Seanad Reform

Brussels Sprout · 29-03-2015 11:51pm #1

Two years ago the Referendum on the 32nd Amendment to the Constitution failed. A week before polling day in a poll conducted by the Irish Times the majority reason given by prospective "No" voters was so as to keep a check on the powers of the Dáil.

Under its current guise it doesn't do this. The entire election process for it is bewildering and undemocratic and the fact that the Taoiseach gets 11 of the 60 seats to choose themselves almost guarantees that the government of the day will have a majority. As has been stated many times in the past what we have in effect is a rubber stamp upper house that serves no real purpose.

Given that the voters chose to retain the Seanad should we have a democratically elected upper house in the same way that the US has?

If so should they be elected at the same time as the Dáil or at a different time in the election cycle?

Would there be a danger in having a strong upper house which may not reflect the makeup of the lower house, that we'd end up in political gridlock as has been common in the US in recent years?

Finally, how would something like this even come about? Would there be some kind of convention with experts in specific relevant areas (as well as buy in from all the major parties) needed to draw up plans and rules for a new election process and then a straight yes or no vote?

Will this ever actually happen or will we still be talking about this in 30 years time while failed politicians continue to waffle in an empty chamber?

johnnyskeleton · 30-03-2015 12:06am

In an ideal world it wouldnt just be a dail lite based on a secondary election (basically the people who didnt get dail seats woulf run as senators a month later. In my view, there would be no greater amount of scrutiny in this scenario.

Instead, each senator would be elected as a representative/expert in an area. The IMO could elect someone from its members, IBEC, the Unions, lawyers, ACCA, keep the academic seats, garda representatives, journalists, Peter McVerry, ethnic minority group leaders etc. Each can give input into different areas etc so that the doctors havw a say on medical laws, the gardai on new crimes, lawyers on increased garda powers etc.

Never gonna happen - apart from anything else people would balk at the idea of a talking shop for supposed elites - but it would be interesting to see such a thing come into force.

View · 30-03-2015 12:27am

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Will this ever actually happen or will we still be talking about this in 30 years time while failed politicians continue to waffle in an empty chamber?

No it won't happen and the failed politicians will still be there in 30 years time.

Given that the electorate rejected the simplest reform of the system possible - outright abolishment - no politician will rush to attempt any form of complex nuanced reform of the Seanad since it would be almost guaranteed to fail when vested interests pop up to criticise the proposed reform.

touts · 31-03-2015 8:08am

40 years ago the people voted to give all third level graduates votes in senate elections. Since then the senators of NUI and Trinity have successfully blocked every attempt to implement that decision.

If we couldn't reform 6 senators what do you think are the chances of reforming 60 of them.

johnnyskeleton · 31-03-2015 2:18pm

touts wrote: »

40 years ago the people voted to give all third level graduates votes in senate elections. Since then the senators of NUI and Trinity have successfully blocked every attempt to implement that decision.

If we couldn't reform 6 senators what do you think are the chances of reforming 60 of them.

Forgive my ignorance, but what vote was this? I was aware that there was a plan to do so in 2013:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/all-college-graduates-to-get-vote-in-seanad-elections-1.1607342

What sort of vote was it?

touts · 31-03-2015 2:23pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, but what vote was this? I was aware that there was a plan to do so in 2013:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/all-college-graduates-to-get-vote-in-seanad-elections-1.1607342

What sort of vote was it?

7th amendment to the constitution passed in 1979 with over 90% in favour to extend the franchise to all third level graduates not just Trinity and NUI. Successive governments (most of whose members will have gone to either NUI or Trinity) have went "To hell with that" ever since. And little more than a year to go to the next election it looks like this government will likewise deny hundreds of thousands of people their constitutional right to vote.

PopePalpatine · 31-03-2015 2:59pm

I can't believe no-one's taken the government to the Supreme Court over that.

expectationlost · 31-03-2015 4:59pm

they initiated the process to extend vote but its stalled http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/News/MainBody,35475,en.htm

http://environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/PublicConsultations/SeanadSubmissions/ Unis arn't happy with the merging of constituencies

Galwayguy35 · 06-04-2015 10:38pm

It will never be reformed, after the next election we will have exactly the same set up, a cushy number for TD's who lost their seats.

Everyone who voted to keep it must be very happy with themselves.

nesf · 07-04-2015 1:26pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I can't believe no-one's taken the government to the Supreme Court over that.

On what grounds? All the People did was give the Irish Government the option to extend the franchise if they wanted to. They did not vote to replace the old system.

It was clever wording by FF. Kicks the can down the road to future Governments to deal with while still being able to say they made changes.

micosoft · 07-04-2015 11:37pm

We simply don't need a second house. We have plenty of checks in our system having both a President and Supreme Court. Having a second house suits a Federal state. Ireland simply has no reason to do this. Abolishing was a reform that got derailed at the last minute by an intervention by a couple of lawyers. Perhaps it's like a European Treaty - second time is the trick. With perhaps additional powers for the President and Supreme Court (can't imagine what they could be TBH) to satisfy the doom mongers.

hfallada · 08-04-2015 12:20am

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I can't believe no-one's taken the government to the Supreme Court over that.

Well how many court cases have been taken to get the Government to implement Abortion? And yet there is no real solid Abortion laws in place. There is a majority of the population wanting a basic form of abortion, but there is still none in place.

I dont think you will find a court case for something like this which isnt a high priority for most people.

edward2222 · 08-04-2015 4:14am

View wrote: »

No it won't happen and the failed politicians will still be there in 30 years time.

Given that the electorate rejected the simplest reform of the system possible - outright abolishment - no politician will rush to attempt any form of complex nuanced reform of the Seanad since it would be almost guaranteed to fail when vested interests pop up to criticise the proposed reform.

Hmmm I think it will, 30years is a long time, many things will happen
in that time range... hhhmmmm

For Reals · 08-04-2015 4:28pm

I think the Seanad should go. It's undemocratic and it being some kind of watchdog fails when we have Senators bashing on about ice cream trucks in their neighborhood being too loud or Seagulls losing the run of themselves.
I've had my fill of the privileged 'chosen ones' literally lording it over democratically elected people.
With low voter turn out there will most likely always be a large number of the public discontented with the elected politicians of the day and the civil war parties are a cancer on society, but the house or Lords Seanad is no solution.
I've met Senators, there's an air of privilege about them. They never strike as the 'just happy to help' type.

Many 'no' voters did so in a misguided attempt to spite Kenny. He thought it was a safe one to get fully behind but of course, blew it.

expectationlost · 11-04-2015 6:11pm

Public may get vote in Seanad Elections http://www.herald.ie/news/public-may-get-vote-in-seanad-elections-31133836.html how would councillors feel about giving up this power?

micosoft · 13-04-2015 1:33pm

"Reforms" out today.

Not a fan of this at all. The best reform was abolishing it. We simply don't need a second chamber in a tiny country like this. The direct suffrage etc looks like a cranks charter. Internet voting can never be made secure in an anonymous electoral system [that is accessible to all].

My biggest issue is what is the point? The draft proposals for "distinct powers" seem weak and/or overlap with the Dail and other agencies.

- North-South Ministerial Council proposals. - so SF will be looking to vote early and often. This will be unhelpful with our relations with the other community up there.

Secondary legislation of the EU - So our MEP's have less to do?

Consult with relevant bodies prior to and during second stage debates on legislation. - What?

Investigate and report on matters of public policy interest. - We have Dail Committees to this!

Consider reports from regulators and other statutory inspectors. - Regulate the regulators? Who regulates the Shannon...

I actually think the above is profoundly undemocratic as it complicates and makes increasingly opaque who is actually responsible for what in this state. I'd simply ask the question, if there was no Seanad, would we invent one today? I think most people would say no....

expectationlost · 13-04-2015 4:07pm

report http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/News/Government_Press_Releases/Working_Group_on_Seanad_Reform.html 83 pages will it be eve implemented?
kenny http://www.merrionstreet.ie//en/News-Room/News/Statement_by_the_Taoiseach_Mr_Enda_Kenny_TD_on_the_Report_of_the_Working_Group_on_Seanad_Reform.html
submissions
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/work_of_the_department/protocol/working_group_on_seanad_reform/seanad_reform_.html

oscarBravo · 13-04-2015 5:12pm

micosoft wrote: »

Internet voting can never be made secure in an anonymous electoral system [that is accessible to all].

I'll read the report to see what's proposed, but I agree with this. Online voter registration: maybe, let's see how it's implemented. Electronic sending of voting papers: hm, I can think of some interesting attacks on the integrity of the ballot.

Online voting: hell. No.

expectationlost · 13-04-2015 9:03pm

expectationlost wrote: »

they initiated the process to extend vote but its stalled http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/News/MainBody,35475,en.htm

http://environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/PublicConsultations/SeanadSubmissions/ Unis arn't happy with the merging of constituencies

the most recent word on the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-02-19a.560&s=speaker:287#g562.r from the minister

expectationlost · 14-04-2015 3:27am

no mention of having dail and seanad elections same day

A general election for Seanad Éireann shall take place not later than ninety days after a dissolution of Dáil Éireann.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/index.html#article18

constitutional possible?

how would you actually enforce if you could.

nomination still done via nominating bodies which have almost entirely nominated party political people (because of who voted?)

expectationlost · 14-04-2015 10:46pm

so previous TDs, Senators and Councillors could vote on each panel, 5 votes up to 6 if a graduate of NUI/TCD too.

Each elector has only one vote in respect of each panel even if he or she is qualified in more than one respect. The electorate numbers approximately 1,000.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Voting/FileDownLoad,3724,en.pdf

Working Group suggest this ends with only one vote across all 6 panels for everyone.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Work_Of_The_Department/Protocol/Working_Group_on_Seanad_Reform/FINAL_Seanad_Reform_web_version.pdf

INDIRECT ELECTION:
Nomination and Seats
The Working Group recommends thirteen Seanad members will be elected by an electoral college comprising current Oireachtas members and current Local Authority members. This is referred to as the Indirect process.
Elected members of the Oireachtas and elected members of Local Authorities will register on the panel of their choice with the proviso that each panel have no less than 18% and no more than 22% of the eligible voters in a manner prescribed in the legislation

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Work_Of_The_Department/Protocol/Working_Group_on_Seanad_Reform/FINAL_Seanad_Reform_web_version.pdf page 30

in what legislation?

The detailed registration arrangements for the different categories are matters to be decided by the Interim Implementation Body as referenced in Part 6 of this Report.

oh

David Farrell also brought up the issue of possible imbalance in the public vote, in which panel they decide to register for. http://politicalreform.ie/2015/04/13/could-the-call-for-radical-seanad-reform-re-ignite-debate-over-oireachtas-reform/

Seanad Reform

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