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Hillsborough revelations due today **SEE MOD NOTE POST #1**

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Comments

  • #52
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    It was a disaster waiting to happen, I can't link but youtube 'Hillsborough 1981 - Wolves v Tottenham Hotspur (FA CUP S/F)' and you'll see that death was only a matter of time.
    The family members of the victims were/are treated terribly and ultimate responsibility lies with the police.
    Fortunately, because of the disaster it simply won't happen again.
    Every cloud and all that thing.

    Indeed. A Manchester United fans talks about being crushed at Hillsborough the week before the FA Cup semi-final.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tH5V0uo6M8


  • #53
    dan185
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭dan185


    Today is looking like it's going to be massive. I hope it gets the ultimate media attention.

    Luke Traynor ‏@LTraynorMirror
    Being told revelations are monumental. Families have stood up and applauded the panel in cathedral

    that doesn't happen for nothing. I'm very optimistic.


  • #54
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    mitosis wrote: »
    My problem with this kind of campaign is that it won't be let lie until the campaigners get the truth they want to hear whether it is the actual truth or not.

    And, yes, I believe the fans hold a major part of blame for what happened - not individually but as a mob.

    yes i agree some of the LFC fans behaviour created the problems but a lot of answers need to be got by the victims families regarding action or lack of it etc. by the police, emergency services and stewards


  • #55
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    StephenHendry wrote: »
    yes i agree some of the LFC fans behaviour created the problems

    You can believe what you like but you're wrong. You're fully entitled to hold that opinion, but it's incorrect. The Taylor report has already confirmed that police's mismanagement of the crowd had been the prime cause of the disaster, together with serious safety deficiencies at the stadium itself and Sheffield city council's failure to oversee safety.

    Should you wish to read the report for yourself, you can do so here - http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/Taylor%20Interim%20Report.pdf


  • #56
    Klim
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭Klim


    super_furry wrote: »
    You can believe what you like but you're wrong. You're fully entitled to hold that opinion, but it's incorrect. The Taylor report has already confirmed that police's mismanagement of the crowd had been the prime cause of the disaster, together with serious safety deficiencies at the stadium itself and Sheffield city council's failure to oversee safety.

    Should you wish to read the report for yourself, you can do so here - http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/Taylor%20Interim%20Report.pdf

    Correct. And early leaks show that this report will fully back up that claim. Yet it will still not stop people spouting the same old myths forever more.

    Jim Boardman ‏@JimBoardman
    #HIP "Multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96. The fans were not responsible."


  • #57
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    The stadium itself which did not have a safety certificate was praised as being one of the best! Hillsborough along with Heysel, Ibrox (which did prompt a redevelopment the ground) and Bradford all have something - infrastructural shortcomings. The state of the game was at a very low point off the pitch. By the mid 80s places like Molineaux and Bradford were fit for demolition and certainly not fit for purpose and yet thousands were risking their health every week and yet even after the Bradford fire (1985) there was no wake up call (the fire was basically considered misfortune).

    The game was sick, it took Hillsborough and of all things the launch of BSkyB to prompt change for the better.


  • #58
    Opie
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Opie


    Roger Sterling wrote: »
    I didnt say they were comparble!!! Thats my whole point. The only one comparing them is you, which beautifully illustrates the point I was making. You couldn't help yourself.

    I feel you were comparing them by saying both sets of fans use them against each other. If i'm wrong then my bad, but my point is still valid. People should not group Munich/Heysel/Hillsborough together, as they are all very different tragedies. Today is an important day for the families of the victims, LFC, Liverpool as a cit and

    Your posts have a tone of snideness about them and if you have nothing interesting or valid to say about the Hillsborough tragedy, then why keep posting on it? I know its a public forum so you can post where you want, but still...


  • #59
    Melion
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,259 ✭✭✭✭Melion


    Why are people even entertaining flah/Roger? He has openly admitted to hating Liverpool as a club, city and people. He has no idea what he is waffling on about here and as usual, is just looking for a reaction.


  • #60
    Roger Sterling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 978 ✭✭✭Roger Sterling


    Opie wrote: »
    Roger Sterling wrote: »
    I didnt say they were comparble!!! Thats my whole point. The only one comparing them is you, which beautifully illustrates the point I was making. You couldn't help yobuurself.

    I feel you were comparing them by saying both sets of fans use them against each other. If i'm wrong then my bad, but my point is still valid. People should not group Munich/Heysel/Hillsborough together, as they are all very different tragedies. Today is an important day for the families of the victims, LFC, Liverpool as a cit and

    Your posts have a tone of snideness about them and if you have nothing interesting or valid to say about the Hillsborough tragedy, then why keep posting on it? I know its a public forum so you can post where you want, but still...
    Erm what have you added except to put words in my mouth?


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  • #61
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    I have to say I have found this thread to be quite educational- I have always known about the disaster, and with a step dad and step brother who are both fanatical supporters I get reminded of it loads.

    However, I was never aware of the specific details of the case. I really hope the friends and families of the deceased get the answers and peace they deserve.


  • #62
    Klim
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭Klim


    Roger Sterling wrote: »
    Erm what have you added except to put words in my mouth?

    Let's be honest here, you're here for one reason and one reason only. You can hide behind your faux-outrage that people who have no affliction with the club expressing grief at a tragedy is what really gets you, but when you come out with the bile like you have below, the emperors new clothes are there for all to see. It's absolutely pathetic.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80370774&postcount=3034


  • #63
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    The British police and establishment are very well protected. Since 1990, a staggering 1433 people have died following contact with police. How many officers have been convicted for manslaughter? None

    Its amazing that bloody sunday victims managed to get fair ruling, but look how long it took to get it.


  • #64
    Melion
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,259 ✭✭✭✭Melion


    For anyone who doesnt know what happened on that day(flah), this is a really good read

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730


  • #65
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    Jesus, how can people give out about who should and shouldn't be allowed to be outraged?
    it doesn't matter who you support, when you were born, where you come from.

    The avoidable loss of human life (particularly on this scale ans given the age profile of most of the people) is horrific and should be mourned. People should be outraged.

    The day people aren't outraged and horrified at something like this is the day the world should just implode on itself.


  • #66
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Mod

    Anymore mention of club alliances or bringing up things from sports forum will see you banned/ thread banned/ infracted etc.

    We care little here for your sport. The fact of the matter is a lot of people died, regardless of what colour they wore. People, people like your mam, dad, brothers,sisters.


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  • #67
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    The British police and establishment are very well protected. Since 1990, a staggering 1433 people have died following contact with police. How many officers have been convicted for manslaughter? None
    Its amazing that bloody sunday victims managed to get fair ruling, but look how long it took to get it.

    Pro rata, that's about the same as Ireland.


  • #68
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Statement now being read by PM David Cameron


  • #69
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Jaysus, that's pretty damning.


  • #70
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Every single 'opinion' or 'belief' that the fans were in anyway responsible has just been utterly destroyed.


  • #71
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    David Cameron: "Today's report is black and white - the Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster."


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  • #72
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    David Camerons statement is as good as one could possibly hope for.

    What's most notable is the criminal behaviour of the Coroners court. You simply would never expect such a body to act in such a fashion or maybe I'm naive.


  • #73
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    Melion wrote: »
    For anyone who doesnt know what happened on that day(flah), this is a really good read

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

    great article and insight into the tradgedy


  • #74
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    I wonder will they re-open the inquests after this?


  • #75
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    mike65 wrote: »
    David Camerons statement is as good as one could possibly hope for.

    What's most notable is the criminal behaviour of the Coroners court. You simply would never expect such a body to act in such a fashion or maybe I'm naive.

    Isn't it a political appointment? To me those kind of appointments are the most open to corruption and lack of capability.


  • #76
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    I take it the familys can sue the State and the Sun newspaper now


  • #77
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    I take it the familys can sue the State and the Sun newspaper now

    i think they would need to have the inquest verdict overturned so it is no longer "accidental death".


  • #78
    AEDIC
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭AEDIC


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    I take it the familys can sue the State and the Sun newspaper now


    I think The Scum newspaper should do the decent thing and make a full apology too.


  • #79
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    we've had something similar here with the stardust tradgedy, and hopefully something similar happens where the victims families can access all the evidence to answer the questions they have been looking for.
    it needs to happen. the fact that the victims of the hillsborough disaster have been given this opportunity today is very positive and long overdue.


  • #80
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    gatecrash wrote: »
    I wonder will they re-open the inquests after this?

    It has to be inevitable now. There can be no argument for them to remain closed after this.


  • #81
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    12:57pm
    It's clear that perhaps 59 victims of the Hillsborough tragedy might have been saved, as a result of new evidence.

    That's from the Sky news feed....

    God help the families today....


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  • #82
    Quorum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Quorum


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This is going to sound controversial, but you could make the argument that it was football fans' fault ultimately. The police wouldn't have needed to crack down so much, if there wasn't such a culture of violence that comes with soccer. Yes, the police messed up, but you can't deny they had numerous reasons to be as strict.

    Exactly, why were the barriers at the front of the stands erected in the first place? There was a reason. The main fault IMO was allowing too many people in. The barriers prevented people fleeing onto the pitch but, again, they were there for a reason.


  • #83
    summerskin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭summerskin


    I can't believe the police did background checks on the deceased in order to damage their character. Absolutely despicable.

    164 documents altered by the police, what a disgrace.


  • #84
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    summerskin wrote: »
    I can't believe the police did background checks on the deceased in order to damage their character. Absolutely despicable.

    164 documents altered by the police, what a disgrace.

    And yet it's not surprising. From the Birimingham Six to the Guildford Four, we have a clear understanding of the corruption of the British Police force.


  • #85
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Quorum wrote: »
    Exactly, why were the barriers at the front of the stands erected in the first place? There was a reason. The main fault IMO was allowing too many people in. The barriers prevented people fleeing onto the pitch but, again, they were there for a reason.

    The barriers were there because of the violence prevalent in football at the time. One of the big problems that I see throughout this saga was the use of the word fans to encompass both genuine supporters and football hooligans.


  • #86
    dan185
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭dan185


    So Liverpool fans are completely not to blame. I suggest those in the early posts of this thread that said that have a good think of what they posted. They're wrong, they've been proven wrong. Its taken 23 years but the truth is finally here.


  • #87
    Opie
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Opie


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The barriers were there because of the violence prevalent in football at the time. One of the big problems that I see throughout this saga was the use of the word fans to encompass both genuine supporters and football hooligans.

    There was no hooliganism at Hillsborough. It may have been a problem at the time, but there was no element of that at Hillsborough, so i dont see the need to talk about Hooligans in this case. Yes, that is why the barriers were there, but the cause of the deaths were down to diabolical policing, not fans.


  • #88
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The barriers were there because of the violence prevalent in football at the time. One of the big problems that I see throughout this saga was the use of the word fans to encompass both genuine supporters and football hooligans.

    Interestingly the Bradford City ground had no such pens and pitchside barriers on the main stand, they they were common but not universal. Had that fire happened in a barriered City ground then the death toll would have been massive.


  • #89
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Opie wrote: »
    There was no hooliganism at Hillsborough. It may have been a problem at the time, but there was no element of that at Hillsborough, so i dont see the need to talk about Hooligans in this case. Yes, that is why the barriers were there, but the cause of the deaths were down to diabolical policing, not fans.

    So the stadium design had nothing to do with it? And the adversarial relationship between police and "fans" had no part? I think you'll find you are mistaken. While it's true the policing decisions made were the primary cause you cannot ignore the rest of the factors that contributed to the situation.


  • #90
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,397 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    Roger Sterling wrote: »
    You don't have to accept my views but you do have to accept my right to air them . Im glad to see Im not alone anyway and its refreshing to have an intelligent discussion on the matter outside the tribal context of the SF.


    Involving you Adolf....really?


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  • #91
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    MagicSean wrote: »
    So the stadium design had nothing to do with it? And the adversarial relationship between police and "fans" had no part? I think you'll find you are mistaken. While it's true the policing decisions made were the primary cause you cannot ignore the rest of the factors that contributed to the situation.

    It's unusual for you to speak up for the police force MagicSean..........


  • #92
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    mikom wrote: »
    It's unusual for you to speak up for the police force MagicSean..........

    I've no interest in getting into one of your personal battles Mikom.

    Where have I spoken up for the South Yorkshire Police? Please point it out. I clearly stated that the policing was the main cause. Would you like me to quote it for you?

    But it wasn't the only thing. The stadium design was not suitable for the large crowds. The barriers that were placed because of fear of hooliganism made the place even more dangerous. To ignore these facts is to do a dis-service to those who died by not learning from them.


  • #93
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    mike65 wrote: »
    MagicSean wrote: »
    The barriers were there because of the violence prevalent in football at the time. One of the big problems that I see throughout this saga was the use of the word fans to encompass both genuine supporters and football hooligans.
    Interestingly the Bradford City ground had no such pens and pitchside barriers on the main stand, they they were common but not universal. Had that fire happened in a barriered City ground then the death toll would have been massive.

    Wasn't the stand at Bradford mainly seating though, as opposed to terracing?


  • #94
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    As one MP just said '' a monumental cover up by those who tried to push blame on the fans and also to spear the deceased ,their family's and the people of Liverpool '' .

    It's been a long campaign for the justice for Hillsborough group and great to see the truth come out at last and acknowledged as such by David Cameron ,Ed Milliband and the British government.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964


  • #95
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Wasn't the stand at Bradford mainly seating though, as opposed to terracing?

    Yep made out of wood:(


  • #96
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    MagicSean wrote: »
    I've no interest in getting into one of your personal battles Mikom.

    Where have I spoken up for the South Yorkshire Police? Please point it out. I clearly stated that the policing was the main cause. Would you like me to quote it for you?

    But it wasn't the only thing. The stadium design was not suitable for the large crowds. The barriers that were placed because of fear of hooliganism made the place even more dangerous. To ignore these facts is to do a dis-service to those who died by not learning from them.

    I find it distasteful how you've sought to change the terms of the discussion here over the course of the morning. You start by claiming -

    "To me the whole thing boils down to

    -Badly designed stadium (due to culture of football violence)
    -Poorly organised police and stewards (down to poor communication)
    -Poor decision making by police management and event organiser
    -Badly behaved crowd outside the grounds (and reportedly some inside too)"

    The bolded one is the most pertinant because it was the most contentious of your claims and more importantly one that has been proven to be blatantly wrong. To quote David Cameron again - "Today's report is black and white - the Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster."

    Now that we have seen that enshrined as an inarguable fact, you appear to be seeking to find a new angle to lay the blame at the feet of the victims. Your contribution to the discussion has been to move from blaming "drunken morons" to a more subtle but no less consistant blaming of fans.

    Again, the Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster.


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  • #97
    Quorum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Quorum


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The barriers were there because of the violence prevalent in football at the time. One of the big problems that I see throughout this saga was the use of the word fans to encompass both genuine supporters and football hooligans.

    Yeah, and that's unfair. But the way I would look at it is isn't it a shame that the small minority who were hooligans necessitated the erection of these barriers?


  • #98
    Quorum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Quorum


    Opie wrote: »
    There was no hooliganism at Hillsborough. It may have been a problem at the time, but there was no element of that at Hillsborough

    If teams were coming in from all over the country, can you honestly say there was never any hooliganism?


  • #99
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Quorum wrote: »
    If teams were coming in from all over the country, can you honestly say there was never any hooliganism?

    :confused:


  • #100
    Quorum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Quorum


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    :confused:

    Different teams, with different sets of supporters.


  • #101
    danniemcq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    I'm amazed at the amount of people on this thread who are of the opinion that if you weren't there then you have no right to feel affected by the matter.

    how many people here have signed books of condolances for someone they never met, how many have posted on tribute pages or threads either here on boards or on facebook or anywhere else. How many people have thought about the September 11 attacks?

    just because you weren't there on the day doesn't mean you aren't allowed to give you 2c on the matter, be it changing your sig to JFT96 linking to any of the support sites or charities or changing a profile picture.

    I wasn't there that day, i personally don't know anyone that was but like an above poster said every anniversary i get shivers, if someone on facebook defriended me just because i showed my support for a cause i believe in then you truely aren't a friend i want to have.

    I know a lot of people follow everything they read in certain rags and i hope the reports that have come out so far today never mind the next few days will open their eyes. An awful lot of people covered up the truth but thanks the the supoprt the campaigns have got and the knowledge that the smear campain was bullcrap will hopefully mean that those respsonsable will get what they deserve.

    JFT96


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