understanding note in marriage record

carolinej · 27-08-2015 4:19pm #1

hi,
I think I've managed to locate my great grandparents marriage record, there's a note written in the side of book I cannot make out. Anyone chance a stab at it???

P. Breathnach · 27-08-2015 6:01pm

It's a bit small!

I can get "Hoc matrinomium celebratum fuit ex dep???? parochi Bally???" and I presume the last bit is the priest's signature.

"This marriage was celebrated (outside or from) <something I can't read> of the parish of Bally(something)."

wexflyer · 27-08-2015 6:44pm

Which parish register is this extract from?
I think the last few lines are
... ex deputationis parochi Ballyduff et ???

Which I believe translates to something like
This marriage was celebrated by appointment in the parish of Ballyduff and ???

CeannRua · 27-08-2015 10:04pm

Ballyduff and Portlaw, maybe? It would be better if you linked to the page so that the image can be enlarged, OP.

CeannRua · 28-08-2015 7:23am

Google Translate gives what Wexflyer suggests but this is an odd note as surely all marriages are celebrated by appointment. Always have to question priests' Latin. If the Latin becomes 'Hoc matrimonium celebratum fuit ex deputation parochus Ballyduff et Portlaw', Google Translate then suggests that 'This marriage was celebrated by the parish priest appointed to Ballyduff and Portlaw.'

This would be worthy of note if the register shown is not that of Ballyduff. Also, can't see the ending of the word deputation... properly as image is too small.

P. Breathnach · 28-08-2015 9:24am

CeannRua wrote: »

Google Translate gives what Wexflyer suggests but this is an odd note as surely all marriages are celebrated by appointment. Always have to question priests' Latin. If the Latin becomes 'Hoc matrimonium celebratum fuit ex deputation parochus Ballyduff et Portlaw', Google Translate then suggests that 'This marriage was celebrated by the parish priest appointed to Ballyduff and Portlaw.'

This would be worthy of note if the register shown is not that of Ballyduff. Also, can't see the ending of the word deputation... properly as image is too small.

Aha! The Latin word deputation can mean a person filling a role, similar to the English word appointee. Thus deputation parochi can mean the person appointed to the parish - the parish priest. [I don't think parochi is wrong; it looks like the genitive of parochus, meaning "of the parish". But I was a poor Latin scholar, and it was a long time ago, anyway.]

It seems that the marriage ceremony was conducted by somebody other than the priest of the parish. OP, do you know if there was a priest in the family of either bride or groom?

carolinej · 28-08-2015 10:55am

sorry for small image of page, I'm not great at uploading these images

here is link to page, it's the record for Michael Power and Ellen Power, second from bottom of page, date is 24th May.

I'm also unable to figure out the grooms parents name - the surname doesn't look like it's Power and also the bestman's first name is hard to read..

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632109#page/27/mode/1up

carolinej · 28-08-2015 11:00am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Aha! The Latin word deputation can mean a person filling a role, similar to the English word appointee. Thus deputation parochi can mean the person appointed to the parish - the parish priest. [I don't think parochi is wrong; it looks like the genitive of parochus, meaning "of the parish". But I was a poor Latin scholar, and it was a long time ago, anyway.]

It seems that the marriage ceremony was conducted by somebody other than the priest of the parish. OP, do you know if there was a priest in the family of either bride or groom?

No, I don't know. These I think are my paternal great great grandparents. It's taken me years to find this. I managed to get from my great grandparents marrriage cert the bride's father's name but because it's Michael Power, in Waterford that's like searching for a needle in a haystack!!!!! Plus in the 1901 census they were recorded as Flynn but by 1911 my great grandmother and her sister were recorded as Power and were living with their stepfather so big time confused!

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__3/Mayors_Walk/1764937/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Waterford_No__3_Urban/Mayor_s_Walk/673507/

carolinej · 28-08-2015 11:04am

CeannRua wrote: »

Google Translate gives what Wexflyer suggests but this is an odd note as surely all marriages are celebrated by appointment. Always have to question priests' Latin. If the Latin becomes 'Hoc matrimonium celebratum fuit ex deputation parochus Ballyduff et Portlaw', Google Translate then suggests that 'This marriage was celebrated by the parish priest appointed to Ballyduff and Portlaw.'

This would be worthy of note if the register shown is not that of Ballyduff. Also, can't see the ending of the word deputation... properly as image is too small.

the register is for the Parish of Ballybricken in Waterford City.

pedroeibar1 · 28-08-2015 11:06am

The word for parish usually is parochia, first declension, so the genitive (of the parish) should be parochiae. I've also seen parochus, used, so parochii would be correct. I wonder could it refer to a priest deputising for the parish priest as suggested by PB above?
I've been going through early 1800's baptism registers for the last while and my head is wrecked from the "bog Latin" used by the clergy, not to mention the scrawls. I wonder what they were at in Maynooth during Latin class!

pedroeibar1 · 28-08-2015 11:21am

Son of Thomas and Johanna Dee (mother's maiden name?) of Ballyduff
Daughter of David and Margaret Power of Grenan
Priest was Guiliermus (William) Quealy(?)
Witnesses Johannes Fitzgerald of Short something (Church?) and Margaret Kenny of Francis Street
(Johannes might look a little like James but that name is usually written as Jacobus

carolinej · 28-08-2015 11:26am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Son of Thomas and Johanna Dee (mother's maiden name?) of Ballyduff
Daughter of David and Margaret Power of Grenan
Priest was Guiliermus (William) Quealy(?)
Witnesses Johannes Fitzgerald of Short something (Church?) and Margaret Kenny of Francis Street
(Johannes might look a little like James but that name is usually written as Jacobus

Thanks very much!! I'd never have figured it out myself! thank heavens for Boards.ie :-)

pedroeibar1 · 28-08-2015 11:39am

Looking again at the full page the comment is in the notes/observations column - I think it refers to a permission given by the parish priest of Ballyduff & Portlaw. You need to check the ages to see if banns were required.

carolinej · 28-08-2015 11:47am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Looking again at the full page the comment is in the notes/observations column - I think it refers to a permission given by the parish priest of Ballyduff & Portlaw. You need to check the ages to see if banns were required.

I've applied to General Registrar for the civil marriage records. If I go by 1901 census Ellen Power/Flynn was 55 so in 1879 she'd have been 33. Is permission / banns needed if couple were under 21???

pedroeibar1 · 28-08-2015 12:05pm

carolinej wrote: »

Is permission / banns needed if couple were under 21???

Yes. I'm rusty on the marriage laws for late 1800s, but those who had not attained 21 years, parental consent was necessary if the couple married by licence; marriages by banns were valid provided the parent of the minor did not actually forbid the banns.

carolinej · 28-08-2015 12:10pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Yes. I'm rusty on the marriage laws for late 1800s, but those who had not attained 21 years, parental consent was necessary if the couple married by licence; marriages by banns were valid provided the parent of the minor did not actually forbid the banns.

Ok, thank you. I'll just have to wait for the cert from Registrar to check their ages.
I've tried looking at church records for Ballyduff for baptism of Michael Power but I started seeing stars after a few minutes trying to make it out

wexflyer · 28-08-2015 3:42pm

There is another, clearer, example of the same note (but different location), further up the same page.

CeannRua · 29-08-2015 8:06am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Aha! The Latin word deputation can mean a person filling a role, similar to the English word appointee. Thus deputation parochi can mean the person appointed to the parish - the parish priest. [I don't think parochi is wrong; it looks like the genitive of parochus, meaning "of the parish". But I was a poor Latin scholar, and it was a long time ago, anyway.]

It seems that the marriage ceremony was conducted by somebody other than the priest of the parish. OP, do you know if there was a priest in the family of either bride or groom?

I don't think (?) there's any difference between what you and I are suggesting really. From the enhanced image the note reads 'Hoc matrimonium celebratum fuit ex deptuatione. Parochi Ballyduff et Portlaw.' There seems to be a full stop between ex deptuatione and parochi.

CeannRua · 29-08-2015 8:08am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Son of Thomas and Johanna Dee (mother's maiden name?) of Ballyduff
Daughter of David and Margaret Power of Grenan
Priest was Guiliermus (William) Quealy(?)
Witnesses Johannes Fitzgerald of Short something (Church?) and Margaret Kenny of Francis Street
(Johannes might look a little like James but that name is usually written as Jacobus

Witness Fitzgerald's address is Short Course.

Peregrinus · 31-08-2015 3:55am

Further up the page there's a similar entry, except that it refers to Carrick on Suir.

I'd say this relates to the requirement of Catholic canon law that a marriage should normally be celebrated in a parish in which at least one of the spouses resides. This requirement was introduced in the sixteenth century to guard against people going off and marrying in places where nobody knew them, in the hope of getting away with the fact that one of them was already married.

For whatever reason, it suited this couple to marry in Waterford City, where perhaps neither of them lived, or had lived long enough to qualify as residents, and the celebrant (who is also the celebrant for many other marriages on the same page, and was presumably a priest of the parish) got the right canonical sign-off from the home parish of one of the couple, and noted the fact in the margin.

tabbey · 01-09-2015 12:19am

The best man is Joannes (John) Fitzgerald of Short Course. This is a lane off Barrack Street, just south of Ballybricken RC church.
As both the bride and groom reside in Ballyduff, it is appropriate that the PP of Ballyduff and Portlaw should give approval, or allow the clergy of Ballybricken to deputise in the marriage. There are many possible reasons why a couple from Ballyduff might choose to marry in Ballybricken, the hub of the old city; their friends may all be there; they may have arranged a reception in the city, or they may even plan on departing on their honeymoon from Waterford. It is also possible that they do not get on with someone in Ballyduff, or that Ellen was visibly pregnant. It is probably significant that both witnesses live within a minutes walk of the church.

carolinej · 03-09-2015 11:25am

tabbey wrote: »

The best man is Joannes (John) Fitzgerald of Short Course. This is a lane off Barrack Street, just south of Ballybricken RC church.
As both the bride and groom reside in Ballyduff, it is appropriate that the PP of Ballyduff and Portlaw should give approval, or allow the clergy of Ballybricken to deputise in the marriage. There are many possible reasons why a couple from Ballyduff might choose to marry in Ballybricken, the hub of the old city; their friends may all be there; they may have arranged a reception in the city, or they may even plan on departing on their honeymoon from Waterford. It is also possible that they do not get on with someone in Ballyduff, or that Ellen was visibly pregnant. It is probably significant that both witnesses live within a minutes walk of the church.

The couple & their two daughters, one who whom is my great grandmother, were living on Mayor's Walk. Although, if you look at the census return links I included in an earlier post, they seen to have a habit of changing their surname (were they fugitives ha!) but I'm fairly certain it's the same family. I have heard of a family link to Ballyduff/Kilmeaden and still have distant cousins living there, most likely my gg grandparents are the link.

AFAIK they had a shop. The other daughter, my great grand aunt went onto own a small village shop in Co Waterford in later years & my great grandmother's marriage cert records her father's occupation as shopkeeper.

carolinej · 07-09-2015 2:02pm

I got some really helpful replies last week to my post trying to understand church marriage record. I'm now after getting the civil marriage record. Sadly, no new or exciting extra information :-(
There's a note beside the groom's mark about the witness I think - I can't make it out - any takers?
thanks,
C

KildareFan · 07-09-2015 2:38pm

The groom signed with his mark which was witnessed by W Queally the priest [I think that's his name]

understanding note in marriage record

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