New Pier A prefabs in Dublin Airport

penexpers · 19-06-2006 12:48pm #1

Does anyone know if these or temporary or not? Bit of a shambles really.

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 1:09pm

Temporary - they're in place while work proceeds on pier D. Why are they a shambles?

Traffic · 19-06-2006 1:09pm

yes these are temporary

Bluetonic · 19-06-2006 1:17pm

penexpers wrote:

Does anyone know if these or temporary or not? Bit of a shambles really.

This new facility will be in place for approx. 18 months while Pier D is under construction.

Why exactly is it a shambles? It serves it purpose.

jjbrien · 19-06-2006 1:21pm

Firstly I dont belive there are tempory. You know how things work in Ireland. I remember at School they put up a prefab when Iwas there and it was supposed to be tempory bu it is still there 10 years later. I thimk these prefabs at pier A which by the way thet are calling it pier d are here to stay.

Bluetonic · 19-06-2006 1:50pm

jjbrien wrote:

I remember at School they put up a prefab when Iwas there and it was supposed to be tempory bu it is still there 10 years later.

Great reasoning there.

They are calling it Pier A becasue thats what it is, an extension to Pier A, a temporary one.

It'll will HAVE to go once pier D is complete as the space will be needed for taxi ways. Without the space half of pier D would be unusable.

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 2:02pm

Have they actually started the work on Pier D yet?

I'm travelling through DUB with FR on thursday, I guess I'll be able to see it for myself, assuming that my flight goes from the new facility. A few years ago I travelled from Zurich with EZY & at the time there was a temporary facility in use there (a big marquee) while a new terminal extension was under construction. It was fine, if a little cold.

Diaspora · 19-06-2006 2:21pm

Used them myself both sides of the weekend;

absolutely shambolic is the only way to describe them and I am speaking as a relatively young person. A 7 minute walk through pre-fabs with no travelator for the infirm and no obvious heating system for when the winter kicks in.

I also noted that only one airline has been allocated gates in prefab city; the particular airline with new planes and controversial adverts. There is a definite political context to this and the target is being victimised in my opinion for having vision and 'the barefaced cheek to complain at the infrastructural lethargy that mascarades for government in this country'

I will not be flying Aer Lingus again unless it is less than €75 each way trans atlantic

penexpers · 19-06-2006 2:49pm

Bluetonic wrote:

This new facility will be in place for approx. 18 months while Pier D is under construction.

Why exactly is it a shambles? It serves it purpose.

It took me the guts of 20 minutes walking at a reasonably fast pace to get from the security checks to the gates. There was absolutely no warning about how far it was away, I was just glad that I gave myself loads of time. I would hate to think what getting to those gates would be like for the less fit. And as another poster said, there's no obvious signs of heating for the winter months. While they were still buidling the prefabs, there was a bus to take you from one of the old Pier A gates to the planes at the new gates, don't see why this can't be kept on.

jjbrien · 19-06-2006 2:54pm

Just one question. These pefabs are pretty flimsy is the aircraft noise in them deafing? What if a US airways or Delta 777 or 767 goes past will it burst peoples ears who are sitting in pefab city?

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 2:56pm

It took me the guts of 20 minutes walking at a reasonably fast pace to get from the security checks to the gates. There was absolutely no warning about how far it was away, I was just glad that I gave myself loads of time. I would hate to think what getting to those gates would be like for the less fit.

Ah, OK then, I certainly see your point. The DAA should get the finger out & at least advise people as to how much of a walk is involved (e.g. LHR have signs up giving approximate journey times from the duty free areas to the departure gates in T1).

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 2:57pm

jjbrien wrote:

Just one question. These pefabs are pretty flimsy is the aircraft noise in them deafing? What if a US airways or Delta 777 or 767 goes past will it burst peoples ears who are sitting in pefab city?

Just as well that FR don't have any 737-200's left in service!

jjbrien · 19-06-2006 3:03pm

Still I work right beside the Airport and the noise of the Aircraft going across the building is very loud. I cant imagine whats its like sitting in pefab city. i sure the walls must shake. I am flying myself on Thursday to Liverpool so might be leaving from prefab city. I will try to not sit in there untill my flight is called.

monument · 19-06-2006 3:48pm

Diaspora wrote:

I will not be flying Aer Lingus again unless it is less than €75 each way trans atlantic

What?

Diaspora · 19-06-2006 4:00pm

I think that Ryanair have been deliberately given the bum deal and where possible I will be boycotting the state airline as my token protest for the chaos that is Dublin Airport.

I feel that many will stop using Ryanair because of the ordeal it has become. Does this clarify?

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 4:10pm

I feel that many will stop using Ryanair because of the ordeal it has become.

Ryanair offer cheap fares, therefore they will always get a lot of business as cost is the bottom line for many consumers. The long walk to the temporary facilities maight be inconvenient, and some people may choose not to fly with them becuase of this, but I can't see it affecting them badly.

Diaspora · 19-06-2006 4:20pm

I disagree the Dublin Airport Authority levy hefty charges and regardless of the price that Ryanair charge for its flights the Dublin Airport Authority should provide decent facilities.

I have flown both Ryanair and Aer Lingus to a number of European airports and never entered a prefab anywhere else. If the distance involved was on a travelator you would say badly designed and leave it at that but it is not.

It is a prefab and only one airline have been allocated slots at the worst point of the airport when will the remanents of Aer Rianta stop selling cigerretes in far flung airports and start to look after their mandated function? i.e. the Irish passenger

therecklessone · 19-06-2006 4:24pm

Diaspora wrote:

I think that Ryanair have been deliberately given the bum deal and where possible I will be boycotting the state airline as my token protest for the chaos that is Dublin Airport.

It is entirey possible that Ryanair are the only major carrier out of Dublin who are willing to use the new facility, and as such aren't exactly getting the s*itty end of the stick by design.

As I understand it, the 8 new contact stands will help reduce the need for towing from remote stands to contact stands for boarding during busy periods, which helps reduce delays. That's Ryanair's bread and butter.

According to the DAA, the first flights to use the facility were three Ryanair a/c and an Aer Arann.

Boycotting Aer Lingus is a futile gesture, all the more so considering they are as outspoken as Ryanair at times in relation to the shambles at Dublin.

monument · 19-06-2006 4:25pm

Diaspora wrote:

I feel that many will stop using Ryanair because of the ordeal it has become. Does this clarify?

Right, I’m glad you weren’t actually expecting trans atlantic flights for that price.

Diaspora · 19-06-2006 4:29pm

therecklessone wrote:

Boycotting Aer Lingus is a futile gesture, all the more so considering they are as outspoken as Ryanair at times in relation to the shambles at Dublin.

Thanks for clarifying this I must admit I have never seen Aer Lingus publicly complaining on this issue. But the fact that they are complaining makes the situation even more unacceptable if the two carriers that carry in excess of 60% of total pax consider the airport to be a third world facility.

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 4:31pm

Here's some old Ryanair news:

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=05&month=dec&story=rte-en-211205

But this is what's interesting to me:

These new aircraft will be based at the new temporary boarding facility, which will be available at Dublin Airport from the end of May 2006. In time these routes and aircraft will operate from the new Pier D facility when opened in Summer 2007. Ryanair will now be working closely with the DAA to ensure that the new facilities at Dublin Airport are developed on-time and within budget.

From that I'm taking it that FR are happy enough to use the temporary structure, for now. They've continued to add more routes from Dublin (Berlin being a recent addition) something they refused to do for a long time when Aer Rianta was in existence.

Anyway, Ryanair have always made it clear that they wanted a low cost facility in order to keep costs down & pass savings on to the public (by way of low fares). the proof of the current arrangement will be in the load factors on FR flights.

Dublin Airport Authority levy hefty charges and regardless of the price that Ryanair charge for its flights the Dublin Airport Authority should provide decent facilities.

Yep, they should & hopefully they'll do something to make life easier for those of us using this prefab. I'll see how it is on thursday when I use it myself.

Marathon_Man · 19-06-2006 4:40pm

I've flown from there with Aer Lingus. It's not used just by Ryanair.

Diaspora · 19-06-2006 4:45pm

I can only speak from personal experience and the twice I've been through they were all FR planes. Regardless of the airline no one should be flying from a prefab in a City with the economic backdrop Dublin claims to have.

therecklessone · 19-06-2006 4:48pm

Diaspora wrote:

I can only speak from personal experience and the twice I've been through they were all FR planes.

Ryanair are the largest carrier to use contact stands exclusively @ Dublin, so it stands to reason that the majority of flights from the new facility would be FR, giving the impression they're the only user.

dmeehan · 19-06-2006 5:24pm

Is that marquee still in use in "Paris"-Beauvais?

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 5:30pm

Diaspora wrote:

I can only speak from personal experience and the twice I've been through they were all FR planes. Regardless of the airline no one should be flying from a prefab in a City with the economic backdrop Dublin claims to have.

OK, you say that but what's the alternative? A summer of building work while pier D is in progress while pier A becomes massively overcrowded at peak times? Or an airline who are proposing to expand their services from Dublin being blocked from doing so because there's no facilities?

Diaspora · 19-06-2006 5:46pm

I don't accept that the situation is accurately displayed by your question.

Pier C opened in 2001 passenger numbers have grown by roughly 1m per year since as first Mama O'Rourke then Che Breannan and most recently Martin E Cullen have fudged the terminal issue.

Can anyone tell me that it is anything other than total frustration that has led Ryanair et al to accept prefabs as the lesser of two evils? (I'm still not convinced it is personally)

If Bertie were a man of vision his Chowchesku type legacy project would have been a decent terminal for Dublin airport and not a failed stadium for Blanch

penexpers · 19-06-2006 5:47pm

peter1892 wrote:

OK, you say that but what's the alternative? A summer of building work while pier D is in progress while pier A becomes massively overcrowded at peak times? Or an airline who are proposing to expand their services from Dublin being blocked from doing so because there's no facilities?

Or option C : buses to take people from the old Pier A gates to the remote gates.

therecklessone · 19-06-2006 6:25pm

penexpers wrote:

Or option C : buses to take people from the old Pier A gates to the remote gates.

Airlines don't like using remote stands. A/c on remote stands take longer to embark/disembark, buses cost money.

The fact that the trendsetter in Europe for quick turnarounds has welcomed this facility is a good indicator of that.

lord lucan · 19-06-2006 7:04pm

ryanair have a sign on the check-in desk advising passengers about the long walk to gates 64-71,they say allow 30 mins from security to gate,it was there last weekend when i flew to luton with them,took me about 20 mins to walk to gate 65 from security so its about right.have to say it is a poxy walk though,maybe its the monotony of un-decorated pre-fab walls that make it so boring!

peter1892 · 19-06-2006 10:02pm

Diaspora wrote:

I don't accept that the situation is accurately displayed by your question.

Pier C opened in 2001 passenger numbers have grown by roughly 1m per year since as first Mama O'Rourke then Che Breannan and most recently Martin E Cullen have fudged the terminal issue.

Can anyone tell me that it is anything other than total frustration that has led Ryanair et al to accept prefabs as the lesser of two evils? (I'm still not convinced it is personally)

If Bertie were a man of vision his Chowchesku type legacy project would have been a decent terminal for Dublin airport and not a failed stadium for Blanch

Diaspora, I've yet to experience this new facility so I can't honestly say how good or bad it is. However, I'm sure you'll agree with me that something needs to be done in Dublin airport to improve it. I'm not convinced that Pier D is the answer, I'm definitely unhappy about T2, it's size & location indictaing that it may be a waste of money. But right now there is at least an attept by DAA to try & do something positive. What would you suggest as an alternative to the current arrangements?

I don't honestly think that in some way Ryanair are being given a bad deal by this development. The fact that they are continuing to add routes out of Dublin would suggest that they are much happier with arrangements at DUB now than at any time in the last 10 years. And let's face it, Michael O'Leary isn't the kind of person to stay quiet when he's unhappy about the situation!

If it is indeed an awful place I'll certainly say so after I've been there!

Victor · 20-06-2006 6:56am

Prefab and temporary are not the same.

Prefab and poor design / construction are not the same.

These facilities are there to allow for summer peak usage and are unlikely to be used in the winter.

jjbrien · 20-06-2006 8:47am

peter1892 wrote:

I'm definitely unhappy about T2, it's size & location indictaing that it may be a waste of money. But right now there is at least an attept by DAA to try & do something positive. What would you suggest as an alternative to the current arrangements?

The new terminal and piers at Dublin Airport are not going to add any additional capacity to the Airport. It acutually will only bring the aircraft that are parked on remote stands onto stands at the termnials. So it may provide quicker turn around times but it will not provide much extra capasity.

Olivia Mitchell TD wrote:

Fine Gael Transport Spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell TD has warned that Dublin Airport Authority’s proposals for a second terminal at Dublin Airport would limit capacity, restrict the number of new flights and push up costs. And she called on Transport Minister Martin Cullen to stop wasting time and to settle the matter as soon as possible.

penexpers · 20-06-2006 11:41am

therecklessone wrote:

Airlines don't like using remote stands. A/c on remote stands take longer to embark/disembark, buses cost money.

Buses are used in quite a few airports already, some of which ryanair use. Bologna-Forli, Barcelona-Prat, Paris-CDG, Lyon-Satolas all use buses to reach remote stands.

No doubt, building the prefabs cost money too, which the DAA are passing onto the airlines.

Diaspora · 20-06-2006 11:44am

In the form of the same charges as for gates A1-14 no doubt

therecklessone · 20-06-2006 11:47am

penexpers wrote:

Buses are used in quite a few airports already, some of which ryanair use. Bologna-Forli, Barcelona-Prat, Paris-CDG, Lyon-Satolas all use buses to reach remote stands.

Believe me, the airlines @ Dublin do not like using remote stands.

[edit]new facility cost €5 million to build[/edit]

dowlingm · 20-06-2006 2:32pm

reckless

I'd love to see an infield pier for embarking/disembarking - make it a 737 only facility (for simplicity) for Ryanair and its LCC brethren but with refuelling and all the other usual niceties. You could run check-in/baggage through the old (the 1930s terminal maybe, shuttling the passengers via bus (maybe buying the DB bendy buses which don't seem to be going down well) while expanding the main terminal for interlining flights to keep transit passenger connection times down. When DUB T1 is fully and properly rebuilt with enough futureproofing you could then repatriate the LCCs back to the main terminal.

There could be an option to retain the infield pier in case an emergency shut down part of DUB (like when CDG's pier collapsed), for special events requiring extra capacity or as a private aircraft facility.

I've used the infield pier at YYZ-T1 for Air Canada 319 and 767 flights and it works as well as can be expected. Ideally access would be built in as part of the 10L/28R project at DUB - at YYZ they built a tunnel under an existing runway which must have cost quite a bit.

[small edit to note I meant the old terminal not the main terminal earlier on]

therecklessone · 20-06-2006 3:11pm

Good idea in principle, but a lot would depend on where you put it, and how you transport your passengers to and from it. Could see it working, but limiting it to 737s would exclude Aer Lingus so that would be a no go.

In effect, isn't the new facility kind of an infield terminal, only connected to the existing structure and relying on good old fashioned footpower?

dowlingm · 20-06-2006 7:39pm

recklessone

EI in the infield pier would be a bit contrary to the intention as it would increase transit pax connection times compared to a main pier-main pier connection. Obviously if LCCs were operating 32x in substantial numbers then you could add that too but then you might have to bring out more cargo handling equipment etc. which would increase the cost of operating the pier. YYZ is a bit different as the LCCs use a different terminal which doesn't have transport to the infield pier.

You could put some 757/767 stands on for large charter who should also be mainly in the infield during reconstruction as again they won't have transit pax but again that raises the complexity of the pier.

Then you'd start building new, decent sized hammerhead piers on the main terminal until you end up with a completely new airside, and rebuild the baggage system etc.

therecklessone · 20-06-2006 7:56pm

dowlingm wrote:

recklessone

EI in the infield pier would be a bit contrary to the intention as it would increase transit pax connection times compared to a main pier-main pier connection.

I wasn't aware Aer Lingus had a significant degree of transit pax anyway, unless you're referring to Aer Arann regionals trafering to Aer Lingus continental (or trans-Atlantic)? I know there's been suggestions they should target transit pax from the UK to the US (and possibly to the Middle East), has that started in earnest?

Victor · 20-06-2006 7:57pm

dowlingm wrote:

infield pier

By "infield" you mean an 'island pier' rather than a 'peninsular pier' attached to the terminal?

therecklessone · 20-06-2006 8:10pm

p.s.

Should add, I was thinking of any infield facility being used by EI flights to sun destinations (of which they serve plenty), which are pretty much point to point flights anyway (and wouldn't require cargo handling capabilities). Can't see EI being happy with a new low-co facility not being able to accomodate their needs.

dam099 · 20-06-2006 9:22pm

dowlingm wrote:

I'd love to see an infield pier for embarking/disembarking - make it a 737 only facility (for simplicity) for Ryanair and its LCC brethren but with refuelling and all the other usual niceties.

737 only would probably be in breach of competition laws, I'm sure Airbus would kick up a fuss. The idea might be sound if it was made with 737 and similar sized competitors aircraft in mind.

dowlingm · 20-06-2006 9:45pm

damo99 - I really really doubt that there would be any such suit. Airbus operators like BD and EI would benefit from less congestion at the main and FR would get the DUB shed they've already wanted. Whether A320s or other types would be handled would be a matter for the DAA, using their traffic modelling and construction plans. As I've said, there's no law saying they couldn't accommodate other types - it would just make it cheaper to do to make it a 737 pier.

recklessone - funny you should ask:
http://p078.ezboard.com/fdublinairportforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=853.topic

FWIW, there were 90+ pax transiting through DUB on the EI104 from JFK on Sunday morning. A record?

Victor

At Toronto Pearson it's referred to as infield because it has a runway between it and the terminal I guess - I think it could be referred to as an island pier also. Under the master plan it was supposed to have 10 stands - I don't know if they eventually put more in or not.

http://www.gtaa.com/documents/news/MasterPlan/master_plan_chapter4.pdf

therecklessone · 20-06-2006 11:11pm

dowlingm wrote:

recklessone - funny you should ask:
http://p078.ezboard.com/fdublinairportforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=853.topic

Interesting. I always thought there was huge undeveloped potential there, do you know if this was One World transfers? Or are Aer Lingus marketing Dub for transit of their own accord?

US immigration at EIDW and EINN is a massive bonus for airlines trying to attract transatlantic passengers.

One other thing...if an infield facility was to be built for 737s, thus freeing up space in the existing terminal and allowing more scope for redevelopment, I've a pretty strong feeling the non 737 operators out of Pier A would object to paying for a new facility for Ryanair (through increased landing charges) while they were stuck in a building site for a few more years. Having been on the receiving end with Aer Rianta (now DAA) in the late 90s, I can assure you that was the prevailing mindset back then.

dowlingm · 21-06-2006 4:09am

recklessone

on transit pax - not clear yet. With EI leaving oneworld it's possible Malev/Finnair pax could join AA flights rather than EI ones at DUB.

As for DUB redevelopment, you could be right - this is all theory. However, FR would say the infield is all anyone should need to use and rebuilding DUB for ops favourable to transit is "gold plating"

. What DUB needs is a complete rethink of all current operations but the current plan to just stick bits on here and there seems even worse as then *everybody* is in the building site.

jjbrien · 21-06-2006 8:31am

I personally think that Dublin needs to do what Oslo did in the late 90's they left FBU running as normal and started to construct a new Airport on another site. When OSL was completed they closed FBU. Which worked extreemly well and was completed in double quick time as there was no avation traffic getting in the way.

Now I dont think we need to move the airport but they could start consrcung a new Airport site on a diffrent part of the airport lands. When that is finised they should then knock down the existing terminals and put a new one up.

peter1892 · 21-06-2006 10:01am

jjbrien wrote:

Now I dont think we need to move the airport but they could start consrcung a new Airport site on a diffrent part of the airport lands. When that is finised they should then knock down the existing terminals and put a new one up.

Which is why it would have been good to see the lands on the western side of the field used for a new terminal (with access from the now upgraded N2 route), whether it was built by DAA or another operator (e.g. the McEvaddy's who own a lot fo that land anyway). It might still happen, sadly I see the current T2 proposal as another opportunity lost....

BendiBus · 21-06-2006 12:16pm

I used the new extension outbound on Monday & back last night. Mostly Ryanair with a few charters too. It IS a long walk but there are notices saying to allow for the walking time.

Coming back last night there were 3 aircraft disembarking at about the same time. Probably about 500 people. Anticipating passport check chaos, I walked as fast as I could. My legs are still aching! But I was straight through passport control - still just 2 lines available

On the positive side, there's a nice view of the original terminal to be had on the walk to the gates.

Security screening at Dublin is outstandingly quick these days. There was a long line when I arrived at the airport but it moved at a walking pace. I was well impressed.

Ryanair online checkin is fantastic too. Checked in for both outbound and return flights on Sunday evening.

So if you plan a little, it's quite possible to negotiate the airport (even the prefab bit) with minimum fuss.

Crap as is it, Dublin is a hell of a lot better than either Heathrow or Gatwick. If you want to see passport control queues, visit Gatwick! For long walks, visit either. You should see the roasting the BAA London airports got in the London Evening Standard this week. Dublin has it easy.

Victor · 22-06-2006 2:15pm

I wonder how many journeys now include more time spent walking than flying

jjbrien · 22-06-2006 8:03pm

Victor wrote:

I wonder how many journeys now include more time spent walking than flying

I am here packing for my flight to liverpool this evening with ryanair. I will have to get my walking shoes on then and get ready for the airport olympics.

First there is the the 100m hurdles (security area)
Then the much loved 1km run ( long walk to prefab city)
Then the 200m sprint (the usual run to the ryanair plane to get a good seat)

At leat I will be getting a good workout!!! :rolleyes:

New Pier A prefabs in Dublin Airport

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