Fee proposal for new build - is this extortionate?

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Its not an accusation-I have encountered it on numerous occasions over the years and there was article in the Irish times several years ago about the practice. Seems it is is not recommended by the professional body for Architects nor is it condoned!

..what utter rubbish..

My point is that you are better off trying to find a builder independently of the Architect for the reasons stated.

Another anomaly is that an Architectural technician can call himself/herself an Architect if he /she is a member of the RIAI. There is a difference between an Architect and an Architectural Technician.

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

Another anomaly is that an Architectural technician can call himself/herself an Architect if he /she is a member of the RIAI. There is a difference between an Architect and an Architectural Technician.

Now you really are talking bull.

While many technologists can and do provide the service quoted, they are not permitted to call themselves architects, and the last ones who could get away with trying it are those that are members of the riai. They'd be booted out immediately.

DOCARCH wrote: »

No...they cannot!

Straight off the RIAI website:

Regulation of the Title Architect
Frequently Asked Questions
Contents
Introduction ............................................................................................................................................................... 1
1. Why is the title ‘architect’ regulated? ................................................................................................................. 2
a) Why is a process of Registration needed? ........................................................................................................ 2
b) How does the Building Control Act protect consumers? ................................................................................... 2
c) Why is the RIAI now writing to people practising as architects who are not on the Register?........................... 3
2. Who needs to register as an architect? .............................................................................................................. 3
d) Who do the provisions about the title architect apply to? .................................................................................. 3
e) Is all use of the word architect regulated? ......................................................................................................... 3
f) I am qualified and registered in another State, do I have to register to be based here? ................................... 3
g) I don’t run my own practice, I am an employee, do I have to register? ............................................................. 4
h) I describe myself as an architect because I have my qualifications, but I am not actually providing
architectural services, can I continue to do this? ........................................................................................................ 4
3. Can I register, and if so how? .............................................................................................................................. 4
i) How do I register if I have recognised qualifications from within the Irish State? .............................................. 4
j) How do I register if I have been practising as an architect but do not have recognised qualifications? ............ 4
k) How do I register if I have qualifications/recognition as an architect from an EU/EEA Member State? ............ 6
l) How do I register if I have undertaken my qualifications outside the EU/EEA or in more than one country? .... 7
4. Other issues .......................................................................................................................................................... 8
m) What is the difference between RIAI Membership and Registration? ............................................................... 8
n) I can’t/don’t wish to register, what about my business? .................................................................................... 8
Introduction
Prior to the commencement of the Building Control Act 2007 there was no legal regulation of use of the
title of Architect. Any individual could call him or herself an architect and offer services to the public as
such. This situation failed to provide protection to the consumer who had no way of knowing:
a. whether service providers describing themselves as architects had been objectively assessed
as possessing the knowledge, skill and competence required to deliver architectural services, or
b. whether service providers presenting as architects were subject to a code of conduct with
adequate measures for client recourse..
Part 3 of the Building Control Act 2007, which sets out the process for the Registration of Architects, has
been introduced by the State to address this failure.
The following set of ‘Frequently Asked Questions’ is provided to give some clarity with regard to use and
regulation of the title architect. The questions are set out in four groups: N5.7_ (4) D _ FAQ re regulation of title architect_22_11_2011 p. 2 of 8
The Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland
The Registration Body for Architects in Ireland
1. Why is the title ‘architect’ regulated?
2. Who needs to register as an architect?
3. Can I register, and if so how?
4. Other issues
1. Why is the title ‘architect’ regulated?
a) Why is a process of Registration needed?
Registration of the title architect is needed to protect consumers and to promote quality in the built
environment.
Until the enactment of the Building Control Act in 2007 there was no control on who could claim to be an
architect and provide services on that basis. Unfortunately, at times this left the unsuspecting consumer
vulnerable to poor service and low standards without adequate recourse. For example:
• Opinion research carried out for the RIAI prior to the introduction of the Act revealed that 87% of
the public held the view that persons using the title ‘architect’ had to have appropriate academic
and professional qualifications even though that was not the case;
• In 2004, the year prior to the publication of the Building Control Bill 2005, the RIAI received 141
complaints from the public about the activities of people claiming to be architects, who did not in
fact hold recognised architectural qualifications;
• 80% of all of those complaints received by the RIAI in 2004 related to such unqualified
‘architects’.
This issue was brought to a head by a March 2005 RTE Prime Time special which showed the great
difficulties that can be caused to unsuspecting consumers by unqualified and unregulated (i.e. through a
code of conduct) people claiming to be architects.
That year, the then Minister for the Environment announced that he would introduce legislation to
ensure that only suitably qualified and assessed people could be included on a Register of Architects
and offer services to the public on this basis.
b) How does the Building Control Act protect consumers?
The Act establishes a number of different systems to protect the consumer’s interests.
• Defined Level of Competence
All architects on the Register are required to reach an internationally recognised level of
knowledge, skill and competence that has been independently assessed. In the event of
difficulties arising an architect can be judged against this standard and appropriate action taken.
• Code of Conduct and the Professional Conduct Committee
The Act provides for a statutory procedure to deal with consumer complaints, namely the
Professional Conduct Committee (PCC). The committee is independent in its decision making
and is comprised of a majority of non-architects nominated by the Minister. The PCC has the
powers, rights and privileges of a High Court Judge in relation to enforcing the attendance of
witnesses, examination under oath and compelling the production of documents. The Act puts
in place mechanisms to deal with complaints relating to poor professional performance as well
as to professional misconduct. N5.7_ (4) D _ FAQ re regulation of title architect_22_11_2011 p. 3 of 8
The Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland
The Registration Body for Architects in Ireland
• Mediation
Many of the issues raised with the RIAI by consumers/clients relate to poor professional
performance and the Act provides for mediation where these matters can be resolved relatively
quickly between the parties.
c) Why is the RIAI now writing to people practising as architects who are not on the
Register?
Under the Building Control Act, only people on the Register can call themselves ‘architect’ in a manner
suggesting they are registered and the RIAI is required to ensure that this is the case. The register was
established in November 2009 and adequate time has elapsed for individuals to take reasonable steps
to regularise their positions.
The RIAI has been conducting nationwide research to ascertain whether all of those using the title
‘architect’ are in fact registered as implied. Through this painstaking process we have compiled a list of
individuals who may be using, or have used, the title architect without being registered. At this stage,
the RIAI’s objective is to ensure that all of those who may be misusing the title are fully aware of the
legal situation and the options available to them.
2. Who needs to register as an architect?
d) Who do the provisions about the title architect apply to?
• Anyone using the title architect, either alone or in combination with any other words or letters, or
name, title or description, implying that the person is so registered, and
• Anyone who practices or carries on business under any name, style or title containing the word
“architect”
e) Is all use of the word architect regulated?
No, certain professional titles are permitted:
(a) “landscape architect”,
(b) “naval architect”,
(c) “architectural technician”,
(d) “architectural technologist”,
(e) “interior design architect”
f) I am qualified and registered in another State, do I have to register to be

e) Is all use of the word architect regulated?
No, certain professional titles are permitted:
(a) “landscape architect”,
(b) “naval architect”,
(c) “architectural technician”,
(d) “architectural technologist”,
(e) “interior design architect”
f) I am qualified and registered in another State, do I have to register to be

mrsWhippy wrote: »

Some great points here Victor, thanks.

I wish I knew how much of an engineer was needed Does that depend on the complexity of the build structure? What about heating/ventilation/energy management etc, is that usually the architects remit? Or do we need a separate energy consultant for that?

Heating, energy etc varies depending on your architect. Some have trained in passive house design for instance whereas others have fairly limited knowledge and just aim to comply with legislation. We're using an architect but also spending about 1k with an energy consultant

To be honest Mrs Whippy, I am stunned at those prices. I am building my house at the moment but I am under the old regs and from looking at what you have been quoted I am very glad that I am.
I used an Arch technician for drawings and planning and have an engineer supervising, doing my details and signing off on the project. I have an energy consultant. I am project managing, it's a lot of work, but it's an eye opener to the cost of building and what the professionals are making.
There's no point telling you how much I've spent because regs have changed and what I am doing can't be done now apparently.

Of course the architects here are going to tell you that this is a fair quote, they would quote the same most likely if they thought they'd get it. It like turkey's voting for Christmas otherwise. The new regs are a windfall for archetects. Seriously how many hours of actual work is there in it for them and what is the hourly rate. Everybody wants to get as much of your mortgage as they can.

The only advice I can give you is to shop around, big firms with fancy offices have big overheads and staff. Most of the work will be done by technicians. You pay for the office, the technician, the archetect, Range Rovers, secretary, accountants, solicitors and all the other associated services.

By the time you are done with that quote and all the stuff it doesn't include there won't be much change from 50k. That's a whole lot of paperwork. And this calculating by percentage of build is grossly unfair. It should be percentage of materials. Or better still an hourly rate and an estimate of hours required.

Try to find an Archetect working alone from a home office who will give you personal service and advise you on the most cost effective way to proceed. The more he or she can do and the less people involved the cheaper it will be.

As for tendering builders, this is another area where you can lose a lot of money. It is important to get a good builder but it is also important to get one that gives a fair price for labor and doesn't put a premium on materials. I'm putting in a passive slab foundation at the moment. The difference between my highest and lowest quote is €10,000. Will your Archetect find those kind of savings for you at each stage of the build or will they just give the job to one of their trusted builders who knows he's got the job anyway and price accordingly.

Its your money, trust nobody!

sydthebeat wrote: »

Rory, congratulations for posting the most number of bullsh!te posts from a newbie on here ever!
Outstanding! !

Well thank you for you invalid opinion-it may sound like BS but it is actually accurate even if you don't concur. I have been involved in several litigation cases over the last ten years and in all cases the people involved had taken on what they though was an architect only to discover he was not an architect but a technician. In January of this year I was called to a property where a builder was doing an extension for an elderly woman. She had engaged a technician thinking him to be an architect and he had recommended the builder. When I got involved the build was close to completion and the following issues were uncovered:

Hollow block wall with insulation levels inadequate to achieve required U value under TDG PArt L.
Lack of insulation in roof to achieve required U value. TDG Part L
Lack of insulation to prevent cold bridging between floor slab and walls.
Breach of boundary limit with adjacent property.
Faulty wiring
Faulty plumbing.
No radon sump.
Foundations not dug deep enough.

On top of this there was mess everywhere in rear yard and there were rats running about.

When challenged the Technician quipped he was only paid for drawings and not supervision. But he was also being paid to certify the extension as compliant so how can he do this without supervision. This is just one example of several that I have encountered in recent years where builder and Architect/Technician are working together and clearly not in the client's interests.

I may well be a newbie on here but am not a newbie when it comes to experience of construction.

No matter who you use always look for references.

If you are self building follow these simple rules:



RULE No 1

When trying to find a good builder ask your family, your friends or work colleagues if they know of a good builder who has done work for them. Ask was the work done to a good standard. This will make finding a good builder a bit easier and is a good place to start.
RULE No 2

When you do choose a builder, seek references from him for work he has preformed and follow them up. Also keep the Architect/Project manager separate from the builder. It is common and accepted practice for Architects to collect a fee from a builder that they recommend to a client. This is clearly a conflict of interest-the Architect may well be more on the side of the builder than on your side if things go wrong, even thought his contract is with you-it happens.

RULE No 3

Engage the use of construction professionals to help you achieve what you want and to police the construction work for you-especially if you are spending a lot of money.

Ensure they are professionally qualified and registered with the appropriate bodies. Ensure your Architect is an Architect-degree qualified rather than technically qualified-there is a difference.

RULE No 4

Ensure a proper written contract is in place with whatever builder or professional you choose to perform the work for you. Set out what the works/services are, how long it will take and the cost of the works

“PROTECT YOURSELF LEGALLY”

“A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law”

RULE No 5

For large projects like a house build or large extension get a Quantity Surveyor to do up a Bill of Quantities for you. This will give you an accurate costing for the building works. Add 10% for contingency/change of mind issues. Ensure the prices quoted include VAT. Construction works typically attract a VAT rate of 13%

RULE No 6

The most expensive tender is not necessarily the best, nor is the cheapest the worst, but if you try to do it on the cheap it will cost you more in the long run.

RULE No 7

Get proper quotes for all of the work and ensure the quote details all of the work and how much it will cost. Don’t just assume skirting will be fitted if it doesn't say skirting in the quote. If you get an estimate for the works its open for the builder to charge you more than the fee quoted. Agree early with the builder what the scope of the works is to be and the timeframe for the completion of the construction works. Be sure in your own mind as to what you want and as to what you are getting. If you change your mind during the build then there are likely to be extra costs in both time and money. Make up your mind and stick to it before you start the job.

RULE No 8

Ask the builder for a programme for the works. This will set out the time for the completion of the project.

RULE No 9

“Never pay money in advance of the builder starting the work”.

Don’t part with a lot of money early and never pay for work in advance. Stage the payments as the works are completed. Always pay by cheque if you can and get receipts. At the end of the job withhold 5% to 10% of the contract price as retention, tell the builder before the start of the job that you will be doing this and then there are no arguments.

RULE No 10

Avoid becoming over friendly with the builder as it makes it more difficult to be assertive when problems arise. Be civil of course but remember it is a business arrangement and he is not your friend.

RULE NO 11

Check the builder has insurance for liability and all risks, so if your property is damaged you can claim from his insurance. Consider having your own insurance policy and tell your insurance company you are having work done prior to commencement.

RULE No 12

Don’t be afraid to raise any concerns you may have with the builder in regard to anything that is bothering you. It is better to speak up and risk looking a bit foolish rather than not speak up and let a problem drag on or get worse.

RULE No 13

Keep a diary of events, meetings, verbal instructions, phone conversations, Mail, fax, and e-mail. Anything at all that is pertaining to the project-Take photos.

RULE No 14

For any extra work outside of the agreed contract, agree early and get a quote for the work before it is started, that way there can be no inflated price. Don’t be afraid to haggle and be aware by giving the builder more work it will take more time to complete the job-Ask him how much longer it is going to take.

RULE No15

Make yourself aware of your rights under consumer law.

The Sale of Goods and Services Act , 1980
If you have a contract with a supplier of services it is reasonable for you to expect that:

The supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service.
The service will be provided with proper care and diligence.
The materials used will be sound and that goods supplied with the service will be of merchantable quality.
FINALLY

Buy a construction book to give yourself some basic knowledge and remove the fear of seeming stupid by not knowing!

These are good books to use:

1: Construction of Buildings 1 & 2 by R. Bar

DOCARCH wrote: »

All I was referring to was the additional time it has been estimated that it may take act as Assigned Certifier under the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations, i.e., time that may be required in addition to 'standard services' that an architect might provide.

I'm a little unclear here, do you mean that it 160hrs work for the role of the assignied certifier alone? Or is 160hrs work for what the quote has covered? If the former, how many hours work would you estimate there is in what was quoted for?

sydthebeat wrote: »

well if you think its perfectly fine for a technician to call themself an "architect" because they are "registered with the riai" then you obviously have a lack of understanding of BCA 2007

I don't think that-I have been saying totally the opposite-clearly you have not read through my posts.

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

No matter who you use always look for references.

If you are self building follow these simple rules:



RULE No 1

When trying to find a good builder ask your family, your friends or work colleagues if they know of a good builder who has done work for them. Ask was the work done to a good standard. This will make finding a good builder a bit easier and is a good place to start.
RULE No 2

When you do choose a builder, seek references from him for work he has preformed and follow them up. Also keep the Architect/Project manager separate from the builder. It is common and accepted practice for Architects to collect a fee from a builder that they recommend to a client. This is clearly a conflict of interest-the Architect may well be more on the side of the builder than on your side if things go wrong, even thought his contract is with you-it happens.

RULE No 3

Engage the use of construction professionals to help you achieve what you want and to police the construction work for you-especially if you are spending a lot of money.

Ensure they are professionally qualified and registered with the appropriate bodies. Ensure your Architect is an Architect-degree qualified rather than technically qualified-there is a difference.

RULE No 4

Ensure a proper written contract is in place with whatever builder or professional you choose to perform the work for you. Set out what the works/services are, how long it will take and the cost of the works

“PROTECT YOURSELF LEGALLY”

“A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law”

RULE No 5

For large projects like a house build or large extension get a Quantity Surveyor to do up a Bill of Quantities for you. This will give you an accurate costing for the building works. Add 10% for contingency/change of mind issues. Ensure the prices quoted include VAT. Construction works typically attract a VAT rate of 13%

RULE No 6

The most expensive tender is not necessarily the best, nor is the cheapest the worst, but if you try to do it on the cheap it will cost you more in the long run.

RULE No 7

Get proper quotes for all of the work and ensure the quote details all of the work and how much it will cost. Don’t just assume skirting will be fitted if it doesn't say skirting in the quote. If you get an estimate for the works its open for the builder to charge you more than the fee quoted. Agree early with the builder what the scope of the works is to be and the timeframe for the completion of the construction works. Be sure in your own mind as to what you want and as to what you are getting. If you change your mind during the build then there are likely to be extra costs in both time and money. Make up your mind and stick to it before you start the job.

RULE No 8

Ask the builder for a programme for the works. This will set out the time for the completion of the project.

RULE No 9

“Never pay money in advance of the builder starting the work”.

Don’t part with a lot of money early and never pay for work in advance. Stage the payments as the works are completed. Always pay by cheque if you can and get receipts. At the end of the job withhold 5% to 10% of the contract price as retention, tell the builder before the start of the job that you will be doing this and then there are no arguments.

RULE No 10

Avoid becoming over friendly with the builder as it makes it more difficult to be assertive when problems arise. Be civil of course but remember it is a business arrangement and he is not your friend.

RULE NO 11

Check the builder has insurance for liability and all risks, so if your property is damaged you can claim from his insurance. Consider having your own insurance policy and tell your insurance company you are having work done prior to commencement.

RULE No 12

Don’t be afraid to raise any concerns you may have with the builder in regard to anything that is bothering you. It is better to speak up and risk looking a bit foolish rather than not speak up and let a problem drag on or get worse.

RULE No 13

Keep a diary of events, meetings, verbal instructions, phone conversations, Mail, fax, and e-mail. Anything at all that is pertaining to the project-Take photos.

RULE No 14

For any extra work outside of the agreed contract, agree early and get a quote for the work before it is started, that way there can be no inflated price. Don’t be afraid to haggle and be aware by giving the builder more work it will take more time to complete the job-Ask him how much longer it is going to take.

RULE No15

Make yourself aware of your rights under consumer law.

The Sale of Goods and Services Act , 1980
If you have a contract with a supplier of services it is reasonable for you to expect that:

The supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service.
The service will be provided with proper care and diligence.
The materials used will be sound and that goods supplied with the service will be of merchantable quality.
FINALLY

Buy a construction book to give yourself some basic knowledge and remove the fear of seeming stupid by not knowing!

These are good books to use:

1: Construction of Buildings 1 & 2 by R. Bar

By and large a good post - but also in need of updating to account for modern build schedules and methods as well as the current bank & finance situation. Rule 9 is out of sync imho.

And it seems predicated on the fact that the only one needing protection is the consumer. Builders get caught, and left short of final payments all too often - in particular retention is used as a stick or way to haggle out of a sum that's already contracted.