Dingle-you can check all the links here of recent articles

Graces7 · 08-02-2015 4:57pm

Boring username wrote: »

Locals are furious at the decision by an Taisce to appeal the proposed improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland. Since 2000, the 20km stretch of the N86 between Camp junction and Dingle town has seen 4 deaths, 5 serious injuries, and 33 minor injuries.
Last August, 5 ambulances were dispatched to two separate incidents that occurred within twenty minutes of each other on the notoriously dangerous road.
According to the NRA, the collision rate is double that of the national average, and a fatality rate of 50% higher than rural single carriage highways.

My opinion is that An Taisce is trying to justify its existence in a time of political cutbacks by arbitrarily blocking the improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland. I understand the decision to object was taken by the office in Dublin, and not the local branch of An Taisce, which I can only speculate had no original objection to the decision. (Although they now appear to be toeing the line in support of the appeal.)

It must be particularly frustrating for anyone with progressive ideas on transport and road safety in Ireland when you have half-witted imbeciles like an Taisce undermining your work from inside the system. It looks like we'll just have to endure more fatalities on the roads so that a small cabal of extremist environmentalists get to pat each other on the back.

It looks like nobody is going to fix the road for a while....

What exactly please is wrong with that road? I drive it occasionally and would query your description. What exactly causes the accidents? My experience of that road would say that excessive speed is a very real factor.

Boring username · 08-02-2015 5:09pm

Graces7 wrote: »

What exactly please is wrong with that road? I drive it occasionally and would query your description. What exactly causes the accidents? My experience of that road would say that excessive speed is a very real factor.

The hairpin bends seem to be the main factor, which is why they were due to be replaced. I can't comment on every accident that occurs since I wasn't a witness to any of them. Only last September an American tourist was killed at one of these notorious bends:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tourist-fights-for-life-after-three-die-on-roads-30583880.html

Kevwoody · 08-02-2015 5:15pm

It's just a pity An Taisce didn't step in and block the building of the Tralee bypass, another fine waste of 60 odd million.

Outkast_IRE · 08-02-2015 5:27pm

Kevwoody wrote: »

It's just a pity An Taisce didn't step in and block the building of the Tralee bypass, another fine waste of 60 odd million.

They cant block anything, they just provide a bit of oversight to ensure that county/city councils and An Board Pleanala are playing by the rules.

irish coldplayer · 08-02-2015 6:26pm

Tedddy wrote: »

If there was no An Taisce every road would be littered with one off housing.

no it wouldnt we have planning guidelines and an bord pleanala to oversee development.
Some of the things I have seen an taisce object to over the years were ridiculous and tenuous at best.
In many counties they make a submission on nearly every planning application and often are the sole objectors.
The national trust for Ireland my arse

Baggy Trousers · 08-02-2015 6:41pm

I was down in Kerry hill walking a few years ago and I met this old farmer on a remote descent. For some reason he got the idea that I was from An Taisce and started getting really really abusive. I couldn't believe it. They had blocked some of his family with planning permission. He accused me of being from An Taisce but I had never heard of them and said so. That just made him more angry. He never really accepted it so I just kept walking. If I was An Taisce I imagine he would have shot me.

Boring username · 08-02-2015 7:22pm

irish coldplayer wrote: »

no it wouldnt we have planning guidelines and an bord pleanala to oversee development.
Some of the things I have seen an taisce object to over the years were ridiculous and tenuous at best.
In many counties they make a submission on nearly every planning application and often are the sole objectors.
The national trust for Ireland my arse

I agree. An Taisce, an organisation that was set up to preserve Irish heritage from destruction, seems to have morphed into a political monster with an extreme environmentalism agenda. Maybe a few loopers from what's left of the Green party managed to infiltrate them.

Cuddlesworth · 08-02-2015 8:01pm

Tedddy wrote: »

If there was no An Taisce every road would be littered with one off housing.

That boat already sailed.

markpb · 08-02-2015 9:16pm

irish coldplayer wrote: »

no it wouldnt we have planning guidelines and an bord pleanala to oversee development.

Planning guidelines only work if the councils abide by them (something few councils have a good reputation for).

An Board Pleanala only get involved if someone objects to a planning decision, they don't weigh in of their own accord. That's where people like An Taisce come in.

It's worth saying (again and again) that all An Taisce do is what everyone in the country can do, make comments about planning applications and decisions. They don't block development, the council or ABP do that themselves if the application doesn't follow guidelines.

If An Taisce object and a planning application is denied, it's because the planning application was bad, not because An Taisce didn't like it.

Graces7 · 09-02-2015 10:34am

Boring username wrote: »

The hairpin bends seem to be the main factor, which is why they were due to be replaced. I can't comment on every accident that occurs since I wasn't a witness to any of them. Only last September an American tourist was killed at one of these notorious bends:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tourist-fights-for-life-after-three-die-on-roads-30583880.html

Thanks for a sensible reply... Takes skill to negotiate those bends and often tourists fail to realise that. There are warning signs but they could be improved. One bend especially always takes me unawares. It needs better signeage. I was out there at the weekend and trucks etc had no issues with the road; I was very aware of the coming protest ( Friday I was there) so was taking notice. I stopped for petrol at Lispole and the kind man warned me to take care exiting as cars drive very fast on that blind bend. It would need a house or two demolished OR drivers to drive at a reasonable speed. I honestly do not see what the great fuss is about and I have been driving over 50 years. The more you " improve " the road the faster some will drive.

Capt'n Midnight · 09-02-2015 10:53am

Graces7 wrote: »

The more you " improve " the road the faster some will drive.

This

Also it's a pretty safe bet that almost half our roads are more dangerous than the national average.

touts · 09-02-2015 11:08am

Boring username wrote: »

Locals are furious at the decision by an Taisce to appeal the proposed improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland. Since 2000, the 20km stretch of the N86 between Camp junction and Dingle town has seen 4 deaths, 5 serious injuries, and 33 minor injuries.
Last August, 5 ambulances were dispatched to two separate incidents that occurred within twenty minutes of each other on the notoriously dangerous road.
According to the NRA, the collision rate is double that of the national average, and a fatality rate of 50% higher than rural single carriage highways.

My opinion is that An Taisce is trying to justify its existence in a time of political cutbacks by arbitrarily blocking the improvement of one of the most dangerous roads in Ireland. I understand the decision to object was taken by the office in Dublin, and not the local branch of An Taisce, which I can only speculate had no original objection to the decision. (Although they now appear to be toeing the line in support of the appeal.)

It must be particularly frustrating for anyone with progressive ideas on transport and road safety in Ireland when you have half-witted imbeciles like an Taisce undermining your work from inside the system. It looks like we'll just have to endure more fatalities on the roads so that a small cabal of extremist environmentalists get to pat each other on the back.

It looks like nobody is going to fix the road for a while....

I'd say across the country communities could point to many roads that have seen far more than 4 deaths, 5 Serious injuries and 33 minor injuries in 15 years. The problem is the national road network has been left to crumble into the ground. That said An Taisce are self appointed unregulated busy bodies that need to be disbanded.

the groutch · 09-02-2015 11:24am

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

In my opinion i think Kerry County Council were trying to play this one cute and avoid the need for Envrionmental Impact Studies.

more than just coincidence that there's still two members of a certain family on the council.

Graces7 · 09-02-2015 11:33am

the groutch wrote: »

more than just coincidence that there's still two members of a certain family on the council.

spot on there! I see their support of landowners re the greenway has been foiled

Graces7 · 09-02-2015 11:36am

touts wrote: »

I'd say across the country communities could point to many roads that have seen far more than 4 deaths, 5 Serious injuries and 33 minor injuries in 15 years. The problem is the national road network has been left to crumble into the ground. That said An Taisce are self appointed unregulated busy bodies that need to be disbanded.

speed, bad driving.. I was to carrantouil last week and on that road I paused to read a sign and got blasted and almost hit by a woman driving far too close.. then when I started turning off a kid in a car slid past on the nearside. parts of the disputed road even have cycle paths now

Dog of Tears · 09-02-2015 11:43am

An Taisce have objected to the building of every major road scheme in Ireland over the last 15 years.

If they has their way, we'd have the most backward infrastructure in Europe instead of the excellently designed and constructed inter-urban motorways we now have (one of the few benefits of the Celtic Tiger that wasn't pissed away by Governments).

In most cases their objections on Cultural or Environmental grounds is entirely spurious - they are just a bunch of backward luddites.

Fortunately in most cases their objections fail - it would seem in this instance they have been successful in delaying a much-needed upgrade.

Hopefully no one else will die on this stretch of road during this delay period.

goose2005 · 09-02-2015 11:46am

touts wrote: »

I'd say across the country communities could point to many roads that have seen far more than 4 deaths, 5 Serious injuries and 33 minor injuries in 15 years. The problem is the national road network has been left to crumble into the ground. That said An Taisce are self appointed unregulated busy bodies that need to be disbanded.

Who would disband them? As pointed out previously, they're not a govt agency. And it's pretty funny that you complain about "unregulated" busy bodies when you would have all construction unregulated

Oh and one thing that makes it hard to upgrade/improve/widen/realign narrow, winding country roads is that there are houses built all over them. If only someone had tried to stop them:pac:

floggg · 09-02-2015 11:47am

markpb wrote: »

Planning guidelines only work if the councils abide by them (something few councils have a good reputation for).

An Board Pleanala only get involved if someone objects to a planning decision, they don't weigh in of their own accord. That's where people like An Taisce come in.

It's worth saying (again and again) that all An Taisce do is what everyone in the country can do, make comments about planning applications and decisions. They don't block development, the council or ABP do that themselves if the application doesn't follow guidelines.

If An Taisce object and a planning application is denied, it's because the planning application was bad, not because An Taisce didn't like it.

Listen, less of your sensible, objective, evidence based and factual posts please.

People are trying to get outraged here. There's no time to establish the facts in this case, or come to informed views on the matter - there's pitch forks to brandish and mobs to form!

veryangryman · 09-02-2015 11:51am

floggg wrote: »

Listen, less of your sensible, objective, evidence based and factual posts please.

People are trying to get outraged here. There's no time to establish the facts in this case, or come to informed views on the matter - there's pitch forks to brandish and mobs to form!

Yeah! :mad:

weisses · 09-02-2015 12:06pm

Boring username wrote: »

The hairpin bends seem to be the main factor, which is why they were due to be replaced. I can't comment on every accident that occurs since I wasn't a witness to any of them. Only last September an American tourist was killed at one of these notorious bends:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tourist-fights-for-life-after-three-die-on-roads-30583880.html

Two things .. that accident did not occur in the hairpin bends

And what I was told is that the tourist turned onto the main road and drove on the wrong side (happens all the time on the peninsula).

Not taking away the importance of an upgrade though (I hate these bends)

El Weirdo · 09-02-2015 12:13pm

Boring username wrote: »

...The only support I have actually seen in print or online is from a Dutch national who has moved to Dingle...

Hmmmm...

Boring username · 09-02-2015 7:52pm

The legal challenge by an Taisce will be fast tracked by the Commercial court-hopefully there will be a quick result:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/challenge-to-controversial-65m-kerry-road-widening-scheme-to-be-fasttracked-by-the-commercial-court-30977667.html

Kevwoody · 09-02-2015 8:02pm

Graces7 wrote: »

speed, bad driving.. I was to carrantouil last week and on that road I paused to read a sign and got blasted and almost hit by a woman driving far too close.. then when I started turning off a kid in a car slid past on the nearside. parts of the disputed road even have cycle paths now

Pausing on a National road to read a sign? Yea that does sound like bad driving.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 09-02-2015 8:30pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

This

Also it's a pretty safe bet that almost half our roads are more dangerous than the national average.

But on a more serious note, i believe that the section of road in particular has a much, much higher accident rate than the average for the type of road it is, from talking to a council official last night.

I would drive that section of road a good few times each year and it's the one road i drive on that i absolutely abhor. It surely must be upgraded from a health and safety perspective.

Del.Monte · 09-02-2015 8:48pm

What about the dangerous road round Slea Head - shouldn't that be 'improved' too?

Capt'n Midnight · 09-02-2015 9:34pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

But on a more serious note, i believe that the section of road in particular has a much, much higher accident rate than the average for the type of road it is, from talking to a council official last night.

I would drive that section of road a good few times each year and it's the one road i drive on that i absolutely abhor. It surely must be upgraded from a health and safety perspective.

It's already been said that it's twice as dangerous as average. So not mega dangerous. And judging by the comments people who use the road are generally aware of the danger.

Most collisions are caused by driver error. If there is a black spot then good warning signs and safety cameras (if speeding is an issue) are something that could be done tomorrow. Visible Garda presence should get people to drive more safely. Roadside checks for valid driving license, insurance, motor tax and insurance , especially at night/weekends / closing time might remove some miscreants if it was felt that there was an issue there.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 09-02-2015 9:42pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's already been said that it's twice as dangerous as average. So not mega dangerous. And judging by the comments people who use the road are generally aware of the danger.

Most collisions are caused by driver error. If there is a black spot then good warning signs and safety cameras (if speeding is an issue) are something that could be done tomorrow. Visible Garda presence should get people to drive more safely. Roadside checks for valid driving license, insurance, motor tax and insurance , especially at night/weekends / closing time might remove some miscreants if it was felt that there was an issue there.

But are the people living there and driving that road not as entitled to a safe road as every other person in the country? Grand, increase Garda presence but long term the only feasible solution would have to be a better road.

byhookorbycrook · 09-02-2015 10:42pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

What about the dangerous road round Slea Head - shouldn't that be 'improved' too?

It was. The road was widened in some places between Ventry and the road to Coumeenole and then the stretch from Coumeenole to near the slip at Dúnchaoin was moved inland and widened.

An Taisce blocks improvements of lethal road in Kerry

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