EU demands ALL Internet records to be stored for a year in pre Lisbon Orwellian move.

King Mob · 06-04-2009 4:23pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Of course they're not there... the Lisbon treaty is about HOW Europe WILL be governed... it doesn't give much governance to our own elected government but rather, it leaves Ireland with a tiny vote into how things are going to be done and it takes the decision making even further away from the people... so anything they decide to do, well we're going to have much less of a say in it and our constitution will have no say in it.

I don't like the changes it is suggesting... it doesn't mean that Ireland WILL be in the EU army or that abortions will become legal or that kids can be charged with crimes... BUT we've all seen how France and Germany are becoming more united recently and how they will stand strongly together on anything... it's going to turn into Eurovision style voting... and we'll be in the position where our only friends are the UK

And where exactly is that in the treaty is this?

Heineken Helen · 06-04-2009 4:27pm

King Mob wrote: »

And where exactly is that in the treaty is this?

Seriously??? Have you read it?

It's what the treaty is ABOUT! :rolleyes:

humanji · 06-04-2009 5:05pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Of course they're not there... the Lisbon treaty is about HOW Europe WILL be governed... it doesn't give much governance to our own elected government but rather, it leaves Ireland with a tiny vote into how things are going to be done and it takes the decision making even further away from the people...

Eh, that's democracy. The majority rules. Luckily, Lisbon puts in measure to make sure that the voices of small countries don't get drowned out by the others.

Heineken Helen wrote: »

so anything they decide to do, well we're going to have much less of a say in it and our constitution will have no say in it.

Or constitution will always have precedence.

Heineken Helen · 06-04-2009 7:59pm

humanji wrote: »

Eh, that's democracy. The majority rules. Luckily, Lisbon puts in measure to make sure that the voices of small countries don't get drowned out by the others.

Or constitution will always have precedence.

what about the eurovision style voting I mentioned? Do you really think that won't happen and that we won't be left on the outside entirely. We've alienated ourselves from Europe... it's doubtful even some of the smaller countries would stick by us.

I'd rather OUR majority rule us than a foreign majority

Where does it say the constitution will always have precedence?

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 8:07pm

Anyone else notice how Ct'ers tend to be xenophobic, closet-Nazi's?

Heineken Helen · 06-04-2009 8:25pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Anyone else notice how Ct'ers tend to be xenophobic, closet-Nazi's?

If you're talking about me, you better say where you're coming from!

Cos I don't want to be ruled by Germany I'm a closet nazi???

ummm... don't you see the contradictions?

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 8:39pm

I think that the word Nazi has grown out of it's German roots, don't you think?

I dunno, it's just the whole anti-Jew, xenophobic, nationalist gig. It reminds me of Nazi's.

espinolman · 06-04-2009 8:50pm

humanji wrote: »

Eh, that's democracy. The majority rules. Luckily, Lisbon puts in measure to make sure that the voices of small countries don't get drowned out by the others.

Ireland is not a small country .

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 9:12pm

espinolman wrote: »

Ireland is not a small country .

By what definition?

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 9:24pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Where does it say the constitution will always have precedence?

I thought you said you read it

New Article 29.4.11:

No provision of this Constitution (the treaty) invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of membership of the European Union referred to in subsection 10 of this section, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State.

new Article 29.4.13:

The State may exercise the option to secure that the Protocol on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on the European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (formerly known as the Treaty establishing the European Community) shall, in whole or in part, cease to apply to the State, but any such exercise shall be subject to the prior approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas.

1, says, that any measure adopted by the EU that contravenes Irish state law, or our constitution is not legally binding. Our constitution and our laws come first.

2. We can't be legally obliged to take part in any security, freedom and justice measures (and those are immensely broad and wide reaching terms) by the EU without approval of both houses of our the Oireachtas.

Heineken Helen · 06-04-2009 9:32pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I think that the word Nazi has grown out of it's German roots, don't you think?

I dunno, it's just the whole anti-Jew, xenophobic, nationalist gig. It reminds me of Nazi's.

Huh? Where did I say anything about Jewish people????

Heineken Helen · 06-04-2009 9:35pm

Diogenes wrote: »

I thought you said you read it

New Article 29.4.11:

new Article 29.4.13:

1, says, that any measure adopted by the EU that contravenes Irish state law, or our constitution is not legally binding. Our constitution and our laws come first.

2. We can't be legally obliged to take part in any security, freedom and justice measures (and those are immensely broad and wide reaching terms) by the EU without approval of both houses of our the Oireachtas.

and yes, we've all seen how other countries won't pull together to bully a lone state to agree to their terms.:rolleyes:

I simply have zero faith in the system they are suggesting.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 9:40pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Huh? Where did I say anything about Jewish people????

Ah, it wasn't so much directed at you. More through my experience with CT'ers.

meglome · 06-04-2009 9:44pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ah, it wasn't so much directed at you. More through my experience with CT'ers.

Now now they are Zionists who just so happen to be Jewish.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 9:47pm

meglome wrote: »

Now now they are Zionists who just so happen to be Jewish.

Yes... yes...

That's what we want them to think...

Capt'n Midnight · 06-04-2009 10:04pm

EU demands ALL Internet records to be stored for a year in pre Lisbon Orwellian move.

Good for them.

In Ireland the current data retention period is THREE years.

Nice to see the EU fighting for our privacy.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/4BABB2D3-63DD-4C7B-87F3-71E75E5A7E11/0/FOI_92_Records.PDF

Heineken Helen · 06-04-2009 10:06pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ah, it wasn't so much directed at you. More through my experience with CT'ers.

So what's it got to do with this thread? I didn't see ANY mention of Jews til you brought it up. Hoping somebody will take the bait?;)

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 10:12pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

So what's it got to do with this thread? I didn't see ANY mention of Jews til you brought it up. Hoping somebody will take the bait?;)

Meh, just a notion that dawned on me that didn't warrant its own thread. Feel free to suggest somewhere to bring it up.

meglome · 06-04-2009 10:32pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Yes... yes...

That's what we want them to think...

All us shills, Zionists, Disinfo agents, sceptics should stick together

6th · 06-04-2009 10:48pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Anyone else notice how Ct'ers tend to be xenophobic, closet-Nazi's?

Flamed Diving banned for 1 week.

Diogenes I'm infracting you for thanking a post which breaks the charter.

Run_to_da_hills · 06-04-2009 11:13pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

EU demands ALL Internet records to be stored for a year in pre Lisbon Orwellian move.

Good for them.

In Ireland the current data retention period is THREE years.

Nice to see the EU fighting for our privacy.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/4BABB2D3-63DD-4C7B-87F3-71E75E5A7E11/0/FOI_92_Records.PDF

I already explained this.

The 3 Year Irish retention of data by service providers is less invasive than retaining data by this new EU directive.

The Irish law requires a search warrent on the grounds of suspicion of criminal activity while the EU directive stores data in an independant database and can be accessed by departments without a warrent..

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 11:13pm

Ah so to be clear;

You first said;

You wrote:

Where does it say the constitution will always have precedence?

And when it's pointed out to you, that the Irish constitution will have precedence, according to the Lisbon Treaty

Heineken Helen wrote: »

and yes, we've all seen how other countries won't pull together to bully a lone state to agree to their terms.:rolleyes:

I simply have zero faith in the system they are suggesting.

You asked for evidence that the EU constitution wouldn't supercede the Irish constitution, you're not saying that any evidence doesn't matter.

Purple Gorilla · 06-04-2009 11:39pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Of course they're not there... the Lisbon treaty is about HOW Europe WILL be governed... it doesn't give much governance to our own elected government but rather, it leaves Ireland with a tiny vote into how things are going to be done and it takes the decision making even further away from the people... so anything they decide to do, well we're going to have much less of a say in it and our constitution will have no say in it.

I don't like the changes it is suggesting... it doesn't mean that Ireland WILL be in the EU army or that abortions will become legal or that kids can be charged with crimes... BUT we've all seen how France and Germany are becoming more united recently and how they will stand strongly together on anything... it's going to turn into Eurovision style voting... and we'll be in the position where our only friends are the UK

Not every vote is by Qualified Majority Voting ya know. Many important areas require a unanimous vote (Tax, Social Policy, Defence, Foreign Policy, Treaty Revision etc.)..we alread have opt outs in the areas of secuity, freedom and justice so France and Germany ganging up isn't a problem in those areas...

Are you sure you read the treaty? The provisions put in place in the treaty are there to stop the bigger countries just passing any law they want. The revised Qualified Majority Voting (the one where France and Germany could gang up) is heavily in favour of smaller countries. Each country's voting weight is based on their population and with the Lisbon Treaty, the EU is giving us a voting weight way above our population size so the smaller countries cannot be bullied.
On top of that, there is certain criteria to pass legislation with QMV:

To pass legislation: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met

To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal

So in that case, it doesn't matter how big France or Germany is..if 4 countries are against it then it won't be passed. It also means that Germany, France and the UK/ Italy/ Poland/ Spain can't just pass legislation on their own because while they do represent over 65% of the EU Population, they do not represent over 55% of all voting countries.

Lastly, to chime in on what you said- "It takes the decision making even further away from the people".. That's pretty wrong. The Lisbon Treaty introduces the Citizens Initiative where anybody in Europe can petition the EU...once they get 1 million signatures (1/500th of the EU population), the EU will be forced to view the case and act on it.

Heineken Helen · 07-04-2009 12:19am

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Not every vote is by Qualified Majority Voting ya know. Many important areas require a unanimous vote (Tax, Social Policy, Defence, Foreign Policy, Treaty Revision etc.)..we alread have opt outs in the areas of secuity, freedom and justice so France and Germany ganging up isn't a problem in those areas...

Are you sure you read the treaty? The provisions put in place in the treaty are there to stop the bigger countries just passing any law they want. The revised Qualified Majority Voting (the one where France and Germany could gang up) is heavily in favour of smaller countries. Each country's voting weight is based on their population and with the Lisbon Treaty, the EU is giving us a voting weight way above our population size so the smaller countries cannot be bullied.
On top of that, there is certain criteria to pass legislation with QMV:

To pass legislation: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met

To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal

So in that case, it doesn't matter how big France or Germany is..if 4 countries are against it then it won't be passed. It also means that Germany, France and the UK/ Italy/ Poland/ Spain can't just pass legislation on their own because while they do represent over 65% of the EU Population, they do not represent over 55% of all voting countries.

Lastly, to chime in on what you said- "It takes the decision making even further away from the people".. That's pretty wrong. The Lisbon Treaty introduces the Citizens Initiative where anybody in Europe can petition the EU...once they get 1 million signatures (1/500th of the EU population), the EU will be forced to view the case and act on it.

I certainly welcome the citizens initiative and think any democracy should have one... however, it doesn't force the EU to ACT on it... it forces them to simply view the case... no more!

I do understand how the voting works... you also understand that a united France/Germany have HUGE influence over other european countries? There will be back scratching... I'll vote with you on this one if you vote with me on that one.

I just think the way the voting has already taken place is so underhanded... there was NO democracy in order to create this 'democracy'. Many countries voted against the popular opinion in their own country.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-04-2009 1:01am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The 3 Year Irish retention of data by service providers is less invasive than retaining data by this new EU directive.

*sigh* because of echelon all our internet access that goes via the UK or US is recorded forever, and since a lot of our ISP aren't Irish that's most of the data.

This is just a rubber stamp on a small subset of the data that is actually stored.

Run_to_da_hills · 07-04-2009 1:46am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

*sigh* because of echelon all our internet access that goes via the UK or US is recorded forever, and since a lot of our ISP aren't Irish that's most of the data.

This is just a rubber stamp on a small subset of the data that is actually stored.

You being familiar wirth IT, this system will operate using "search robots" that will automatically sift through buzz words used by individuals in social networking sites, emails, text messages, blogs, VOIP phone conversations etc

Anything suspect will draw the attention to the authorities, "search robots" have been used by the feds for years.

meglome · 07-04-2009 2:11am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You being familiar wirth IT, this system will operate using "search robots" that will automatically sift through buzz words used by individuals in social networking sites, emails, text messages, blogs, VOIP phone conversations etc

Anything suspect will draw the attention to the authorities, "search robots" have been used by the feds for years.

My god you mean the internet isn't anonymous. I'd better hide my sheeple porn.

:rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight · 07-04-2009 2:26am

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

You being familiar wirth IT, this system will operate using "search robots" that will automatically sift through buzz words used by individuals in social networking sites, emails, text messages, blogs, VOIP phone conversations etc

Anything suspect will draw the attention to the authorities, "search robots" have been used by the feds for years.

have you priced terrabyte drives recently , they can store EVERYTHING no need to pick and choose.

in the past voice recognition software was used to record selected voice calls based on trigger keywords. but data storage is so cheap they can do it all

realismpol · 07-04-2009 3:13am

yawn...another overhyped article..

Do you ever notice with your conspiracy theories that none of it actually ever threatens you? How you always seem to be lacking that killer 'smoking gun' piece of evidence you need to convince people. You always seem to be posting about impending doom that never materialises despite the dire warnings and exaggerated tonality of the langauge you use. Wonder why that is eh?

Let us take time to examine the posts you made over a period of time warning of impending doom and 'nazis at your door ready to drag you away to camps once their evil plans come to fruition' None of it ever threatens your existance does it? Have they come to your door yet despite the fact your mouthing off on the internet? And one would think if you had found out some major big secret plan the so called nwo would have popped you off ages ago instead of letting your sprout at will. But i guess thats part of their plan too eh. Yes funny that how every argument and counter argument becomes all part of the 'plan' to those suffering from what is commonly known as paranoid schizophrenia. The glass half full quote comes to mind.

Also its funny how the evil plan seems to never have a defined endpoint or when an end point is commonly believed to be approaching then passes without fruition the conspiracy theory community make up another excuse as to why this didn't happen create another endpoint and the circle of doom continues. 1999, 2001, 2010, 2012. Each passes nothing happens and the kooks make up a new one based on some ancient half finished scroll. You do remember back in the late 1970's when credit cards came out that was the final signal of the end point. Mark of the beast. Yes of course it was.......

Yes thats right they waited all this time to carry out these plans over what according to freemasons 150 years. They have chemical, biological weapons and all sorts of superbugs and other such devices which can easily kill large numbers of people without their knowledge but no they want to do it over a period of time so 'nobody will notice'. Its satan with a conscious. And of course also its very funny that yes they've been around for hundreds of years yet they can't seme to sort out how to join together despite being in power for so long. You do realise back in the 17th century they actually burnt people at the stake because they thought they were witches or vampires. No doubt some of your very distant relations were nearby screaming 'vampires and witches exist' i have proof! lets burn them at the stake before they kill us all!!

I salute you internet hero's who have figured out the truth and are trying to alert others of the impending danger. By the way you are of course aware that all internet communications have been monitored over 15 years by various intelligence organisations. It was in use even before 9/11. This latest story is just europe coming out and telling the public what its been doing for years and successfully catching criminals. pedophiles and terrorists with. The data that is to be monitored is emails with to and from addresses. You don't think they are going to sift through some guys hours of porn to 'get him and get him good'. Even with analytical software programs and data mining this would be useless. The system is always open to abuse. Thats human nature. That doesn't mean the intended goal of it is what you kooks think it is. Every time you hear a piece of news you always approach it from the aspect of knowing how it fits into your fantasy beliefs. Go and ask the police how it helps them. Actually just go out and meet other people....lmao..

I don't know whats funnier the fact you actually listen to alex jones and believe that loon or that you think this stuff is real. But maybe he's not such a loon afterall, you do realise alex jones spends half his time advertising on his radio program and he needs listeners....without listeners no revenue...creating outlandish seemingly real scenarios creates interest amongst listeners....hmmm my god im begining to see a conspiracy here quick quick get the word out before its too late!!

Remember Just because you see a dog crossing a road towards you doesn't mean he is coming to bite your leg off and feed on your insides. When you fall down the stairs do you blame the nwo? Damn them dastardly cowards, i heard they design stairs in such a way that it will create you to fall thus thining out the human population through stair related accidents. Look i have the designs from the corporation that built it. Knew it was real.....

Run_to_da_hills · 07-04-2009 6:54am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

have you priced terabyte drives recently , they can store EVERYTHING no need to pick and choose.

in the past voice recognition software was used to record selected voice calls based on trigger keywords. but data storage is so cheap they can do it all

Exactly, space is cheap, the reason why all this data can be stored by the EU authorities on their own database rather than by the service providers which is the current Irish legislation.

All the text messages sent in Ireland in one year would fit on an average size hdd. All information, IP addresses, correspondence, viewing records etc on UTube since it began fitted on just 12TB of space, that would reatail for about e700 to store.

EU demands ALL Internet records to be stored for a year in pre Lisbon Orwellian move.

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