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Shannon supplying water to Dublin?

13

Comments

  • #102
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Plastic corrodes slowly.....

    what'r gas mains made from in torono?
    New gas mains are plastic, apparently. The thing is you don't drink gas, and given the concern here about stuff like bisphenol A you'd have to be really sure of your ground to compete with the people who believe everything they read on the interwebs to persuade them that their water was not now fully of polymer molecules.


  • #103
    Lu Tze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    dowlingm wrote: »
    New != better. Apparently Toronto's cast iron 100 year pipes have a lower failure rate than the "improved" pipes laid from the mid 1950s because it turns out those ones are more susceptible to corrosion. When you're dealing with lifespans of decades, it's tricky to innovate.

    I think they are referring here to structural failure. Both pipes are made from the same material, but spun iron wall thickness is much thinner than cast iron, hence it has corroded through.They also mention that the sun iron pipes are laid in a more corrosive soil.

    There is no mention though of how the older pipes are performing hydraulically, with loss of bore, encrustation etc.

    I have seen reports taken on pipe samples in ireland, cast iron laid pre 1900 is some cases that are still structurally ok and have 30+ years to end of life but might have a reduced bore due to encrustation i.e. a 4" diameter pipe might have the internal bore of 1"

    Couldnt find a better example from google images so this will have to do

    figure34.jpg


  • #104
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    dowlingm wrote: »
    New gas mains are plastic, apparently. The thing is you don't drink gas, and given the concern here about stuff like bisphenol A you'd have to be really sure of your ground to compete with the people who believe everything they read on the interwebs to persuade them that their water was not now fully of polymer molecules.

    Do they not have qualpex piping in Canada?


  • #105
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,539 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Do they not have qualpex piping in Canada?

    Rigid plastic piping seems to be very much an Irish thing. Qualpex is Irish through and through; UK uses softer Hepworth stuff that even has plastic connectors. And leaks, from experience :mad:


  • #106
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Do they not have qualpex piping in Canada?
    There is a thing called Ipex which is getting popular, and since you reminded me I looked up their site and see they do some municipal products. I don't know if it's the same thing as qualpex though. It's replacing copper in some household systems especially in pressure balanced systems I've seen in home reno tv shows - if I was doing a whole-house refit I'd definitely consider it.


  • #107
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Update on this here:
    CALLS TO fast-track the building of a reservoir in Co Offaly to supply drinking water from the river Shannon to Dublin and surrounding counties will be discussed today.

    TDs and Senators on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment will have talks on the plans today in Dublin.

    They will discuss plans to build a reservoir on a 1,500-acre site at Garryhinch, Co Offaly. The location is near the Co Laois town of Portarlington.

    The plans have met with strong resistance from campaigners in the Shannon region.

    The committee members will meet Bord na Móna executives and managing director Gabriel D’Arcy before travelling to Garryhinch tomorrow.

    Bord na Móna says the €480 million development – the first major Irish reservoir to be built in 60 years – would create 1,000 jobs during its three-year construction phase.

    The planned lake will store piped water from Lough Derg before it is moved to Dublin.

    According to Bord na Móna, a number of permanent positions would be created on completion, with plans for a water sports and tourist amenity incorporating a nature reserve around the 800-acre man-made lake.

    The reservoir, which is expected to require 2 per cent of the Shannon’s full capacity flow, would supply water to Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow and further applications have been made by local authorities in Laois, Offaly and Westmeath.

    Laois-based Labour Senator John Whelan insisted there was a critical need for the Government to sanction the project.

    The construction of more than 500,000 houses in the past decade without any consideration for basic water supply was absurd, Mr Whelan commented.

    “As bizarre as it may seem, Ireland is running out of water, the supply-demand balance is on a knife-edge, and if we don’t take action such as backing the Bord na Móna plan, there will be dire consequences for households, industry, small businesses and farming,” he said.

    However, River Shannon Protection Alliance chairman Martin McEnroe disputed the job figures and claimed the plan would have a negative impact on the entire Shannon region. He said more than 50 per cent of the water supply is lost through leakage and urged the Government to concentrate on repairing existing infrastructure.

    “This is going to stymie development in the Shannon region,” Mr McEnroe claimed.

    “This is all spin. The reality of it is if they interfere with the Shannon they are interfering with a huge ecosystem.”

    Mr McEnroe said the Dublin region would be prioritised above the Shannon region should a drought occur. “They see the midlands as an endless supply of water,” he remarked.

    “You can’t trust politicians – look at Enda Kenny during the hospital issue.”

    Vowing to fight the project, Mr McEnroe said development in the Shannon region would suffer as a result of the planned extraction of water from the Shannon.

    Gerry Siney, of the alliance, said thousands of jobs could be created immediately if Dublin City Council employed people to repair leaking city pipes.

    Alternative sources of water should have been more thoroughly investigated, added Mr Siney, who said: “This is a madcap proposal, it isn’t necessary and it is going to cause damage.”

    Bord na Móna director of strategic infrastructure Colm Ó Gogáin said that the project would have a “negligible” impact on the Shannon.

    Initially the reservoir will supply 250 million litres per day but that figure would rise to 350 million in about 10 years, Mr Ó Gogáin explained.

    He said that there was an “urgency” in relation to water supply. If all went to plan the reservoir would not be completed until 2020 at the earliest, he added.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0719/1224300948011.html


  • #108
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    From the above article:
    However, River Shannon Protection Alliance chairman Martin McEnroe disputed the job figures and claimed the plan would have a negative impact on the entire Shannon region. He said more than 50 per cent of the water supply is lost through leakage and urged the Government to concentrate on repairing existing infrastructure.

    The guy has a valid point. I worked in the Water Department of a Dublin County Council and the amount of wasted manpower was beyond a joke. The vast majority of staff did basically nothing. The Water Supply should be privatised in this country. Bring in people who actually know how to run a water system. The system we have now with 4 Dublin councils hoarding water from each other is nonsense.


  • #109
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    mgmt wrote: »
    The guy has a valid point. I worked in the Water Department of a Dublin County Council and the amount of wasted manpower was beyond a joke. The vast majority of staff did basically nothing. The Water Supply should be privatised in this country. Bring in people who actually know how to run a water system. The system we have now with 4 Dublin councils hoarding water from each other is nonsense.
    We have 34 local authorities controling our water infrastructure with the result being each council does several small jobs but there is no money for the larger projects that are needed. We need one authority to look after our water infrastructure which would give an economy of scale. I see Bord na Mona want to become the new water company being proposed by the Government. They actually seem quite well run so I think it makes sense to redevelop these guys instead of creating another quango which will probably pick up the bad habits of the others.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bord-na-mona-hoping-to-take-control-of-nations-water-supply-2824704.html


  • #110
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    We are getting a National Water Authority, Gormley started the process early this year. Ye man McEnroe sounds like a complete and utter buffoon. Next month he will be begging for flood defences for Biffos against the Shannon.

    Dublin has the lowest losses in the country, sub 30%. On my boreen it is 85% , the ****ing thing is a sieve.


  • #111
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    mgmt wrote: »
    From the above article:



    The guy has a valid point. I worked in the Water Department of a Dublin County Council and the amount of wasted manpower was beyond a joke. The vast majority of staff did basically nothing. The Water Supply should be privatised in this country. Bring in people who actually know how to run a water system. The system we have now with 4 Dublin councils hoarding water from each other is nonsense.

    You could say that for most state run authorities tbh, awh well we just have to pay our taxes so that they sit around drinking coffee.


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  • #112
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I'm assuming the people campaigning against this proposal are the same ones who spent years campaiging to "Drain the Shannon" and likewise complain about yearly flooding?


  • #113
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    They are lunatics, think Mysterious(ly) :)

    http://www.shannonprotectionalliance.ie/images/12_13RN2007-09-18e1.pdf


  • #114
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    I came across this in the minutes of the June DCC meeting. It might be of some interest:
    COUNCILLOR CIERAN PERRY
    Can the Manager provide the results of the pilot testing for water leaks carried out by Dublin City Council as quoted by Executive Manager Tom Leahy at the Water Metering Summit? Can the Manager detail the amount of leaks discovered on private properties compared to those discovered on public properties?

    CITY MANAGER’S REPLY:
    Due to the absence of domestic metering there is limited data on leakage associated with domestic dwellings in Ireland. There is information available from the UK which has a comparable climate and plumbing system but limited information or data on the
    Irish experience. In order to address this issue, a pilot was carried out on the Merrion Road South as part of the Dublin Region Watermain Rehabilitation Project. This area was ranked 11th worst performing (in terms of leakage and burst frequency) of over 600 district meter areas in the Dublin Region. All non domestic users (24 in number) were previously metered as part of the non domestic metering programme using AMR technology which allows driveby gathering of meter data. A total of 212 AMR meters
    were placed on all domestic dwellings to identify leakage.

    Every public main was replaced and meter readings confirmed that not a drop of water was being lost on public mains. However when average usage figures were applied to domestic dwellings the Unaccounted for Water (UFW) figure was 19% even though the actual loss on public mains was zero.

    The full report on the study is available on the Council Website and was submitted to the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government to facilitate consideration of new public policy to address leakage. The initial findings were quite incredible with the three highest usage recorded as 35,309 litres/day (equivalent to water used by 80 houses), 21,506 litres/day (equivalent to 50 houses) and 13,880 litres/day (equivalent to 30 houses) respectively. In summary, three houses had recorded use equivalent to 160 Houses in an area with 212 dwellings. These leaks were between the road and the house and were repaired by householders. The key findings, which appear to be consistent with other data, are that there was excessive use on up to 6% of dwellings with a small number quoting astronomical use.

    After repairs by householders, usage per property is higher in this area than assumed, being 597 Litres/House/Day as opposed to an assumed 450 Litres/Property/Day and customer side leakage was measured at 135 Litres/Property/day compared to assumed figure of 66 Litres/Property/day. This study will provide invaluable input into the debate on the new public policy for water conservation being discussed at central Government.

    There are no figures for the amount of water lost before the public mains were repaired but it shows that the problem isn't just with the local authorities. It also shows that when water meters come along, some people are going to face both expensive water bills and expensive repair bills very suddenly.


  • #115
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    markpb wrote: »
    I came across this in the minutes of the June DCC meeting. It might be of some interest:



    There are no figures for the amount of water lost before the public mains were repaired but it shows that the problem isn't just with the local authorities. It also shows that when water meters come along, some people are going to face both expensive water bills and expensive repair bills very suddenly.

    Indeed, from what I've read the majority of leaks are actually on private property of course as people aren't billed they don't have an incentive to dig up their front garden to see why they are getting high "water bills"


  • #116
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The council should be allowed to cut houses off where usage is 10,000 litres a day, 20 houses worth...say 5 days after service of an excessive usage notice. 10,000 litres = 10 cubic metres, €10 a day worth of water at a treatment cost of €1 per cubic metre which is the rough rule of thumb in Ireland ( with many small treatment plants) I understand.

    Councils have installed way more meters ( on roads ) in recent years and have a good idea of where they are losing water. But they have to 'appeal' to householders in many cases to conserve water. They often had no idea where the water was going as recently as 5 years back.

    An allowance of 500 litres per day allows 1 washing machine cycle, 1 dishwasher cycle , 5 showers, 10 flushes and as much water as 3 persons can drink without bursting :)

    People using 500-2500 litres may be amenable to advice on conservation rather than cut off.

    People who allow 10s of 1000s of litres to piss out daily are sociopaths ...unless they do something immediate once informed. A policy of metering and ( if required) cutting off the worst 1% of Irish households evey year would save probably 10% of water in very short order.


  • #117
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    People who allow 10s of 1000s of litres to piss out daily are sociopaths ...unless they do something immediate once informed. A policy of metering and ( if required) cutting off the worst 1% of Irish households evey year would save probably 10% of water in very short order.

    the prime example of course was during the recent cold winter spells. If metering was in place it would have put an end to the sort of behaviour that led to "water rationing" across Dublin.


  • #118
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Automated Meter Reading ( AMR) would have pinpointed serious leaks on a simple drive past. The premises could have been cut off if empty and cut off temporarily for 24 hours if occupied with the council coming back the next day to check on repairs.

    It wouldn't stop people from running taps ut it would stop them running taps 24/7 for fear of a cutoff.

    Galway county council begged holiday home owners in Connemara to check their premises and stop leaks during both cold snaps. In many cases pipes had burst inside and trashed the place. I did check a place along with its owner early in the second cold snap and we managed to drain the system completely and shut it off, took about an hour.


  • #119
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I know that water abstraction from the river Shannon to supply Dublin is a contentious issue but has anyone thought of the possibility that if the proposals to extract natural gas from the Lough Allen basin go ahead, it could have dire environmental consequences for the water quality in the river Shannon?

    The process called "fracking" where water, sand and an assortment of highly toxic chemicals are injected at high pressure into shale to access methane gas has caused huge environmental problems in parts of the USA. In many cases, the fracking water with chemicals has leached into water tables and aquifers and has poisoned people's well and drinking water.

    Also, the wastewater from this "fracking" often contains trace radioactive material such a radium and uranium and this water has to be disposed somewhere. In many cases in the USA, the radioactive and polluted wastewater from fracking operations ends up in streams, lakes and rivers.

    Think about how this could affect the Shannon.:(:mad:

    Check out this link:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/06/fracking-in-pennsylvania-201006


  • #120
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    I know that water abstraction from the river Shannon to supply Dublin is a contentious issue but has anyone thought of the possibility that if the proposals to extract natural gas from the Lough Allen basin go ahead, it could have dire environmental consequences for the water quality in the river Shannon?

    The process called "fracking" where water, sand and an assortment of highly toxic chemicals are injected at high pressure into shale to access methane gas has caused huge environmental problems in parts of the USA. In many cases, the fracking water with chemicals has leached into water tables and aquifers and has poisoned people's well and drinking water.

    Also, the wastewater from this "fracking" often contains trace radioactive material such a radium and uranium and this water has to be disposed somewhere. In many cases in the USA, the radioactive and polluted wastewater from fracking operations ends up in streams, lakes and rivers.

    Think about how this could affect the Shannon.:(:mad:

    Check out this link:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/06/fracking-in-pennsylvania-201006
    There is an article on this in last weeks Celt (local paper);

    http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/07/14/4005504-cavan-urged-to-make-stand-against-gas-drilling-plans/

    There was a thread on this issue on the Politics forum, here, if you are interested.


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  • #121
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    is it just me or is anyone else disapointed when they see the work Fracking and it's nothing to do with Battlestar Galactica? :D


  • #122
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If water metering was about preventing loss, you could just run the meter for 3-6 months and send people notices telling them what their water use would cost if charging was in force. That gives people an opportunity to fix their leaks before getting hammered.

    We have AMR in the house here in Toronto but the city is still working on getting them rolled out to every house, like my mother in law's who loves her lawnsprayer and doing half or quarter loads of laundry but gets a fixed bill.


  • #123
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    I don't know if the Dublin local authorities have something like this but surely if they're claiming wastage is still above 20% (prime time last week) they need to be doing something to identify where (out of 500m liters of water produced every day) approximately 100m liters of water are disappearing to every day.

    Summary of what GCC are doing:
    Split the 4 current water zones in the city council area into 80 separate zones of 800-1000 properties, with an extra 100m of mains and about 100 water meters to facilitate faster identification of leaks.

    Link to article: http://www.galwaynews.ie/21114-citys-water-network-undergo-major-upgrade


  • #124
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I don't know if the Dublin local authorities have something like this but surely if they're claiming wastage is still above 20% (prime time last week) they need to be doing something to identify where (out of 500m liters of water produced every day) approximately 100m liters of water are disappearing to every day.

    Summary of what GCC are doing:
    Split the 4 current water zones in the city council area into 80 separate zones of 800-1000 properties, with an extra 100m of mains and about 100 water meters to facilitate faster identification of leaks.

    Link to article: http://www.galwaynews.ie/21114-citys-water-network-undergo-major-upgrade

    A huge amount of the leakage is on private property. Personally I think stuff like meters should be at the property boundary, the pipe running on the property should be responsibility of property owner. In such a case it would become evident very quickly who has leaks due to the high usage reading etc.


  • #125
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    After watching the Prime Time debate, listening to the DCC representative points, listening to the Shannon groups representatives unbelievable, petty, childish, selfish points and listening to the Doctors impartial points, it's a no brainer.

    DCC need a kick up the ass and they need to patch up the leaks.

    Dubliners, like myself should be metered and charged accordingly.

    Dublin needs and should get water from the Shannon.

    It's a fraction of what the city takes from the Liffey, yet still water activities and wildlife is abundant on the Liffey.

    The water should be taken during the flooding season, when affected people are crying and complaining about the flooding, stored, and fed to the city during the summer.

    The impartial expert said that the city will need the Shannon water even if the leaks are patched up tomorrow.

    This parochial, petty, "not a drop" attitude stinks. Anyone departing on a unsubstantiated, selfish anti water to Dublin should be ashamed of themselves. Dublin city churns enough money to share with the rest of the country (as it should), it works both ways.


  • #126
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    dubhthach wrote: »
    A huge amount of the leakage is on private property. Personally I think stuff like meters should be at the property boundary, the pipe running on the property should be responsibility of property owner. In such a case it would become evident very quickly who has leaks due to the high usage reading etc.

    a) I don't believe any city council in this country when it comes to their claims that "it's not our fault". I can't recall vast amounts of money being pumped into the water system in Dublin, so I don't understand how it went from a major council problem to vast majority private users issue in a few short years. While I do agree there are issues with some private supplies the attitudes of the councils strikes me as more than a bit lazy (we've found 3 houses doing this it can't be our fault).

    b) I think you've missed my point (I do agree with metering of water usage, which granted I haven't stated and is irrelevant to my point) - it takes an unacceptably long time is most parts of the country to find a leak. In this regard both my experience of leaks in Galway & Dublin broadly similar. During the water crisis of winter 2009, the water was gone for a considerable time in Killester while mains leaks were stubbornly hard to find.
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    After watching the Prime Time debate, listening to the DCC representative points, listening to the Shannon groups representatives unbelievable, petty, childish, selfish points and listening to the Doctors impartial points, it's a no brainer.

    I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic with that - the DCC attitude was arrogant in the extreme. Their entire argument was based on the premise that it's not economically viable to fix problems contributing to losing over 100 million liters of water every day. What I heard in that interview can be roughly translated to: We couldn't be bothered to try save up to 20% of the taxpayers money that we spend on our water services, but we will gladly spend hundreds of millions more of said taxpayers money to do the same job. It's no wonder businesses across the country are up in arms about the various rates, levies and taxes they have to pay with attitudes like that.

    The contrast, if one is capable of seeing it, is that Galway is actively doing something about the problem (and not falling into the blame everyone else trap yet-but I am waiting for it to happen). Dublin is whining about the scale of the problem and that it's not their fault (as usual), instead of actually doing something about what they already (are supposed to) control.


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  • #127
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    a) I don't believe any city council in this country when it comes to their claims that "it's not our fault". I can't recall vast amounts of money being pumped into the water system in Dublin, so I don't understand how it went from a major council problem to vast majority private users issue in a few short years.

    I posted in this very thread a month ago about this (link). DCC picked a pilot part of the city, repaired the pipes and connections and then metered the water usage through that part of the system. They found that:
    three houses had recorded use equivalent to 160 Houses in an area with 212 dwellings. These leaks were between the road and the house and were repaired by householders.

    I'm not saying that DCC don't need to do more work but you can't assert that it's all the councils fault and that they're not doing anything about it when a) they have proved that there is a significant failure outside of their control and b) they are fixing it, they're just not telling you when they do it :)


  • #128
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    markpb wrote: »
    I posted in this very thread a month ago about this (link). DCC picked a pilot part of the city, repaired the pipes and connections and then metered the water usage through that part of the system. They found that:

    I saw that post, the conclusions are statistically unsupportable - 1 test from 600 areas - seriously is that what we're basing public policy on?
    markpb wrote: »
    I'm not saying that DCC don't need to do more work but you can't assert that it's all the councils fault and that they're not doing anything about it when a) they have proved that there is a significant failure outside of their control and b) they are fixing it, they're just not telling you when they do it :)

    Sorry, but they haven't proved a citywide problem, they've proved that in one area there is a significant fall outside their control. These results can't be reasonably extrapolated across 600 regions - that's an unforgivably lazy assumption. To prove a city wide issue as the DCC insist, they'd have to prove the same issue in multiple areas (at least 10, probably more, but I'm not a statistician).


  • #129
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    antoobrien wrote: »
    What I heard in that interview can be roughly translated to

    It doesn't matter what you translate what to which, the independent expert in the field maintained that whatever is done, water needs to be piped up from the Shannon or the city will run out of water, leaks or no leaks, and then, so it should be.

    As I said, DCC need to fix the leaks and water needs to come from the Shannon when it floods.

    The anti water to Dublin guy was a joke.


  • #130
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    antoobrien wrote: »
    a) I don't believe any city council in this country when it comes to their claims that "it's not our fault". I can't recall vast amounts of money being pumped into the water system in Dublin, so I don't understand how it went from a major council problem to vast majority private users issue in a few short years. While I do agree there are issues with some private supplies the attitudes of the councils strikes me as more than a bit lazy (we've found 3 houses doing this it can't be our fault).

    b) I think you've missed my point (I do agree with metering of water usage, which granted I haven't stated and is irrelevant to my point) - it takes an unacceptably long time is most parts of the country to find a leak. In this regard both my experience of leaks in Galway & Dublin broadly similar. During the water crisis of winter 2009, the water was gone for a considerable time in Killester while mains leaks were stubbornly hard to find.

    Well a dual approach is obviously needed. Divide the city into multiple "Cells" with monitoring on water usage/leakage in the backhaul eg. the Corpo pipes. Tie this with data coming from the meters on private houses and you should have sufficient data to:
    • Identify that a certain "Cell" / "backhaul pipe" is suffering significant loss (water flow etc.)
    • Correlate this with data from meters on usage, or for example what houses are suffering shortage -- thus enabling pinpointing of problem within the "Cell"

    Of course it didn't help that there were people leaving their taps running 24/7 during the last cold spell. I would think metering would fairly quickly put an end to such bad practise.

    Either way the current water infrastructure in Dublin (Vatry/Pollaphuca) were designed before the 1940's I think even if they were to reduce water loss to 5% there would probably be still some need to find another source of water given the massive growth in population in Dublin Metro area.

    My own opinion is to tap the Shannon while it's in Winter flood. Every year we hear people complaining about flooding as well as calling for the "Shannon to be drained", no reason why it can't be drained by thirsty Dubs as oppose to the Atlantic.


  • #131
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    dubhthach wrote: »
    the massive growth in population in Dublin Metro area
    Which is unsustainable. Solve this problem (the real one btw) first by investing the money where it's needed more - the rest of the country. There are two benefits to Dublin: it lets the cluchies go home (which i'm told no self respecting dub will ever refuse ;) ) and relieves all the other problems caused in Dublin the by lobsided and massive over development of the area (congestion etc).
    dubhthach wrote: »
    Every year we hear people complaining about flooding as well as calling for the "Shannon to be drained"

    Ah hang on that's just ignorant of what causes the flooding in the Shannon basin, there are various pieces of legislation in place to stop normal dredging & clearing works from occurring. The winter floods in areas like Shannon & Gort (which doesn't have a massive river running through it, but still comes up with a big flood every few years) wouldn't be nearly as severe but for the environmental bureaucracy, which seems to be aimed at keeping tosses in jobs with more than a bit of making large tracts of the country inarable and uninhabitable on the side.


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  • #132
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Ah hang on that's just ignorant of what causes the flooding in the Shannon basin, there are various pieces of legislation in place to stop normal dredging & clearing works from occurring. The winter floods in areas like Shannon & Gort (which doesn't have a massive river running through it, but still comes up with a big flood every few years) wouldn't be nearly as severe but for the environmental bureaucracy, which seems to be aimed at keeping tosses in jobs with more than a bit of making large tracts of the country inarable and uninhabitable on the side.

    That's not my point tbh. I'm pointing out the contradiction on one side of "Drain the Shannon" versus "don't let Dublin have any Shannon water".

    In the case of the Shannon part of the issue is no doubt down to the ESB maintaining the River at certain heights in event of "Dry periods" of course given that Ardnacrusha provides all of less then 5% of their power generation this is quite an antiquated objective of theirs. One proposal I've heard is that the ESB should increase their release at Parteen into the "Old bed" of the Shannon. Currently it's at 10 tonnes/second. One proposal was to increase it to 15 tonnes. This would reduce the power generation at Ardnacrusha by about 10% as well as improve the ecology of the "old bed" by removing silting etc.

    As for Gort, the main issue in Galway is due to continual lack of investment in Arterial drainage. The last major works in Galway was probably the Clare river scheme in the 1950's! A prime example of haphazard work going on was dredging upstream of Craughwell which increased water flow. However nothing was done from Craughwell down to Kilcolgan. Result was massive flooding in 2009 around Craughwell which led to the M6 been open early to provide bypass for flooded N6 etc.


  • #133
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The NPWS and An Taisce in Dublin killed off arterial drainage many years ago. The councils are even afraid to dredge what they already drained just to maintain the channels.


  • #134
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The NPWS and An Taisce in Dublin killed off arterial drainage many years ago. The councils are even afraid to dredge what they already drained just to maintain the channels.

    Please Bob. They have their HQs in Dublin; the NPWS is run by various rustics and An Taisce by a bunch of loo-lahs, many not even Irish.

    I'd wager 95% of Dubs couldn't give a fiddlers phuk about arterial drainage; in fact 90% probably have'nt a clue what it is.

    The only reason I do is 'cos, basically, I know everything. :D

    ps I'd give that lassie in the bottom right a driving lesson for FREE! That's how generous I am.


  • #135
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    dubhthach wrote: »
    That's not my point tbh. I'm pointing out the contradiction on one side of "Drain the Shannon" versus "don't let Dublin have any Shannon water".

    Drain the Shannon is something that's been argued for years because the floods damage peoples livelyhoods and lives (i.e. forcing people to move because land is no longer viable), and if the Shannon was drained the perception that there was enough to support Dublin would disappear. The whole argument behind bringing water from the Shannon to Dublin is after all the floods (which shouldn't be happening in the first place)

    The don't let Dublin have any Shannon water" campaign as you put it comes from the rather arrogant attitude of the DCC - literally what people are hearing is: we can't be bothered trying to fix our leaks, so we'll take your water instead - in this regard the DCC are their own worst enemy.


  • #136
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    antoobrien wrote: »
    The whole argument behind bringing water from the Shannon to Dublin is after all the floods (which shouldn't be happening in the first place)

    The Shannon has always flooded, it's the reason why the Callows have always existed. My father who is from Athlone can easily tell you about annual floods in the 50's and 60's when he was a kid. To claim that it shouldn't be flooding is to take the attitude of "Corp of Engineers" when it comes to the Mississippi.


  • #137
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    im very worried about this. If all the water is diverted to eventually drain off into the Irish sea rather than the Atlantic, wont there be awful floods along the east coast and not enough sea at the west coast beaches etc?

    I think i have a solution though , could we pump all the waste water BACK into the Shannon to prevent this?


  • #138
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Gahhhhh, the Shannon extraction scheme is for the Pale just as much as Dublin. It is a backup for the entire Boyne and Liffey water basins as well as for riverlets in Wickila. Luckily for Wild Bill and his propoganda machine everybody hates Meath more than Dublin. :p


  • #139
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Found the following map showing both the Corrib and Shannon catchment area. As you can see the Corrib also includes Lough Mask as both are connected by underground rivers. Lough Mask drains via these into Lough Corrib and out to the sea at Galway.

    fig_5_3.jpg


  • #140
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    antoobrien wrote: »
    The don't let Dublin have any Shannon water" campaign as you put it comes from the rather arrogant attitude of the DCC - literally what people are hearing is: we can't be bothered trying to fix our leaks, so we'll take your water instead - in this regard the DCC are their own worst enemy.

    Ah, we are getting to the core now, it's about peoples attitude, not the bare facts, ie: Fook them, they aren't getting a drop of our water cause they have an attitude...

    Oh, and it's not "your" water.

    And if you think the Shannon flooding is a new thing you can try and blame on someone, you are mistaken. It's just a problem now that people want to and have built on the plains.


  • #141
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I don't know if the Dublin local authorities have something like this but surely if they're claiming wastage is still above 20% (prime time last week) they need to be doing something to identify where (out of 500m liters of water produced every day) approximately 100m liters of water are disappearing to every day.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic with that - the DCC attitude was arrogant in the extreme. Their entire argument was based on the premise that it's not economically viable to fix problems contributing to losing over 100 million liters of water every day. What I heard in that interview can be roughly translated to: We couldn't be bothered to try save up to 20% of the taxpayers money that we spend on our water services, but we will gladly spend hundreds of millions more of said taxpayers money to do the same job. It's no wonder businesses across the country are up in arms about the various rates, levies and taxes they have to pay with attitudes like that.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    The don't let Dublin have any Shannon water" campaign as you put it comes from the rather arrogant attitude of the DCC - literally what people are hearing is: we can't be bothered trying to fix our leaks, so we'll take your water instead - in this regard the DCC are their own worst enemy.
    You seem to be of the opinion that all DCC have to do is simply repair their leaking pipes and problem solved. Its not that easy. The biggest problem for Dublin is the lack of a centralised It is extremely expensive for DCC to replace pipes - large diameter pipes in heavily trafficed roads with minimal working space are expensive. Other councils can afford to replace more pipelines because installing pipes in the verge along a country road costs a fraction of what it costs to replace the same length of pipeline in Dublin. DCC has to get together several million for a project whereas other councils only need a couple of hundred thousand. The biggest problem for Dublin is that a lot of the tax revenue generated there goes to fund schemes elsewhere. If revenue raised in Dublin stayed there, DCC could replace a lot of pipes but then you would have a lot more to bitch about.

    Of course, regardless of leaks, the fact remains that Dublin still needs an alternative source of water as highlighted by the expert on last weeks Prime Time.


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  • #142
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Gahhhhh, the Shannon extraction scheme is for the Pale just as much as Dublin. It is a backup for the entire Boyne and Liffey water basins as well as for riverlets in Wickila. Luckily for Wild Bill and his propoganda machine everybody hates Meath more than Dublin. :p

    I'm disgusted you all hate Meath; after Dublin it is my favourite county (apart from Wicklow, Kildare, Westmeath, Carlow, Wexford and Kilkenny). And Laois and Offaly of course.

    We WANT your water and we are GOING TO GET IT. :pac::pac::pac:


  • #143
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Found the following map showing both the Corrib and Shannon catchment area. As you can see the Corrib also includes Lough Mask as both are connected by underground rivers. Lough Mask drains via these into Lough Corrib and out to the sea at Galway.

    fig_5_3.jpg

    Seems from this map the Shannon gets half it's water from Leinster anyway. Give it back! :D

    Given the tiny bit of the Shannon waste we want, this could be deemed a Water Repatriation Scheme.

    It's the GDA's water in the first place. If we block up all the feeder rivers and divert the water to a bog in Offaly, the Shannon will be a dessicated runt of a river.

    And yer flooding problems will be solved, even it yer terrible weather remains as it is! :D


  • #144
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Seems from this map the Shannon gets half it's water from Leinster anyway. Give it back! :D

    Given the tiny bit of the Shannon waste we want, this could be deemed a Water Repatriation Scheme.

    It's the GDA's water in the first place. If we block up all the feeder rivers and divert the water to a bog in Offaly, the Shannon will be a dessicated runt of a river.

    And yer flooding problems will be solved, even it yer terrible weather remains as it is! :D

    The Shannon is truely "inter-provincial" it drains parts of Ulster, Connacht, Leinster and Munster. Not to mention the former province of Miḋe. Of course tbh what is now called Meath used to be know as Brega, the part that was actually originally called Miḋe (meath) is basically modern "Westmeath" ;)


  • #145
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Maybe if the Dublin local authorities who got paid handsome development levies for each dwelling and business premesis they gave explicit permission to build during the boom had bothered their holes to build water treatment capacity and water supply infrastructure, maybe the scale of the problem would be reduced
    Each winter some public servant in a fulltime permanent pensionable(&probably well paid) job complains that people in Dublin are using more water than they can supply even though the authorities haven't increased the supply capacity in a long while

    I haven't seen any senior engineer or manager sacked for this, nor anyone blamed for the pisspoor service explaining where or when water supply will be cut off in the Lusk area

    The solution seems to be to tax the private sector to featherbed these incompetent gobsh1tes instead


  • #146
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Maybe if the Dublin local authorities who got paid handsome development levies for each dwelling and business premesis they gave explicit permission to build during the boom had bothered their holes to build water treatment capacity and water supply infrastructure, maybe the scale of the problem would be reduced
    Reduced but not eliminated. Dublin will need a new source of water regardless.

    And the Irish Economy forum is the designated forum for mindless public sector bashing, perhaps you would feel more at home there.


  • #147
    johnk1960
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭johnk1960


    whatever the rights and wrongs of it, if hydraulic fracking for gas goes ahead in north leitrim, i doubt dublin will want shannon water


  • #148
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Hydraulic fracking produces gas from pressurised water, plenty of Gas in Dublin :)

    Chemical fracking is another issue altogether but that has not been licenced in Leitrim.


  • #149
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    I'm all for Hydraulic fracking.

    It's something I've dreamed of since I was knee high to a grasshopper :)


  • #150
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Of course, regardless of leaks, the fact remains that Dublin still needs an alternative source of water as highlighted by the expert on last weeks Prime Time.

    I did some checking on Galway - consumption is about 24m liters each day (given the estimated 50% unaccounted for out of production of 48m:mad: and if you believe their propaganda they have extra capacity at 24m).

    By my figures Dublin need 384m liters of water each day based on a similar consumption pattern (based on a population of 75k which is low as this includes areas of the county, but they're not stated so we can't put figures on it) as Galway. DCC estimates 500m liters are used every day. IIRC production is somewhere between 525m & 575m liters.

    The question that the rest of the country has is: What the f**k are you doing with somewhere between 115m and 200m liters of water every day?


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  • #151
    johnk1960
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭johnk1960


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    I'm all for Hydraulic fracking.

    It's something I've dreamed of since I was knee high to a grasshopper :)

    Frack you Wild Bill, you live in the city
    We will do everything to stop this rape of the land
    Cracking the rocks under our feet? Great idea! Not!
    Still, I expect this is the response you hoped for!


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