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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]
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Is this Luas line really needed now, if the Metro North line is to be built beneath this almost same route (from O'Connell to Stephens Green)? I know this is only one phase of the BXD line as there is a plan to extend the line to Broombridge and maybe even beyond it.
IMO I think it should be a twin track on O'Connell St. it would look better and be more user friendly for tourists looking for the return tram after seeing the city centre.
Looking at some of the Metro North plan drawings you can see the proposed Luas BXD line. From this drawing it looks like the trams on the red line will be able to turn left up O'Connell St. and the trams on the BXD line will be able to turn left on to Abbey St.
Link:
RTE news report0 -
Judgement Day wrote: »I must say that I have never understood the calls for the two Luas lines to be linked up and, if they must be, the Green line should be connected to the Red line via Pearse/Tara Street and Connolly Stations. In this way some additional traffic might be gained for the many millions of Euros that this project will eat up.
I'm going to firstly express incredulity at your view that the two lines don't need to be linked up - can you explain, because to me it is absolutely imperative that they are linked, an immediately. It is a joke that we have two tram lines that do not integrate.
However, I do agree somewhat with you suggested alternative route. I think that the new line should pass closer to Busarus and Connolly Station.
Someone above said that Dublin Bus objected to there being two tram lines on O'Connell Street. Sod them. They can send their southbound buses down Marlborough Street. But in my view O'Connell Street is wide enough for pedestrians, two bus lanes, two regular car lanes and two tram lanes and a central median - especially as they removed all the mature trees. The two luas lines should be on one side of the street, and maybe share it with buses.
Regarding the line to Broombridge, doesn't this have a lot to do with DIT moving to a site near Broadstone?0 -
For an integrated network to exist, we need to ensure that lines, such as the LUAS, link with each other, it should have been done from the outset, and we could already be talking about additional LUAS lines, rather than still joining up the two that already exist.0
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I am assuming this is a brand new line not just an extension of the Green Line.
1/. I don't understand they started at St. Stephen Green since the Metro North already going from there to O'Connell Street.
Metro North is a RPA project too.
The Advertising for Metro North was meant to link the Green line to the Red line to allow commuters to gain access to both lines.
The overlap between the two lines is better than one taking over from the other at SSG. Luas passengers (travelling from a southside stop) going to the Parnell Square area can remain on the tram rather than switching to the Metro to complete their journeys.0 -
Poster King wrote: »Someone above said that Dublin Bus objected to there being two tram lines on O'Connell Street. Sod them. They can send their southbound buses down Marlborough Street. But in my view O'Connell Street is wide enough for pedestrians, two bus lanes, two regular car lanes and two tram lanes and a central median - especially as they removed all the mature trees. The two luas lines should be on one side of the street, and maybe share it with buses.
Heh! Sod them indeed.
Dublin Bus should ask for cars to be shifted from O'Connell Street instead.0 -
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Poster King wrote: »Someone above said that Dublin Bus objected to there being two tram lines on O'Connell Street. Sod them. They can send their southbound buses down Marlborough Street.
+1.
If anything we should be thinking about how to remove DB from the OC/Westmoreland/Dolier axis and get the core of the city cleaned up and more pedestrian friendly. This area has such potential, being wasted as a glorified bus depot.
Luas BX seems to just add to this vague mess rather than solving it, which it could so easily do. Talk about missing an open goal.0 -
Indeed staying on a BXD line tram if it existed from Sandyford to Parnell Sq would get you there. But it would be peanuts compared to the amount of buses using the same corridor ( how many buses turn left at Dawson St/Nassau St currently ? )
Also the traffic on Middle Abbey St and Harcourt St has never recovered since the LUAS lines were built, essentially apart from dropping off points they are really LUAS rights-of-way now.
SSG West is only used really to get to car parks. ( waste of valuable city centre roads )
Metro North ( edit: sorry had written west ) is already applied for , has been stated to be the priority, duplicates a lot of the city centre BXD and is better for the Northside.
I repeat: crayoning of the worst order by the RPA, deserve a swat of the ruler for this crapola.
Where's the useful stuff like Interconnector, MN ?0 -
Where's the useful stuff like Interconnector, MN ?
Haven't they already applied for a railway order for MN and are in the middle of APB hearings? And there's not much RPA can do about the interconnector
Maybe I'm being a pessimist but I can imagine BXD is more likely to happen in the short term than MN.0 -
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If anything we should be thinking about how to remove DB from the OC/Westmoreland/Dolier axis and get the core of the city cleaned up and more pedestrian friendly. This area has such potential, being wasted as a glorified bus depot.
Dublin city centre definitely has to be cleaned up of all the traffic which is smothering it. With all the rail/light rail projects planned for the city centre (Luas, Metro North, Interconnector) there will be less demand for buses and the remaining buses could be accommodated on streets surronding the OC/Westmoreland/Dolier axis but not on it. Improved public transport means less private motorists in the city centre, they should be discouraged anyway, especially those who drive through the city centre to avoid paying the M50 toll. Less private motorists means more space for buses and we could build grade separated BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) corridors like has been suggested for Cork (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055942627).
This would allow the creation of a pedestrian corridor stretching from Parnel Street end of O'Connell Street via Westmoreland Street and down Grafton Street to Stephens Green with a plaza in the middle at College Green. This would be fantastic for the city and make it more attractive. This corridor would be served by Luas above ground and Metro North and Dart via Interconnector underground. Of course if O'Connell Street was pedestrianise, except for Luas, it would allow trams to run down both sides of the street.0 -
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whoever made the call to have the Luas lines unconnected from Day 1 should be jailed. It was a ludicrous decision. At least they should have linked them, and cancelled the bit to the airport if they had to.
But to have them disconnected was absolute madness.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »With all the rail/light rail projects planned for the city centre (Luas, Metro North, Interconnector) there will be less demand for buses and the remaining buses could be accommodated on streets surronding the OC/Westmoreland/Dolier axis but not on it.
I don't think you understand, this is Ireland, we don't do integrated. Dublin Bus doesn't see rail and light rail as synergistic partners, it sees them as competitors.0 -
I don't think you understand, this is Ireland, we don't do integrated. Dublin Bus doesn't see rail and light rail as synergistic partners, it sees them as competitors.
Sadly this true on all fronts.
Get on a DART or a Luas and the maps you see on them pretty much ignore the other company's transport system.
Turf war wins over the people. :mad:0 -
How sad that 6 years after the opening of the two luas lines, we are still talking about joining them up. It was a monumental **** up and orchestrated by a Government party that still clings to power like a newborn baby clings to a bottle or titty.
MONUMENTAL **** UP!
And lots more to come no matter what party is in power. Irish politicians don't do decent public transport, but if they did, it would still be the worst public transport imaginable.
Another CARLSBERG please.:D (and its only Wednesday night;))0 -
Chris_5339762 wrote: »I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whoever made the call to have the Luas lines unconnected from Day 1 should be jailed. It was a ludicrous decision. At least they should have linked them, and cancelled the bit to the airport if they had to.
But to have them disconnected was absolute madness.
That would be Mary O'Rourke you could also charge Bertie Ahern with "joint venture" -- heck FF nearly scrapped the entire project when they got elected in 1997 so we should count ourselves lucky that we even got two disconnected lines.0 -
What does BXD stand for anyway? ... B*ll*XeD like the thinking that went in to the LUAS plans originally?:rolleyes:0
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I still remain totally unconvinced that a city centre link up of the LUAS is necessary given that it duplicates Metro North for much of the route.
There are other examples of this - Barcelona for example has two completely unconnected tram lines that are linked by metro. Why cause mayhem in construction when there will be a subsurface metro linking the two lines - with an integrated ticket allowing changeovers.Funny, if the linkup existed, I'd have used it twice a day, every working day for three years. My colleague who lives near James' Hospital and works in Sandyford would use it. Countless people would use it. People who live in Smithfield and work near Harcourt would use it. People who live in Tallaght and work in Charlemont would use it.
Much of those journeys that you quote can already be done by bus without changing and with the various cross-city route mergers under the Network Direct project that will become even more possible. The 92 bus links the Quays area with the St Stephen's Green area. Anyone using the LUAS to go from Tallaght to Charlemont would want their head examined. They would use the 65/65b as the LUAS would be far slower.
To the people who are saying sod Dublin Bus and move the services away from the city centre, I would make the point that even with the Interconnector, Metro North, and the various LUAS extensions, the bus will still remain the largest mode of public transport in the city. So should the majority of people be discommoded to facilitate a minority?
I'm all for integrated transport, but Metro North will deliver the linkage between the two LUAS lines, and the Green Line and Irish Rail at Drumcondra. This absolute need to build line BX has always mystified me.0 -
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JupiterKid wrote: »What does BXD stand for anyway? ... B*ll*XeD like the thinking that went in to the LUAS plans originally?:rolleyes:
lines B eXtension and D, the two original plans combined together0 -
I still remain totally unconvinced that a city centre link up of the LUAS is necessary given that it duplicates Metro North for much of the route.
Luas BXD Line is 5.6km long and Metro North is over 18km long. BXD only duplicates MN for a few hundred metres from St Stephens Green to O'Connell Street and those two places are the only places they will both have stations. That can hardly be considered duplication for "most of the route". From O'Connell Street they then run in completely different directions and will serve different communities. Line BXD is not just a link up.
MN would not provide adequate links between the two existing Luas Lines when you consider metro stations will be >30m below the ground. It could not be considered an integrated network if after getting on the Luas you have to get off at a metro stop, go 30m below ground, travel one stop on the metro and go back above ground to get another Luas to complete your journey.To the people who are saying sod Dublin Bus and move the services away from the city centre, I would make the point that even with the Interconnector, Metro North, and the various LUAS extensions, the bus will still remain the largest mode of public transport in the city. So should the majority of people be discommoded to facilitate a minority?
The bus may be more popular now but that is because of the poor state of rail/light rail in the city. Once Luas extensions, MN and Interconnector are complete, rail will soon become a lot more popular than buses. Rail and light rail are higher capacity, more reliable and more sustainable then bus transport and that is why we should be moving away from bus transport. Just because the majority of people use buses at the minute does not mean we should focus on buses as the main mode of transport in Dublin city centre. That would be a very short sighted view.0 -
Funny, if the linkup existed, I'd have used it twice a day, every working day for three years. My colleague who lives near James' Hospital and works in Sandyford would use it. Countless people would use it. People who live in Smithfield and work near Harcourt would use it. People who live in Tallaght and work in Charlemont would use it.
Just to add to my post above, I've not seen anywhere that trams will switch between the two lines or that there will be connecting tracks between the two. We'll have to wait until the EIS comes out to see.
As I see it the two lines will be separate, and customers will have to get off at O'Connell Street off BX heading north and walk to Abbey to switch etc., which makes the argument for it all the less forthright in my view given the impending redesign of the bus network with more cross-city options and the development of Metro North.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »Luas BXD Line is 5.6km long and Metro North is over 18km long. BXD only duplicates MN for a few hundred metres from St Stephens Green to O'Connell Street and those two places are the only places they will both have stations. That can hardly be considered duplication for "most of the route". From O'Connell Street they then run in completely different directions and will serve different communities. Line BXD is not just a link up.
MN would not provide adequate links between the two existing Luas Lines when you consider metro stations will be >30m below the ground. It could not be considered an integrated network if after getting on the Luas you have to get off at a metro stop, go 30m below ground, travel one stop on the metro and go back above ground to get another Luas to complete your journey.
The bus may be more popular now but that is because of the poor state of rail/light rail in the city. Once Luas extensions, MN and Interconnector are complete, rail will soon become a lot more popular than buses. Rail and light rail are higher capacity, more reliable and more sustainable then bus transport and that is why we should be moving away from bus transport. Just because the majority of people use buses at the minute does not mean we should focus on buses as the main mode of transport in Dublin city centre. That would be a very short sighted view.
How can you possibly suggest that the bus will not be still the major form of transport. Huge areas of the city will remain unserved by rail and the bus will still be the major form of transport in Dublin.
As it is along the DART lines the bus service still carries huge numbers despite the DART. The Stillorgan, Templeogue, Rathfarnham, Greenhills, Lucan, Finglas, Malahide Road and some of the Swords QBC routes will still be primarily bus based. That will not change.
The sheer notion that the bus service can be swept under the carpet is nonsense.
I honestly do not think that there are such huge numbers that would require changes from red line to green line that would warrant building line BXD in addition to the Metro. The 92 bus (or higher frequency 145 after network direct implementation) does much of the job as it is and is already consistently faster than the LUAS in the city centre.
The section of BXD that is unique is from Parnell Square to Broadstone. Does that in itself warrant a LUAS line when there are a wide range of alternatives there already?
I just feel that this is an unnecessary spending of resources when the benefits are not that huge.0 -
Much of those journeys that you quote can already be done by bus without changing
Perhaps the Network Direct will make a difference but travelling by bus through the city centre is still terribly slow. My 19 from Camden St to O'Connell St took 25 minutes yesterday at 7pm.Anyone using the LUAS to go from Tallaght to Charlemont would want their head examined. They would use the 65/65b as the LUAS would be far slower.
It might not make sense but it's well documented that people are more likely to make the switch from car to train/tram than car to bus. The waiting time is well known, the simplicity of the route makes it more attractive, the ride is generally more comfortable, it's easier for old people and people with bags or luggage to board, etc. The train is better perceived than the bus - whether this is correct or not (ie whether the 92 is faster than the Luas or not) is irrelevant -people prefer trains to buses.To the people who are saying sod Dublin Bus and move the services away from the city centre, I would make the point that even with the Interconnector, Metro North, and the various LUAS extensions, the bus will still remain the largest mode of public transport in the city. So should the majority of people be discommoded to facilitate a minority?
It will only be a problem if DB don't re-organise themselves again once MN, Interconnector and BXD are completed. If they did, it should drastically reduce the number of buses passing through the city centre. There should be very few areas that won't have a train service and they should be served by feeder buses.Just to add to my post above, I've not seen anywhere that trams will switch between the two lines or that there will be connecting tracks between the two. We'll have to wait until the EIS comes out to see.
According to the RPA, the lines will be connected but only for stock movement, not for passenger service.0 -
That's quite different though, the Trambaix and Trambesos are two self-contained networks of three lines each at either end of the city, and they are going to be connected to one another along the Diagonal anyway at a later date.I still remain totally unconvinced that a city centre link up of the LUAS is necessary given that it duplicates Metro North for much of the route.
There are other examples of this - Barcelona for example has two completely unconnected tram lines that are linked by metro. Why cause mayhem in construction when there will be a subsurface metro linking the two lines - with an integrated ticket allowing changeovers.
It's the 'D' part of it that is more important in the long term, between the two of BX and D there will be a 2nd cross city line that is only partially duplicated by Metro North. I wouldn't prioritise BXD over the Metro being as the Metro will serve as an indirect link, but I wouldn't long finger it either. As for the whole "Broombridge (and thusly Finglas) is a urine soaked hell hole", if you're only going to invest in public transport in the affluent and maturly developed areas in the city then we may as well all give up now. You dont just rollover and leave areas of the city to fester for all time.I'm all for integrated transport, but Metro North will deliver the linkage between the two LUAS lines, and the Green Line and Irish Rail at Drumcondra. This absolute need to build line BX has always mystified me.0 -
Perhaps the Network Direct will make a difference but travelling by bus through the city centre is still terribly slow. My 19 from Camden St to O'Connell St took 25 minutes yesterday at 7pm.
If the bus gate hours were further extended that would substantially improve that journey time.It might not make sense but it's well documented that people are more likely to make the switch from car to train/tram than car to bus. The waiting time is well known, the simplicity of the route makes it more attractive, the ride is generally more comfortable, it's easier for old people and people with bags or luggage to board, etc. The train is better perceived than the bus - whether this is correct or not (ie whether the 92 is faster than the Luas or not) is irrelevant -people prefer trains to buses.
It is an unfortunate misconception but some decent marketing needs to change that viewpoint once the bus network is redesigned, along with the implementation of RTPI and more bus priority which will deliver a much better bus service at a fraction of the cost of line BXD. The reality is that from Heuston Station to O'Connell Bridge the bus wins every time in terms of journey time, yet people are like sheep still using LUAS.It will only be a problem if DB don't re-organise themselves again once MN, Interconnector and BXD are completed. If they did, it should drastically reduce the number of buses passing through the city centre. There should be very few areas that won't have a train service and they should be served by feeder buses.
There are 7 out of the 13 QBC routes that will still see dominant bus usage and where people will still need to get to the city centre by bus. On the Blanchardstown, Howth Road and Rock Road QBC routes where there is a rail alternative, bus usage is still very high. I don't see line BXD making any real change to this.According to the RPA, the lines will be connected but only for stock movement, not for passenger service.
Thanks for that link!
But as I say I've not seen anything in your posts that tells me that line BXD is essential. I view Metro North and the Interconnector as the two vital links of the various transport routes. The redesigned bus network with additional on street priority and real time information will (in my opinion) deliver a huge improvement that far outweighs anything line BXD can. As it is there is going to be a large decrease in buses going up/down O'Connell Street by virtue of Network Direct.0 -
This is ridiculous. People are seriously applauding this. As KC61 and myself have said, where do people plan on putting the buses ? Check out the number of routes dropping into the City Centre that would be messed up by this.
Either RPA have been eating the crayons, or this crapola will be funded instead of MN.0 -
If the bus gate hours were further extended that would substantially improve that journey time.
The bus gate had nothing to do that with that delay, it was all on Camden St and Georges St. Even with the bus gate and turning restriction onto Dame St, the bus journey was unreliable. I use DB all the time but that's not going to attract anyone.There are 7 out of the 13 QBC routes that will still see dominant bus usage and where people will still need to get to the city centre by bus. On the Blanchardstown, Howth Road and Rock Road QBC routes where there is a rail alternative, bus usage is still very high. I don't see line BXD making any real change to this.
I think the fact that bus usage along the Dart line is still high speaks volumes about the Dart service (as well as the population density and work patterns). If a train line is built and a good service provided, there's no reason for DB to provide a good bus service - it's a waste of money. Buses should be pulled from those areas and re-deployed as feeder buses or to other areas with less rail coverage.
Look at this map - if all the T21 components happen, the only area missing a decent rail service is Terenure. There's no reason for lots of buses to be heading to Phibsboro, Santry, Swords, Beaumont, Ballymun, Blanchardstown or anywhere near the Dart line.0 -
I think the fact that bus usage along the Dart line is still high speaks volumes about the Dart service (as well as the population density and work patterns). If a train line is built and a good service provided, there's no reason for DB to provide a good bus service - it's a waste of money. Buses should be pulled from those areas and re-deployed as feeder buses or to other areas with less rail coverage.
Look at this map - if all the T21 components happen, the only area missing a decent rail service is Terenure. There's no reason for lots of buses to be heading to Phibsboro, Santry, Swords, Beaumont, Ballymun, Blanchardstown or anywhere near the Dart line
With due respect stand any morning on Nassau Street and watch the loadings going out on routes 4, 4a and 7/a. They are huge. All those people are not going to fit onto the DART.
With the development of Pace more people will move to rail, but the Maynooth line itself is already chronically overloaded - are you suggesting that all the passengers on the buses coming from Blanchardstown are going to switch? Some will, but with passengers switching at Pace from outer areas I'm not sure that there will be huge capacity increases. The entire Corduff, Hartstown/Huntstown areas will still rely on the bus. That is not going to change.
Rail can deliver real benefits but it is not going to deliver a one-stop solution to all our transport needs. Bus and rail need to both be developed and the bus will still have a major role in Dublin. There are only so many feeder bus services that can be developed before you put strain on the capacity of the rail service.
You cannot say that Terenure is the only area not served by rail:
Each of the following areas are not served by a rail service:
Stillorgan QBC (from Leeson Street to Stillorgan Village)
Rathfarnham QBC (Entire)
Templeogue QBC (Rathmines to Tallaght Village & Firhouse/Knocklyon)
Lucan QBC (Heuston to Palmerstown/Liffey Valley)
Blanchardstown QBC (Corduff/Hartstown/Huntstown)
Finglas QBC (Phibsboro to Finglas)
Swords QBC (Whitehall to Santry)
Malahide Road QBC (Fairview to Kinsealy)
Those people using the QBCs are not going to disappear.
Fundamentally I am not seeing what line BXD is going to do to change any of this.0 -
With the development of Pace more people will move to rail, but the Maynooth line itself is already chronically overloaded - are you suggesting that all the passengers on the buses coming from Blanchardstown are going to switch? Some will, but with passengers switching at Pace from outer areas I'm not sure that there will be huge capacity increases. The entire Corduff, Hartstown/Huntstown areas will still rely on the bus. That is not going to change.
When Luas extensions, MN and Interconnector are complete people travelling from Pace will have many more options. They can stay on the train until Connelly, Pearse Street or all the way out to Bray, they can get off at Broombridge and take Luas into O'Connell Street or St Stephens Green or they can get off at Drumcondra and take MN north to airport/Swords or south to St Stephens Green. And thats just with one change, a second chage provides many more options. My point here is that a fully integrated and connected rail network with only five lines (2 Luas, 2 Dart, 1 Metro) is a much better option for city travel than having thousands of buses travelling over a hundred routes and clogging up the city.Rail can deliver real benefits but it is not going to deliver a one-stop solution to all our transport needs. Bus and rail need to both be developed and the bus will still have a major role in Dublin. There are only so many feeder bus services that can be developed before you put strain on the capacity of the rail service.
Fully agree with the above statement but rail and light rail are higher capacity, more reliable and more sustainable then bus transport and should be prioritised.Fundamentally I am not seeing what line BXD is going to do to change any of this.
Line BXD, in all honesty, is not going to make a huge difference to transport in Dublin. However it is another step in creating a fully functioning city wide rail network. It should be built as soon as possible, and should have been built before some of the other Luas extensions. I accept that not all areas can be served by rail and where rail is not possible buses are the only option. Buses can also be used as feeder and supplementary services for the rail services.0 -
Also, if trams end up on OCS and Marlborough St, where will the buses go ?
( for example the 15 route could not travel up Harcourt and now has to go down Hatch st )
So : Marlborough is narrow enough so that will not have buses on it ( especially during construction ) - so that's out.
Next easterly north-south axis ( Gardiner St ) would require buses to pass up Tara St being the nearest junction to OCS. If all the routes went here to drop off at Butt Bridge (which is one of the busiest commuter axes now that OCS is mostly blocked off for cars ) there will be massive congestion
Westerly there is no real axis ( Jervis St even if a bridge was built at that point is useless ) until Capel St which has been narrowed and has no buses.
So.... Nothing really until O'Donovan Rossa bridge which is just crayoning again.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »When Luas extensions, MN and Interconnector are complete people travelling from Pace will have many more options. They can stay on the train until Connelly, Pearse Street or all the way out to Bray, they can get off at Broombridge and take Luas into O'Connell Street or St Stephens Green or they can get off at Drumcondra and take MN north to airport/Swords or south to St Stephens Green. And thats just with one change, a second chage provides many more options. My point here is that a fully integrated and connected rail network with only five lines (2 Luas, 2 Dart, 1 Metro) is a much better option for city travel than having thousands of buses travelling over a hundred routes and clogging up the city.
I do not disagree with any of the fact that the expanded rail network through LUAS, DART and Metro will deliver a massive benefit. But there are limits on the capacity, especially on DART south of the river due to level crossings. There will still be a huge need for the bus service, and it is going to continue to deliver the majority of passenger journeys.
The network direct project at Dublin Bus is all about de-clogging the streets and delivering a far more efficient bus network.
I just do not think that the BXD option delivers any worthwhile benefits that the bus service will do - it is a case of huge upheaval for something that is not really needed.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Fully agree with the above statement but rail and light rail are higher capacity, more reliable and more sustainable then bus transport and should be prioritised.
Absolutely and that is why I support the Interconnector and Metro North, but I do not see that line BXD offers sufficient benefits in Dublin other than causing massive disruption to the city bus service and majority of transport users while benefitting far fewer people.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Line BXD, in all honesty, is not going to make a huge difference to transport in Dublin. However it is another step in creating a fully functioning city wide rail network. It should be built as soon as possible, and should have been built before some of the other Luas extensions. I accept that not all areas can be served by rail and where rail is not possible buses are the only option. Buses can also be used as feeder and supplementary services for the rail services.
There are only so many feeder services that can be provided before you start making people's journeys longer. Most of the list of QBC's above would not gain any improvement in journey time by utilising feeder buses.
There is a trade-off here and I am afraid that I do not see the value that BXD is delivering other than offering an alternative to Metro North at a huge cost when the bus service can do that far more cheaply and probably faster too.0
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