Where are all the great leaders in Ireland?

Baggy Trousers · 11-03-2015 11:11pm #1

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics and our public service?
Where are the strong, inspirational leaders you would be proud of? We did have them in the past.

Enda Kenny? Huge disappointment as Taoiseach.
Gerry Adams? Untrustworthy, huge liability.
Micheal Martin? Not even popular in FF. Bad health minister who grabbed all the credit for smoking ban but didn't achieve much else.
Gilmore/Burton? Forget about it. Irrelevant at best. All talk.
Patrick Honohan? Flip flopping embarrassingly in banking commission
John Tierney? Shocking track record continuing in Irish Water
Martin Callinan? Spineless Garda commissioner, resigned eventually.

Where are all the great leaders?

Manach · 11-03-2015 11:22pm

" ... with O'Leary in the grave".

View · 11-03-2015 11:51pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics and our public service?
Where are the strong, inspirational leaders you would be proud of? We did have them in the past.

Why on eatth do you want a "great leader"?

We are a multi-party democracy with a variety of political opinions. We do not need any "great leader" to ride rough-shod over the views of all and sundry that disagree with them..

Baggy Trousers · 11-03-2015 11:54pm

View wrote: »

Why on eatth do you want a "great leader"?

We are a multi-party democracy with a variety of political opinions. We do not need any "great leader" to ride rough-shod over the views of all and sundry that disagree with them..

That's not the definition of a great leader. You must have a great manager/boss.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyaprive/2012/12/19/top-10-qualities-that-make-a-great-leader/

Cookie_Monster · 12-03-2015 12:46am

Those type of people are not stupid enough to go into politics in the first place and are more than likely running or high up in various major multi-national companies around the world

IrishTrajan · 12-03-2015 12:57am

View wrote: »

Why on eatth do you want a "great leader"?

We are a multi-party democracy with a variety of political opinions. We do not need any "great leader" to ride rough-shod over the views of all and sundry that disagree with them..

Because I'd rather having one great leader, than having a hundred mediocre leaders. Ireland needs something to whip it out of the apathy the current political system finds itself in, and a charismatic, nationalist (doing what is best for the country, not what's best for the handful of people in their constituency) leader is the best contender.

Ireland needs a good kick up the arse, we're in top 15 for GDP per capita (PPP), so we should start acting with a bit of cop on and stop playing tribal politics. It's about time Ireland gets out of the kiddie pool, puts on its big boy pants, and actually sets about bettering itself, rather than waiting for corrupt or moronic people in the Dáil to do something.

Also, having a "great" leader, doesn't necessitate a single party State. David Cameron, despite his party's failings, is quite a great leader. Yes, he's messed up a lot, but he knows how to play the political game in the UK, and he knows how to project charisma on the world stage.

C14N · 12-03-2015 10:05am

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics and our public service?
Where are the strong, inspirational leaders you would be proud of? We did have them in the past.

Enda Kenny? Huge disappointment as Taoiseach.
Gerry Adams? Untrustworthy, huge liability.
Micheal Martin? Not even popular in FF. Bad health minister who grabbed all the credit for smoking ban but didn't achieve much else.
Gilmore/Burton? Forget about it. Irrelevant at best. All talk.
Patrick Honohan? Flip flopping embarrassingly in banking commission
John Tierney? Shocking track record continuing in Irish Water
Martin Callinan? Spineless Garda commissioner, resigned eventually.

Where are all the great leaders?

Probably in the private sector where they can make as much money as they want and stay out of the limelight. If I was the kind of person with charisma and leadership skills, I probably wouldn't want to waste them trying appease an insatiable rabble who will hate you no matter what you do.

You go work as an executive at some big company and you don't have half the country on your back trying to get you fired or complaining because you make more money than them or because you had a business meeting at an expensive restaurant. Sounds much nicer really.

BoJack Horseman · 12-03-2015 10:18am

IrishTrajan wrote: »

David Cameron, despite his party's failings, is quite a great leader. Yes, he's messed up a lot, but he knows how to play the political game in the UK, and he knows how to project charisma on the world stage.

Dafuq he is!

Dave™ is a head to toe political coward.
The only time he can project 'leadership' is when shouting abuse, consequence free at PMQs.

There is no political decision he won't kick into the long grass.

I agree that aching for a strong man leader type carries more risk than reward.

In democracies with a sceptical electorate, competence is the main requirement for success.

Aching for a putin-type strong man helps no one.

Baggy Trousers · 12-03-2015 10:28am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I agree that aching for a strong man leader type carries more risk than reward.

In democracies with a sceptical electorate, competence is the main requirement for success.

Aching for a putin-type strong man helps no one.

I never asked where is the one strong man leader that we need. I asked where are the strong leaders anywhere in our political system or public service. There is little evidence of any strong leadership that you might be proud of or that you might like to work for.

Godge · 12-03-2015 7:36pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics and our public service?
Where are the strong, inspirational leaders you would be proud of? We did have them in the past.

Enda Kenny? Huge disappointment as Taoiseach.
Gerry Adams? Untrustworthy, huge liability.
Micheal Martin? Not even popular in FF. Bad health minister who grabbed all the credit for smoking ban but didn't achieve much else.
Gilmore/Burton? Forget about it. Irrelevant at best. All talk.
Patrick Honohan? Flip flopping embarrassingly in banking commission
John Tierney? Shocking track record continuing in Irish Water
Martin Callinan? Spineless Garda commissioner, resigned eventually.

Where are all the great leaders?

A couple of simple answers, firstly, the rewards in the Irish private sector are such that you would be mad to become a politician or even madder to become CEO of an Irish state body.

Secondly, the public nastiness is such that anyone in public life who makes a decision is hit hard and low and unfairly by criticism from vested groups, opposition politicians, serial protestors and the begrudging hurlers on the ditch. The decision doesn't even have to bad anymore, there is always someone to criticise.

Baggy Trousers · 13-03-2015 1:07am

Godge wrote: »

A couple of simple answers, firstly, the rewards in the Irish private sector are such that you would be mad to become a politician or even madder to become CEO of an Irish state body.

Secondly, the public nastiness is such that anyone in public life who makes a decision is hit hard and low and unfairly by criticism from vested groups, opposition politicians, serial protestors and the begrudging hurlers on the ditch. The decision doesn't even have to bad anymore, there is always someone to criticise.

That's just bluffing Godge and you know it.

We've had great leaders of men in the past. We just seem to be devoid of them today and for the past decade or more.
There is promise among the younger ranks of TDs and councillors, time will tell.
Not sure the public service is producing many great leaders though. It seems to be a resting place for poor management.

ZeroThreat · 13-03-2015 1:17am

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Because I'd rather having one great leader, than having a hundred mediocre leaders. Ireland needs something to whip it out of the apathy the current political system finds itself in, and a charismatic, nationalist (doing what is best for the country, not what's best for the handful of people in their constituency) leader is the best contender.

Ireland needs a good kick up the arse, we're in top 15 for GDP per capita (PPP), so we should start acting with a bit of cop on and stop playing tribal politics. It's about time Ireland gets out of the kiddie pool, puts on its big boy pants, and actually sets about bettering itself, rather than waiting for corrupt or moronic people in the Dáil to do something.

Also, having a "great" leader, doesn't necessitate a single party State. David Cameron, despite his party's failings, is quite a great leader. Yes, he's messed up a lot, but he knows how to play the political game in the UK, and he knows how to project charisma on the world stage.

I hope you were being sarcastic here. Cameron is basically an English version of Enda Kenny, the only difference being that he doesn't drop his cacks and bend over at every opportunity to accommodate Merkel's big black 12" strap on up his bunghole.......

Calina · 14-03-2015 3:10pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics and our public service?
Where are the strong, inspirational leaders you would be proud of? We did have them in the past.

In this country they get ignored in favour of a favoured soundbite.

Let me give you one name.

Morgan Kelly.

Calina · 14-03-2015 3:13pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

David Cameron, despite his party's failings, is quite a great leader. Yes, he's messed up a lot, but he knows how to play the political game in the UK, and he knows how to project charisma on the world stage.

David Cameron is not a great leader in any respect. We are talking about the man who hired Andy Coulson as his press officer, a dumb move in the extreme. We are talking about the man who put Michael Gove into education, giving the UK a disastrous free school policy. We are talking about the man who put Andrew Lansley into health and who started destroying the NHS as a public health service. He has no vision for the UK and had to practically beg Scotland not to divorce them. Responsibility for Tory policies stop with him, the leader of the party and current PM.

Son Of A Vidic · 14-03-2015 4:03pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics

You won't find any and probably never will. Because the standard political CV in this country, must be big on complete blind obedience and yesmanship. Unfortunately the net result is, an invariable selection of dumbed downed, inane candidates.

View · 14-03-2015 5:44pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

That's not the definition of a great leader. You must have a great manager/boss.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyaprive/2012/12/19/top-10-qualities-that-make-a-great-leader/

The article you link to has to do with business not politics. That is a complete different set of demands and skills - there is no option, for instance, for a political leader to hire and fire TDs, that's reserved for the electorate (who are typically not "hiring" TDs based on managerial competence, much less visionary leadership skills).

Our political system - using PR- and parliamentary democracy is built to produce broad consensus not radical change imposed by a "great leader" - a questionable ideal even if we could somehow identify someone who was right as opposed to dead wrong which is what most "great leaders" turn out to be in practice.

jmayo · 19-03-2015 1:41pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Because I'd rather having one great leader, than having a hundred mediocre leaders. Ireland needs something to whip it out of the apathy the current political system finds itself in, and a charismatic, nationalist (doing what is best for the country, not what's best for the handful of people in their constituency) leader is the best contender.

And we all laughed.
Oh yes lets a charismatic leader, someone like that obama fellow. :rolleyes:

If an Irish politican ignored their constituency they will find they don't have a job come the next election.
To get any decent leader you need pretty good politicans.
To get those you need an electorate who aren't a bunch of self serving gobdaws.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Ireland needs a good kick up the arse, we're in top 15 for GDP per capita (PPP), so we should start acting with a bit of cop on and stop playing tribal politics. It's about time Ireland gets out of the kiddie pool, puts on its big boy pants, and actually sets about bettering itself, rather than waiting for corrupt or moronic people in the Dáil to do something.

Isn't a lot of that down to the actual population and particulalry the voters.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Also, having a "great" leader, doesn't necessitate a single party State. David Cameron, despite his party's failings, is quite a great leader. Yes, he's messed up a lot, but he knows how to play the political game in the UK, and he knows how to project charisma on the world stage.

Oh dear God.
Now I know you are snorting or sniffing something and if you aren't then maybe you should start.

I think one of the few half decent leaders at the moment is Merkel and even then she is making a bit of a balls with Russia.
When you look back at the people leading the world's major countries in the likes of even the 80s, todays crew are spineless ditherers in comparison.

Smart people make too much money in the private sector nowadays to be bothered to go into public service or look for public office.
Added to that the level of scrutiny is now huge.
Hell even the sex lives of the leader of France is no longer off limits.

golfball37 · 25-03-2015 11:11am

Like him or loathe him CJH was the last great leader in Irish Politics

A Primal Nut · 25-03-2015 11:23am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Those type of people are not stupid enough to go into politics in the first place and are more than likely running or high up in various major multi-national companies around the world

Exactly. If you enter politics you are guaranteed to be hated by half the country no matter what you do. And truly great leaders can earn so much more in the private sector.

You also need a lot of time on your hands to work your way up in politics; something teachers have.

Playboy · 25-03-2015 11:33am

Politics just isn't attractive enough for truly charismatic and intelligent people anymore. It is a lot of hassle for very little reward and no one wants their life put under a microscope. We as the public need to be more forgiving of individuals who have made some mistakes in their past. I dont really care if someone smoked a joint, popped a pill or cheated on his wife with a man. As long as it isnt serious criminal activity that affects his/her ability to do the job then I dont care. We expect all our politicians to be puritans.. why would anyone want that for a modest salary? You could earn far more privately and have a far easier life.

Gone West · 25-03-2015 11:35am

The great Irish leaders are mostly all working in industry, living here or abroad (mostly abroad).

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 2:39pm

Martin McGuinness. For my money the best leader/statesman/politician in the country.

Chips Lovell · 25-03-2015 3:37pm

Polled fairly poorly in the presidential election, so whatever your view on his qualities, he'd be likely to fall at the first hurdle, i.e. winning popular support.

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 3:41pm

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Polled fairly poorly in the presidential election, so whatever your view on his qualities, he'd be likely to fall at the first hurdle, i.e. winning popular support.

But didnt the OP just set up the premise that popular support does not equate to great leadership qualities.
Also, kinda takes the sting out of the election result when you consider so many irish citizens were excluded from voting but that's another matter

Calina · 25-03-2015 3:49pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

But didnt the OP just set up the premise that popular support does not equate to great leadership qualities.
Also, kinda takes the sting out of the election result when you consider so many irish citizens were excluded from voting but that's another matter

Would this be because they don't live in the state?

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 4:35pm

Calina wrote: »

Would this be because they don't live in the state?

Let's not get into a Free State/Ireland country/nation president of Ireland/the south argument. Nobody's current position is going to be swayed.
Thankfully, that is in the process of being changed and at the next election we may very well have a true Irish president

C14N · 25-03-2015 5:51pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Martin McGuinness. For my money the best leader/statesman/politician in the country.

After Dana, he was really the most painful person to listen to in that presidential election. If McGuinness was Taoiseach I would probably start packing my bags.

micosoft · 25-03-2015 6:39pm

View wrote: »

The article you link to has to do with business not politics. That is a complete different set of demands and skills - there is no option, for instance, for a political leader to hire and fire TDs, that's reserved for the electorate (who are typically not "hiring" TDs based on managerial competence, much less visionary leadership skills).

Our political system - using PR- and parliamentary democracy is built to produce broad consensus not radical change imposed by a "great leader" - a questionable ideal even if we could somehow identify someone who was right as opposed to dead wrong which is what most "great leaders" turn out to be in practice.

This. The naive think that it's down to individuals who are either great or bad. The reality in life is that people are moulded by the systems they operate in. It's a strange idea that we would not turn out consensus type politicians like Bertie and Kenny given the political system we have which creates them. Likewise radical reform is simply not possible in a system where there are so many checks and balances that only slow incremental change is possible.

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 7:19pm

C14N wrote: »

After Dana, he was really the most painful person to listen to in that presidential election. If McGuinness was Taoiseach I would probably start packing my bags.

Ah would you quit man. As if i needed another reason to vote SF

oscarBravo · 25-03-2015 7:27pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Thankfully, that is in the process of being changed and at the next election we may very well have a true Irish president

As distinct from the false Irish presidents we've had until now?

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 8:33pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

As distinct from the false Irish presidents we've had until now?

Well, like i say, there is a certain level of legitimacy lacking when such a large section of the population is excluded from the vote. i suppose President of Most of Ireland doesnt sound quite as impressive

Calina · 25-03-2015 8:35pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well, like i say, there is a certain level of legitimacy lacking when such a large section of the population is excluded from the vote. i suppose President of Most of Ireland doesnt sound quite as impressive

He's the President of the Republic of Ireland, and a large section of the population of the Republic of Ireland is not excluded from the vote in those terms.

C14N · 25-03-2015 10:42pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Ah would you quit man. As if i needed another reason to vote SF

He was genuinely awful, worse than if Adams or Mary Lou had run. There's no way he would get support from anyone who wasn't already a die heard Sinner to begin with.

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 10:46pm

Calina wrote: »

He's the President of the Republic of Ireland, and a large section of the population of the Republic of Ireland is not excluded from the vote in those terms.

That's not what his official title is.

Crooked Jack · 25-03-2015 10:48pm

C14N wrote: »

He was genuinely awful, worse than if Adams or Mary Lou had run. There's no way he would get support from anyone who wasn't already a die heard Sinner to begin with.

So there were a quarter of a million die hard shinners in the south in 2011.
Sounds like a good foundation to build a party on. I mean, if that's just the hard core.

C14N · 25-03-2015 10:57pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So there were a quarter of a million die hard shinners in the south in 2011.
Sounds like a good foundation to build a party on. I mean, if that's just the hard core.

Not really when the party in its present form had been around for about 40 years at the time. That was around 14% of the vote (pretty typical for what SF got in general political polls at the time) and, based purely on personal experience, very few people who choose FF, FG or Labour tend to go for Sinn Fein as a second choice in general elections.

K4t · 27-03-2015 3:10am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Those type of people are not stupid enough to go into politics in the first place and are more than likely running or high up in various major multi-national companies around the world

Somehow I doubt the CEOs of major multinationals seriously considered going into politics before ultimately deciding it was unwise or stupid to do so due to some of the reasons given in this thread..

John Mongo · 28-03-2015 4:18pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Where are all the great leaders in Irish politics and our public service?
Where are the strong, inspirational leaders you would be proud of? We did have them in the past.

Our last great leader in either politics or the public service was Lieutenant General Dermot Earley DSM.

An absolute mountain of a man, who cared about every last soldier in his organisation, he knew exactly how to make people buy into an idea, could walk into a room and instantly have the attention of every single person there and he had no issues with facing civil servants head on.

There's no doubt in my mind that a career in Irish politics would have followed the ending of his service in the Defence Forces and it's Ireland's loss that such a move wasn't realised.

C14N · 28-03-2015 8:48pm

K4t wrote: »

Somehow I doubt the CEOs of major multinationals seriously considered going into politics before ultimately deciding it was unwise or stupid to do so due to some of the reasons given in this thread..

It's not that they made a list of pros and cons of each option and then picked "be CEO of a multinational company" over "be Taoiseach" but the fact that politicians in this country get so much flack means that smart and charismatic people won't even consider it in the first place and will instead tend to just drift toward private jobs. If we had a culture where being a politician or a leader of the country was widely looked upon as a noble role that demanded respect, more people would just grow up or come out of school aspiring to do that.

K4t · 29-03-2015 2:12am

C14N wrote: »

It's not that they made a list of pros and cons of each option and then picked "be CEO of a multinational company" over "be Taoiseach" but the fact that politicians in this country get so much flack means that smart and charismatic people won't even consider it in the first place and will instead tend to just drift toward private jobs. If we had a culture where being a politician or a leader of the country was widely looked upon as a noble role that demanded respect, more people would just grow up or come out of school aspiring to do that.

A great leader would help change the culture (See Obama), not wait until it's fashionable and noble to be a leader. The smart and charismatic CEOS obviously lack something too which would make them great political leaders i.e. a sense of duty.

C14N · 05-04-2015 11:15am

K4t wrote: »

A great leader would help change the culture (See Obama), not wait until it's fashionable and noble to be a leader. The smart and charismatic CEOS obviously lack something too which would make them great political leaders i.e. a sense of duty.

That's great, so what you're basically saying is to just wait around for a messiah to descent from the heavens and come and save the country instead of just trying to encourage competent but existent people to get into politics. And Barack Obama really didn't change the political culture of the US at all.

Where are all the great leaders in Ireland?

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