Not Gordon's Gin

emergingwriter · 20-10-2014 9:45am #1

Hi

Anyone know where I can report a pub that is pouring non-Gordon's gin from a Gordon's gin bottle? It must be illegal (and I expect it's not just the gin they are doing it to) but what agency or perhaps the distributor will investigate?

BeerNut · 20-10-2014 9:48am

I'm reasonably sure that's the Food Safety Authority's job.

dudara · 20-10-2014 10:17am

I'd also consider the Excise section of Revenue. Fraud in sprits is taken quite seriously. And also, definitely contact Gordon's distributor.

The Hill Billy · 20-10-2014 10:25am

Moved to Consumer Issues.

tHB

emergingwriter · 20-10-2014 10:32pm

HI

thanks. Not sure about the Food safety authority. They're more to do with hygiene.
Revenue ? I'll try
Diageo own Gordon's. They're website is particularly obtuse. Only contact details for investors?

Grab All Association · 20-10-2014 10:43pm

emergingwriter wrote: »

HI

thanks. Not sure about the Food safety authority. They're more to do with hygiene.
Revenue ? I'll try
Diageo own Gordon's. They're website is particularly obtuse. Only contact details for investors?

FSAI investigate food fraud and i'm sure they will investigate this for you. Revenue is another avenue too as mentioned above. The FSAI work throughout the country and are buying food products from supermarkets and fish, burgers and kebabs from takeaways and test them. Was the FSAI who discovered the supermarkets were selling us horse meat.

L1011 · 20-10-2014 10:53pm

A now changed hands/renamed Temple Bar venue got in trouble for selling 27% pisswater as 40% vodka but it has so cleanly vanished off Google I suspect they've pulled a Right To Be Forgotten on it. Nearly sure it was Revenue in that case. But it falls well in to the FSAI remit too.

sidcon · 20-10-2014 10:58pm

Revenue is the way to go on this, it's revenue fraud as you can be guaranteed it's not paid it's duty

the beer revolu · 21-10-2014 10:43am

How do you know this?

Miaireland · 21-10-2014 11:31am

Contact both Revenue and the Food Safety Authority. If they are not the correct places to contact I am sure they will advise you where else to contact.

Guy:Incognito · 21-10-2014 6:42pm

dudara wrote: »

I'd also consider the Excise section of Revenue. Fraud in sprits is taken quite seriously. And also, definitely contact Gordon's distributor.

I wouldn't think theres an excise issue if both have been bought in Ireland with duty paid.

Mountjoy Mugger · 22-10-2014 2:10pm

The NSAI recommend contacting the National Consumer Agency if you suspect it's watered etc and the NSAI if it's of questionable measure.

The fact you indicate that it may not be genuine would indicate that Gordon's might be the more appropriate.

rubadub · 23-10-2014 9:48am

Chris___ wrote: »

kebabs from takeaways and test them.

There were interesting cases here and in the UK about "doner kebabs" which had little or no lamb. "Doner" means rotate or similar, the term has nothing to do with lamb and makes no claim about what the meat is, unless the menu says it. Even then I wondered if having some lamb made it OK. Even wikis page on doners says they contain various meats. One report was saying they did specify lamb, but I would have liked to have seen exact wording or photos, as I still suspect it might have been a official saying "your menu says doner, that means lamb"

In this case I am wondering if they are allowed pour a different gin into a gordons bottle and serve it. Many people will just request a "gin & tonic" and that is why they might get, gin which was in a "decanter". I have wondered the same about vodka, its even more common for people to request a "vodka & coke" without specifiying smirnoff or whatever.

So I wondered if a bar could legitimately have 2 bottles of smirnoff, one real, one decanted into. And if the customer requests smirnoff they give them the real one. Underhanded certainly, but illegal?

Yawns · 23-10-2014 9:55am

I've brought this up before and no genuine answer rubadub. It's certainly underhanded but I don't think it's illegal. If your put a Boru vodka into a Smirnoff bottle, as long as a customer just asks for a vodka and coke, then it would be technically fine. If they asked for a Smirnoff and coke, then they'd have to be given a Smirnoff vodka and not the Boru in a Smirnoff bottle. They can do it and get away with it technically as far as I know.

Beano · 23-10-2014 10:45am

If they put boru vodka into a smirnoff bottle how is that not passing off and therefore illegal? The fact that simply ask for vodka is irrelevant. If you see a measure taken from a bottle labelled smirnoff you expect that measure to contain smirnoff. It is not fine, technically or any other way.

http://www.shelflife.ie/passing-off-how-much-of-a-problem-here/

Yawns · 23-10-2014 4:26pm

Where in the link you provided say it's illegal?

We're not questioning that it's not ethical, but it's not illegal. In that link you provided it says it itself.

Now here's another one that I see happen a lot, just while we're on it. If you order a Jagermeister in Ireland, chances are the pub will have a different herbal liquor instead. It will be in it's own brand bottle and not like the vodka sample above. People don't question this when the barman brings over a shot tho, but how many people order a shot of herbal liquor instead of saying a Jagermeister.

You can complain to the likes of Diageo as they'll be concerned that a publican is taking advantage of their advertising whilst substituting for an inferior product. However I sill think the points stands at moment that if a customer walks in and asks for a vodka & coke, once they get a vodka & coke, the publican is fulfilling their end. If they ask for a Smirnoff & coke, then they must not be giving a different vodka.

I'm willing to be shown otherwise, but anyone that says the above can't be / is not true, has yet to show me what law a publican would be breaking. If you can show it's illegal then brilliant and I'll know for myself because as it stands afaik, the likes of Diageo can try and sue for use of their intellectual property but the likes of the national consumer agency don't want to know or help consumers when something like this happens.

Beano · 23-10-2014 4:57pm

Yawns wrote: »

Where in the link you provided say it's illegal?

We're not questioning that it's not ethical, but it's not illegal. In that link you provided it says it itself.

Now here's another one that I see happen a lot, just while we're on it. If you order a Jagermeister in Ireland, chances are the pub will have a different herbal liquor instead. It will be in it's own brand bottle and not like the vodka sample above. People don't question this when the barman brings over a shot tho, but how many people order a shot of herbal liquor instead of saying a Jagermeister.

You can complain to the likes of Diageo as they'll be concerned that a publican is taking advantage of their advertising whilst substituting for an inferior product. However I sill think the points stands at moment that if a customer walks in and asks for a vodka & coke, once they get a vodka & coke, the publican is fulfilling their end. If they ask for a Smirnoff & coke, then they must not be giving a different vodka.

I'm willing to be shown otherwise, but anyone that says the above can't be / is not true, has yet to show me what law a publican would be breaking. If you can show it's illegal then brilliant and I'll know for myself because as it stands afaik, the likes of Diageo can try and sue for use of their intellectual property but the likes of the national consumer agency don't want to know or help consumers when something like this happens.

Here

Owners Deli Delicious Ltd were found guilty of deceiving the public

Yawns · 23-10-2014 5:07pm

Are we in England now and English law applies to us?

That's a new one to me!

Beano · 23-10-2014 5:10pm

Yawns wrote: »

Are we in England now and English law applies to us?

That's a new one to me!

we are both common law jurisdictions. passing off is a tort in common law. Just because the authorities cant be arsed to do anything about it does not change that.

Yawns · 23-10-2014 5:17pm

I'll await until I see it in Irish law tbh. As I said there's certainly a case for misuse of IP of another company but for the consumer there's very little to no protection in a legal sense providing they ask for vodka and coke.

If Diageo were to bring someone to court over misuse of their IP and it was proven that a cheaper vodka was in it, then the pub would be in trouble over IP infringement.

sconhome · 24-10-2014 4:20pm

Yawns wrote: »

I've brought this up before and no genuine answer rubadub. It's certainly underhanded but I don't think it's illegal. If your put a Boru vodka into a Smirnoff bottle, as long as a customer just asks for a vodka and coke, then it would be technically fine. If they asked for a Smirnoff and coke, then they'd have to be given a Smirnoff vodka and not the Boru in a Smirnoff bottle. They can do it and get away with it technically as far as I know.

This makes most sense. If you ask for a 'gin and tonic', they could pour the gin from a milk bottle but it's not being deceit unless it's not gin. If they handed you a vodka and tonic and said here's your G&T that's misrepresenting the goods.

Until you ask for it you wouldn't know what bottle the gin came in. The issue as pointed out is if you ask for Gordons and you get Bombay instead (or whatever, I don't know many gin types

).

Interested in the outcome.

Beano · 24-10-2014 4:41pm

AKW wrote: »

This makes most sense. If you ask for a 'gin and tonic', they could pour the gin from a milk bottle but it's not being deceit unless it's not gin. If they handed you a vodka and tonic and said here's your G&T that's misrepresenting the goods.

Until you ask for it you wouldn't know what bottle the gin came in. The issue as pointed out is if you ask for Gordons and you get Bombay instead (or whatever, I don't know many gin types ).

Interested in the outcome.

what if you asked for a gin and tonic and they poured the gin out of a bottle marked Gordons but was actually bombay? Would you be ok with that?

sconhome · 24-10-2014 5:28pm

Beano wrote: »

what if you asked for a gin and tonic and they poured the gin out of a bottle marked Gordons but was actually bombay? Would you be ok with that?

(I wouldn't have a clue of the difference in the gins)

If it was at a bar and seeing the Gordons bottle influenced my decision to order a gin & tonic rather than say a vodka & tonic then yes I see your point re generic product in a branded bottle.

But are they doing anything wrong? (Technically rather than morally)

my3cents · 24-10-2014 7:26pm

Does it change the situation if the bar has a number of gins in optics on display. If you ask for a G & T and there is more than one choice then the barman has to make the choice of Gordons for you if you don't specify it.

L1011 · 24-10-2014 7:27pm

Beano wrote: »

what if you asked for a gin and tonic and they poured the gin out of a bottle marked Gordons but was actually bombay? Would you be ok with that?

If it was marked as anything other than Hendricks and contained Hendricks I'd be very, very displeased. Otherwise its much of a muchness really...

ShooterSF · 24-10-2014 11:07pm

You might want to contact Diageo too if you can. I'm no fan of how much they like to use their control of products to pressure pubs but in this case it may be advantageous.

As an aside, I do agree with some here that not specifying a brand as a customer always seemed strange to me. They have even ran huge marketing campaigns for Smirnoff to drive this point home. That's why bars can carry cheaper alternatives to these products. How many types of white rum do most bars stock?

Yawns · 24-10-2014 11:11pm

Diageo would be the best way to get something sorted because if a pub is doing it, then Diageo can investigate themselves and try to take action. It's their intellectual property that's being abused. They would have the finance to be able to try to do something about it. The consumer gets shafted tho as the likes of the NCA can't be arsed about it.

goz83 · 26-10-2014 11:05am

AKW wrote: »

This makes most sense. If you ask for a 'gin and tonic', they could pour the gin from a milk bottle but it's not being deceit unless it's not gin. If they handed you a vodka and tonic and said here's your G&T that's misrepresenting the goods.

Until you ask for it you wouldn't know what bottle the gin came in. The issue as pointed out is if you ask for Gordons and you get Bombay instead (or whatever, I don't know many gin types ).

Interested in the outcome.

I would disagree here, because it is misrepresentation of products. Not only is it an IP issue, but a consumer issue too.

To give one example of how a consumer could be fooled into ordering a sub-standard beverage:

Niall walks over to the barman and asks for a vodka and coke. The barman pours a measure of cheap Aldi vodka from a smirnoff bottle and pours the coke from a coca-cola bottle, which actually contains a cheap, supermarket brand instead. Really pinching the pennies, I know. Niall sips on his Aldi vodka and cola (not to put Aldi down, I shop there) and knows no difference and seems to enjoy his first sip.

Jeffrey, who wouldn't normally drink vodka and coke is influenced by seeing Niall drink his beverage. It was the kick he needed after seeing all that Smirnoff and Coca-Cola advertising on TV and hearing it on the radio. He ask the barman for "one of those too", expecting to be served smirnoff and coca-cola, because that is what he is led to believe he is ordering, due to the bottles being used to serve the cheaper products. Jeffrey is now drinking something he did not order. Jeffrey also very likely paid the price (plus VAT) of the premium products too. Remember, Jeffrey did not ask for a vodka and coke. He saw, what he believed to be heavily advertised and premium branded products being served to a customer and asked the barman, for what he thought were premium branded products.

And there-in lies the problem. You can't serve p!ss and pass it off as water. The taste (i assume :pac:) is just not the same.

893bet · 26-10-2014 12:03pm

How do u know ?

Yawns · 26-10-2014 2:22pm

But Jeffery asked for "one of those too". Which was simply a vodka & coke, which would be what he got. It's not right and thankfully it's not like a lot of pubs do it, but it does go on. I'm not agreeing with it, but as consumers we have no protection from it because the likes of the NCA can't be arsed.

coylemj · 26-10-2014 3:39pm

There is no effective sanction in criminal law for the deliberate act of what is known as 'passing off'. Recent cases concerning McCambridges wholemeal bread (v. Brennans in similar packaging) or the Karen Millen lookalike clothes in Dunnes went to court as civil cases. There is nothing a simple consumer can do about it other than report it to the producer or local distributor and ask them to do something about it.

The consumer would have to sue the publican for damages which in most cases would simply be a fraction of the value of the goods purchased i.e. I asked for brand 'X' and paid €5, you gave me brand 'Y' which is a cheaper and inferior product for which I would have expected to pay no more than €3 - you're going to go to court for €2 damages? Yes, I know that if this was the US the lawyers would lump in a claim for $100,000,000 damages but this is not the US and you couldn't go claiming damages for trauma in an Irish court for something as simple as product switching.

In small scale 'passing off' situations like a pub selling Fanta when you asked for a Club Orange, the best you can expect is that the owners (in this case C&C) goes to court to embarrass the pub and gets an injunction preventing them from selling other products when the customer specifically asks for a Club Orange. There is usually no mention of damages in those cases because even if they could produce 20 customers who were fobbed off with other products, the loss of revenue would be minimal.

Not Gordon's Gin

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