Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

corktina · 21-01-2014 2:37pm

At Straws Clutching....

sonnyblack · 21-01-2014 2:49pm

westtip wrote: »

Mayo coco have refused to accept the views of nearly 300 submissions on the new county plan asking for a greenway. Instead the county council have come up with this latest idea:

I quote from the amended county plan: - page 53 of the amended draft county plan which can be read in full at this link and downloaded as a .pdf from here: http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Planning/DraftMayoCountyDevelopmentPlan2014-2020/Document2,23438,en.pdf

This is definitely the finer art of can kicking down the road. The idea of a velo-rail has come from the local Kiltimagh IRD development company - some of whom are....guess what members and supporters of west on track ...are you following the story...

If they get this idea written into tablets of stone in the County Development plan, it then becomes council policy until 2020. This will effectively kill off any "loose talk" as one councillor described the idea of a greenway.

Irish Rail supports greenways on old routes...so we can guess where this idea is going to go.

so what on earth is velo-rail - and why do West on Track support this idea..

Velo-Rail is an interesting idea, and can only be operated on safe secure well maintained existing railway lines. I doubt there is a one kilometre stretch of the Western Rail Corridor that currently fulfils the health and safety requirements needed for velo-rail; for want of a better description it is a four wheeled cycle system placed on the line that people then use cycle power to go up and down the line. Just google it or look at this link https://www.google.ie/search?q=velo+rail&espv=210&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3lXeUsHnFov07Abw7YCQDA&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643 the work involved to get the WRC back to the standard of safety needed for this kind of operation would be huge and very very expensive.

It's not going to happen...and when central government says not...it will give the naysayers another chance to say the wesht is doomed and the D4 economists won't let us have what truly would be a toy railway....

So where do we go from here - Well the sligo mayo greenway campaign - was not entirely surprised by the spineless way in which MCC has handled this matter....and are asking supporters to once again start emailing the council and making further submissions on the county plan.

If you want to apply more public pressure on MCC then the simple thing to do is take action the key email address is forwardplanning@mayococo.ie

You have to give your name and address and submissions need to be in by February 13th to let them know what you think of their velorail idea and ask them why they have ignored nearly 300 submissions. All the detail can be found on the Mayo coco web site here

http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Planning/DraftMayoCountyDevelopmentPlan2014-2020/

Hey ho ... Don't ya just love it.

It would appear that the Greenway idea is as dead as the railway extension. Stalemate at this stage. Nothing to happen on the unused section any time soon it seems

freyners · 21-01-2014 2:59pm

westtip wrote:

I think I will send a copy to the Galway councillors! Can you imagine the outcry if having spent €105 million on railway to carry an average of 8 passengers per train, the country then spent double that on a cost per mile basis (plus factoring up for inflation) to re-open another white elephant - these councillors are only making fools of themselves by continuing with this kind of rhetoric.

Genuinely interested where you get the 8 passengers per train figure. I use the Limerick Galway line semi regularly from Limerick to Athenry and any time I use it would have far more than that on it. I do use it friday/Sat/Sun so that could be a factor

corktina · 21-01-2014 3:01pm

Irish Rails own figures is the source.

freyners · 21-01-2014 3:03pm

corktina wrote: »

Irish Rails own figures is the source.

Cheers, just wondering is all. It seems to have got a bit more traction in terms of passengers lately, saying that the amount of passengers wouldnt remotely come close to other intercity lines.

westtip · 21-01-2014 3:11pm

corktina wrote: »

At Straws Clutching....

The greenway campaign or WOT, probably both, isn't it just the classic kick the can down the road exercise though. The councils need to be taken out of the decision making process on any issues of national infrastructure, be it rail, road, greenway, fibre optic or public toilets.....they are incapable of making decisions, they have no money, and apart from administration of social housing subvention to a greater or lesser degree have become a very expensive irrelevance.

Yes it seems this comment is becoming the way we are:

sonnyblack wrote: »

It would appear that the Greenway idea is as dead as the railway extension. Stalemate at this stage. Nothing to happen on the unused section any time soon it seems

...although this is not quite true, as the greenway campaigners do apparently have the ear and support of those who matter - Alan Kelly and Leo Varadkar, but they too are becoming guilty of fence sitting. As far as the railway enthusiasts are concerned nothing happening is a bette result than providing jobs in the region through the economic activity a greenway would bring.

sonnyblack · 21-01-2014 3:25pm

corktina wrote: »

Irish Rails own figures is the source.

Have there been any Irish Rail figures released since the advent of on-line ticketing and IR dropping their inflated prices. Has it made any difference to the amount of people using the train I wonder?

corktina · 21-01-2014 5:09pm

their prices weren't inflated seeing as the line was making a huge loss each year! Now with them reduced, they will need to almost double the passenger figure to stand still!

freyners · 21-01-2014 5:16pm

corktina wrote: »

their prices weren't inflated seeing as the line was making a huge loss each year! Now with them reduced, they will need to almost double the passenger figure to stand still!

In fairness the prices were sky high, to try and book my usual ticket was 34.60 at one stage, no way would anyone pay that. Its down to a more reasonable level now, when the new figures come out we will see if its had a positive net result but in my experience, the numbers seem to be increasing, at least on the trians I take which are probably the most popular ones for students going to and from college

corktina · 21-01-2014 5:28pm

sky high because of the cost of this white elephant but I would dispute "inflated" as they do not cover the cost of providing the service and if anything are therefore under-inflated!

freyners · 21-01-2014 5:31pm

corktina wrote: »

sky high because of the cost of this white elephant but I would dispute "inflated" as they do not cover the cost of providing the service and if anything are therefore under-inflated!

True but if you price it double the competition what hope does it have. At least with the new pricing there might be an uptake on the use of the line that will out weigh the reduction of prices and more of the costs will be recovered.

corktina · 21-01-2014 6:16pm

maybe....we'll see I guess!

freyners · 21-01-2014 8:26pm

corktina wrote: »

maybe....we'll see I guess!

ITs worth a shot is what im saying. Unfortunately the thing in all honesty should never have been built and was based on shoddy information that was very selectively framed. The cost of relaying the line cannot be recouped. IE might as well try to make it somewhat useful. Who knows, if the new ticketing works then we might see the line slowly cover the distance between its costs and its income. It might just as easily make things worse. But what was in operation was clearly not working. Ill try to remember what is on the train the next few times i take it and post here.

sheff the ref · 21-01-2014 8:39pm

If they were serious about increasing footfall on this line, they would run a spur line (even overhead) for the couple of miles from Sixmilebridge to Shannon airport. They would also have stop off platforms at Long Pavement for LIT/Thomond Park and on the Dublin Road for UL.

westtip · 21-01-2014 9:07pm

sheff the ref wrote: »

If they were serious about increasing footfall on this line, they would run a spur line (even overhead) for the couple of miles from Sixmilebridge to Shannon airport. They would also have stop off platforms at Long Pavement for LIT/Thomond Park and on the Dublin Road for UL.

No sorry you have missed the point if they were serious about this line and rail travel in general they would have built an entirely new line along a new route, the whole reason this WRC is destined to fail from day one is the fixation with using the old rail alignment, this is the crux of the problem with West on Track, they should have campaigned for a new railway the whole time not to re-open a C19th route that was never going to deliver. A new route would of course gone direct to Shannon and take a direct route to Galway from Gort, not in an and out of Athenry. And this is why the insistence even now after the failure of phase one to "re-open" the old route is one steeped in the objective to fail from day one. I have been harping on for a greenway for years, along the old route, but a new route for the railway, integrated with a new route for the n17/n18 then yes - why not. This is the failure of WOT -Seeking to fail from day one.

sheff the ref · 21-01-2014 9:13pm

Valid point. How would costs have compared?

westtip wrote: »

No sorry you have missed the point if they were serious about this line and rail travel in general they would have built an entirely new line along a new route, the whole reason this WRC is destined to fail from day one is the fixation with using the old rail alignment, this is the crux of the problem with West on Track, they should have campaigned for a new railway the whole time not to re-open a C19th route that was never going to deliver. A new route would of course gone direct to Shannon and take a direct route to Galway from Gort, not in an and out of Athenry. And this is why the insistence even now after the failure of phase one to "re-open" the old route is one steeped in the objective to fail from day one. I have been harping on for a greenway for years, along the old route, but a new route for the railway, integrated with a new route for the n17/n18 then yes - why not. This is the failure of WOT -Seeking to fail from day one.

monument · 21-01-2014 10:33pm

westtip wrote: »

No sorry you have missed the point if they were serious about this line and rail travel in general they would have built an entirely new line along a new route, the whole reason this WRC is destined to fail from day one is the fixation with using the old rail alignment, this is the crux of the problem with West on Track, they should have campaigned for a new railway the whole time not to re-open a C19th route that was never going to deliver. A new route would of course gone direct to Shannon and take a direct route to Galway from Gort, not in an and out of Athenry. And this is why the insistence even now after the failure of phase one to "re-open" the old route is one steeped in the objective to fail from day one. I have been harping on for a greenway for years, along the old route, but a new route for the railway, integrated with a new route for the n17/n18 then yes - why not. This is the failure of WOT -Seeking to fail from day one.

It's fair to say that the northern sections of the WRC would be crazy to open as a new railway, but, as I understand it, the current section's design issues could have been overcome by building on pritty much the same alignment but to a higher spec (less level crossings etc).

Grandeeod · 21-01-2014 11:06pm

monument wrote: »

It's fair to say that the northern sections of the WRC would be crazy to open as a new railway, but, as I understand it, the current section's design issues could have been overcome by building on pritty much the same alignment but to a higher spec (less level crossings etc).

That argument applies to all of it. Old news. The entire alignment isn't worth ****. It was never built to do what its expected to do now and what its supporters believe it should do. Old trainspotters wet dream and newbie trainspotters reality. FACT! Once we get beyond that bit, we can seriously discuss the matter. Offensive stuff, for what its worth, is a stumbling block to real economic debate on the subject, because what Boards.ie considers offensive via policy and reported posts continues to stifle real debate.

The only people still supporting the reopening of the WRC are some enthusiasts, local politicians and WOT. Unfortunately the rest of us are stepping on toes mentioning anything else and subject to being reported here on boards.

westtip · 21-01-2014 11:46pm

sheff the ref wrote: »

Valid point. How would costs have compared?

Not the issue, it would have cost more because of land purchases. WOT were sold a pup by a government that just wanted to get them off their backs and be "seen to deliver" but delivering sh*te is not worth a sh*te. WOT thought they were achieving something marvelous, but the alignment was always the problem - and is even more of an issue further north on the line. The simple truth is a trainline is not really needed along the western seaboard linking moderately sized towns like Sligo, Galway and Limerick, spare me the city status, they are at best large towns (Galway/Limerick) and moderate sized town in Sligo and not a lot of population inbetween. Of course these are the realities of the new TEN-T transport policy/strategy of the EU which is why the WRC was not included in that important transport plan by the EU, why they won't get EU funding and why they won't ever re-open anymore of the WRC north of Athenry. In Mayo of course the CC is now going looking for money for a real toy train set. It's all mind boggling and plain stupid to even consider.

westtip · 22-01-2014 5:46pm

The Mayo planning managers report - which is not on the Mayo coco website as apparently they are not legally obliged to disclose the report on the website has become available in .pdf format following a request from a member of the public.

It is attached and makes interesting reading - apparently the reason the county planning manager ignored the greenway request, is that it was felt a greenway would interfere with the Regional Planning Guidelines (RPGs) which clearly state the aim of (LOL

) restoring the WRC all the way to Sligo. The planning manager then went on to recommend that Velo-Rail should be investigated - I'm not sure how Velo-Rail will make any difference to the railway re-opening - Velo rail could have been run on the light railway infrastructure that existed 40 year ago but could not be run now on a railway line that has been untouched for all of that time in terms of maintenance.

The submissions make interesting reading and come from all quarters.

But this is the kind of thinking we have in the planning section at Mayo coco

Although disused, the Western Rail Corridor (WRC) is owned by Iarnrod Eireann and constitutes a potentially highly sustainable and strategically important item of public transport infrastructure for County Mayo and other counties through which it runs, The County Development Plan is required to be consistent with national and regional policy as set out in the NSS and the RPGs and also with other national policy documents such as Smarter Travel, A Sustainable Transport Future (DoT). In this context it is clear that the re-opening of the WRC is of strategic importance for the growth and development of Mayo

Where has this county planner been for the past four years!!! doesn't he/she know about the failure of phase one of the WRC????

Take a look and have a chuckle!!!

Look forward to comments!

serfboard · 22-01-2014 6:46pm

This is absolutely hilarious, the little bit I've read. Here's one gem:

Minister Varadkar has made it explicitly clear in a statement (18/12/12) that the WRC can be considered for funding in the next Capital Programme along with other projects such as Metro North or Dart Underground.

And then they helpfully include the statement:

Minister's Office wrote:

in response to a suggestion from Frank McDonald that the Minister should announce that the WRC will go no further than Tuam, Minister Varadkar responded that there were no funds to extend the line to Tuam this side of 2016 as it is not in the Capital Programme but he obviously couldn't say what would be in the post-2016 programme.

Yeah that's "explicity clear" alright. :rolleyes:

westtip · 22-01-2014 7:25pm

Serf Thanks for pulling out those gems re Varadkar, its not always possible to see everything the quotes you have pulled out, mind you in fairness to MCC they are not comments made by the council but made on the submission by West on Track - The sniping at Frank McDonald in their submission was hilarious and clearly West on Track must have had access to the press release and coverage of Varadkars email to the greenway group last June - the press release on this is attached. Perhaps Mayo Coco didn't read what Leo had to say!

I reckon this is explicitly clear from that email Varadkar wrote and signed with his ministerial electronic pen.

“the Government has no plans to extend the western rail corridor nor any other heavy rail line in the state”

or try this one

“We do not have the funds [and] our priority is to keep the existing lines open.”

or this one all from the same email sent from Leo Varadkar to the SMG campaign

“With regard to greenways, my Department and its agencies are very supportive of greenways.”

eastwest · 24-01-2014 9:54am

That manager's report, long and wandering though it might be, makes fascinating reading. The devil is in the detail, and the detail tells us a lot.
Despite multiple submissions favouring the protection of the rail route by means of a greenway, County Hall decided to completely ignore the term 'protection of the route' and zone in on the hated word 'greenway'. They decided instead to recommend support for a single submission that wanted to 'protect' a mile or so of the route by allowing a single operator to run a business on it.
So, they ignore multiple submissions that would have created an amenity for the benefit of tens of thousands if people, as well as potentially creating hundreds of jobs, in favour of a small local project that will benefit one person and will incur cost for anyone else who wants to use it. The pro-people proposal, if I might call it that, would protect the entire route; the 'pro one businessman' proposal would protect a mile of it.
There is no doubt that the so-called democratic county council in mayo is completely in thrall to a small, fanatical lobby group whose policies are out of line with government and EU transport policy. Even worse, they are prepared to almost unanimously take the side of one businessman against the interests of the citizenry.
People in places like Swinford and Charlestown must feel that they are in the very lowest tier of representation at county hall. If I lived in either place I would feel very aggrieved indeed.

eastwest · 24-01-2014 10:38am

In the interests of transparency, the details of the proposed operator of this velo rail project need to be out in the open. Of course it won't be any businessman associated with West on Track, that would be too much of a coincidence. ;-)

westtip · 24-01-2014 11:22am

Its the fact that MCC have just dismissed the idea of the greenway that is baffling when Irish Rail clearly accepts it is an idea that works to protect routes - as mentioned by Barry Kenny last year on The Right Hook in August. The attached press release has just gone out from the Greenway group. Here are the headlines from that press release:

Press release: Immediate release. Date: January 25th 2014
From: Sligo Mayo Greenway campaign:
Ireland West Airport Knock has no problems with Greenway on Western Rail Corridor until Railway is affordable. Mayo County Council will not accept this.
• Sligo Mayo Greenway campaign secures copy of Planners report on submissions withheld from Mayo council website
• 287 submissions to Mayo County Council ask for greenway on old railway
• Greenway campaign welcomes Ireland West Airport Knock support for a greenway being built on Western Rail Corridor until a railway possible
• Senator Fergal Quinn said it is “grotesque” to see this wasted opportunity
• Mayo County council recommends socially exclusive option to privatise route and block its use for county residents on a daily basis.

hardCopy · 24-01-2014 11:44am

I just Googled velo-rail. What an absolutely moronic invention. As useful as a chocolate tea-pot.

sonnyblack · 24-01-2014 12:36pm

I hate to be pouring cold water on the valiant efforts of the Sligo Mayo Greenway people but surely it is correct to say that if the County Councillors and the County councils are against the greenway then it simply can't happen.
They have the power to make the final decision to support it or not. Varadkar will be unlikely to get involved in a local issue while they are against it in my opinion. It would take a sea change in local politics and all the councillors to be swept from office in May to see any change in attitude. This is unlikely to happen i would have thought as these these councillers are established figures working for their constituents on all local matters.
Unfortunately I can't see anything other than stalemate on this item.

The next talking point will be the publication of the Irish Rail figures on the current line following the online booking and fare dropping last year

eastwest · 24-01-2014 12:40pm

hardCopy wrote: »

I just Googled velo-rail. What an absolutely moronic invention. As useful as a chocolate tea-pot.

Velo rail has a few merits as a single attraction that will generate profits for an operator, as long as that operator doesn't have to foot the costs of the railway that will have to be built to carry it. It excludes anyone who can't afford to pay fifty quid to hire one of the contraptions for an hour, unlike a greenway which costs you nothing if you own a bike or like to walk.
The money involved in restoring a couple of kilometres of track to suit this one business would build a greenway on the entire Claremorris - Colloney route, providing an amenity for tens of thousands of people and creating hundreds of jobs. So, agsinst all logic the council opts for the former; why, what is going on?
The simple answer is that the velo rail project appears to be a WOT supported ploy to block a greenway and to con the government into funding a short section of railway on this route. Will it work? Unlikely, given pronouncements from Varadkar, Kelly and others of late. A railway dressed up as a 'velo rail project' will fool nobody. Except mayo county councillors obviously.

corktina · 24-01-2014 12:42pm

Stalemate at the moment but those councillors are answerable to the electorate and an on-going campaign to win the hearts and minds of the voters can change the situation. Ultimately politicians will be swayed by where the votes are, in the past they have perceived this to be with a re-opened railway, whereas in reality (as shown by the figures further south) few people actually want this.

eastwest · 24-01-2014 12:48pm

corktina wrote: »

Stalemate at the moment but those councillors are answerable to the electorate and an on-going campaign to win the hearts and minds of the voters can change the situation. Ultimately politicians will be swayed by where the votes are, in the past they have perceived this to be with a re-opened railway, whereas in reality (as shown by the figures further south) few people actually want this.

That's it, in a nutshell.
Plus the fact that councillors largely don't understand the concept of cycling tourism; these are a subset that considers anyone on a bicycle as just someone who can't afford a car.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Comments