Staff giving away free food

paska · 19-07-2015 10:12pm #1

I have a staff member giving free coffee to his friend and not putting it through the til. i also have the same man on video making food for himself and taking it into the back kitchen to eat it.

I need to fire this person because it's not just once it's almost every shift. What is my next step? does anyone have a link to help me with the disciplinary procedure for how to tell the person about the first step to the potential outcome

Into The Blue · 19-07-2015 10:13pm

paska wrote: »

I have a staff member giving free coffee to his friend and not putting it through the til. i also have the same man on video making food for himself and taking it into the back kitchen to eat it.

I need to fire this person because it's not just once it's almost every shift. What is my next step? does anyone have a link to help me with the disciplinary procedure for how to tell the person about the first step to the potential outcome

Just a warning will do

aimee1 · 19-07-2015 10:14pm

paska wrote: »

I have a staff member giving free coffee to his friend and not putting it through the til. i also have the same man on video making food for himself and taking it into the back kitchen to eat it.

I need to fire this person because it's not just once it's almost every shift. What is my next step? does anyone have a link to help me with the disciplinary procedure for how to tell the person about the first step to the potential outcome

issue an invoice for the food/coffee

NicoleW85 · 19-07-2015 10:20pm

You need to give 2 verbal warnings and 1 written warning AFAIK. 4th grievance = show him the door!

Fiskar · 19-07-2015 10:51pm

OP, you have to be clear to the employee that the CCTV is for purposes of security and not for monitoring staff. In reviewing the footage you came across this situation and you want it to stop, or else the employee can make it difficult for you under the Data Protection Act.

Laoislion8383 · 19-07-2015 10:55pm

You can't tell him u were using the CCTV to watch staff like somebody has already said, but what he has being doing is stealing and therefore you can sack him on the spot without the two verbal and written warning because stealing is classed as gross misconduct.

NicoleW85 · 19-07-2015 11:08pm

Sorry to hijack this post, but it jogged my memory on an issue a friend had recently with his employee. This guy is a delivery driver and handles money from customers (obviously at one stage he proved he could be trusted), then returns money to the office for banking. Last week he took Ã¢Â‚Â¬100 from the money he collected as an advance on his wages and when he got to the office he informed my friend he had done this and that he would pay it back. What disciplinary procedures would that behaviour require? Thanks and sorry again!

paska · 19-07-2015 11:16pm

This employee was reported by another member of staff. the video was used to back up the allegations which proved to be true

paska · 19-07-2015 11:17pm

Into The Blue wrote: »

Just a warning will do

Why?

paska · 19-07-2015 11:19pm

NicoleW85 wrote: »

You need to give 2 verbal warnings and 1 written warning AFAIK. 4th grievance = show him the door!

Maybe I should call the guards and dispense with this nonsense

NicoleW85 · 19-07-2015 11:20pm

paska wrote:

This employee was reported by another member of staff. the video was used to back up the allegations which proved to be true

In that context it's fair game. I'm assuming now that's grounds for instant dismissal?

monkeysnapper · 19-07-2015 11:29pm

Did you have a contract for this employee to sign . Nearly every job I've ever worked there was a handbook of rules and conditions and the outcome should any of these rules be broken .

MarkAnthony · 19-07-2015 11:40pm

Jesus threads like these are a great example of why advice of this nature should not be sought on the internet.

Firstly you need to have a fair investigatory hearing with the employee, ask them what the story is, show them the CCTV. CCTV can be used to detect staff theft - that's by definition a security issue.

Once you've done that you will need to prepare a disciplinary hearing proper. You'll need to prepare a file for the employee - give them time to study it and prepare a defence. The employee will be allowed someone to accompany them to the hearing and will be allowed to cross examine witnesses.

Ideally you need to hand it off at this stage - do you work for a chain? If so another store manager should be brought in to run the hearing and make the decision on what action needs to be taken. You need to keep the employee informed of what the possible outcomes are. If a possible outcome is dismissal you may need to consider allowing the employee solicitor to be present - it would be wise to have yours there too or a HR rep if you're in a chain.

If you're asking what to do here you are ill prepared to carry out the process. If you're a chain what the hell are they doing letting managers in without training - if you're running your own business you need to get on to a solicitor or contract a HR consultant.

It's very easy to end up at EAT and very, very easy to breach fair procedures. If you're going to take the risk simply dismiss them out of hand and bear the consequences. You're on firmer ground if the employee has been there less than a year.

NicoleW85 · 19-07-2015 11:43pm

Pardon me, your honour.
I'll return to my corner.
Night everyone and all the best with your 'proceedings'.

obplayer · 19-07-2015 11:50pm

paska wrote: »

I have a staff member giving free coffee to his friend and not putting it through the til. i also have the same man on video making food for himself and taking it into the back kitchen to eat it.

I need to fire this person because it's not just once it's almost every shift. What is my next step? does anyone have a link to help me with the disciplinary procedure for how to tell the person about the first step to the potential outcome

Have you ever warned him / her about this? How long has it being going on?

drunkmonkey · 19-07-2015 11:54pm

Thats theft, gross misconduct, fire his ass straight away. He's probably robbing more than you can see. At the very least suspend him straight away without pay while your conducting an investigation.
Talk to your solicitor, he may suggest you call the Garda and have him done for theft.
If he's there a long time sit him down if he's still under 9mts just tell him he's been let go you don't even need to tell him why.

MarkAnthony · 19-07-2015 11:57pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Thats theft, gross misconduct, fire his ass straight away. He's probably robbing more than you can see. At the very least suspend him straight away without pay while your conducting an investigation.
Talk to your solicitor, he may suggest you call the Garda and have him done for theft.
If he's there a long time sit him down if he's still under 9mts just tell him he's been let go you don't even need to tell him why.

Gross misconduct still requires a hearing otherwise everything you're doing is a breach of fair procedures and that alone will land you at EAT.

If you're going to suspend a staff member, which is probably best, it will have to be with pay while the matter is resolved.

OP the one piece of advice I would be taking from the above and the thread is seek proper advice from a professional. There's nothing that will attract more barrack room lawyers than employment law.

obplayer · 19-07-2015 11:59pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Thats theft, gross misconduct, fire his ass straight away. He's probably robbing more than you can see. At the very least suspend him straight away without pay while your conducting an investigation.
Talk to your solicitor, he may suggest you call the Garda and have him done for theft.
If he's there a long time sit him down if he's still under 9mts just tell him he's been let go you don't even need to tell him why.

Nice idea but legally it doesn't work like that. There are legal procedures to be followed and one of this persons first defences will be "but no one told me not to do it". Solicitors make their living over such niceties.

daRobot · 19-07-2015 11:59pm

This is a nothing problem to be honest.

The coffee is costing you almost nothing, and his friend may not even come in for it had it not been given for free, so don't assume a lost sale.

As for making himself some food for his lunch, which again is not a big cost to you in any way. Well strike the man down dead....

These are small little absuses that many workers will carry out, and if that's as bad as it gets, then you're doing well.

Just have a simple word with him if it's bothering you so much.

drunkmonkey · 20-07-2015 12:03am

No time for playing soft with theft. He's well within his rights to call the Gardaí on him. I've had legal advice on this before. No need for verbal or written warnings in this case, contract or no contract your man is stealing from his employer end of story.

duffman13 · 20-07-2015 12:04am

Have you got a disciplinary procedure in place? Has the employee signed security rules?

If no, I'd have a formal conversation with a note taker. Give 24 notice of investigation and the option of a witness. Perform an investigation, and issue a final written warning. Anything else less you would be open for a claim.

Edit: MarkAnthony nailed it above. Better to be safe than sorry

Triangla · 20-07-2015 12:05am

daRobot wrote: »

This is a nothing problem to be honest.

The coffee is costing you almost nothing, and his friend may not even come in for it had it not been given for free, so don't assume a lost sale.

As for making himself some food for his lunch, which again is not a big cost to you in any way. Well strike the man down dead....

These are small little absuses that many workers will carry out, and if that's as bad as it gets, then you're doing well.

Just have a simple word with him if it's bothering you so much.

I worked in shops during college and would have assumed I'd be shown the door for any of the things listed by the op.

The above comment astounds me.

Graham · 20-07-2015 12:06am

daRobot wrote: »

This is a nothing problem to be honest.

What is the limit on staff theft before it becomes a problem? €2.50 for coffee, €7 for lunch, €15 for dinner, €25 cab fare for the trip home, a weekend away because it's been a tough week?

Tony Beetroot · 20-07-2015 12:07am

I would consult with a solicitor at this stage.

duffman13 · 20-07-2015 12:07am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No time for playing soft with theft. He's well within his rights to call the Gardaí on him. I've had legal advice on this before. No need for verbal or written warnings in this case, contract or no contract your man is stealing from his employer end of story.

This is horrendous advice, have you ever been to a tribunal? That kind of advice could quickly lead to a 5 figure settlement for the staff member

MarkAnthony · 20-07-2015 12:07am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No time for playing soft with theft. He's well within his rights to call the Gardaí on him. I've had legal advice on this before. No need for verbal or written warnings in this case, contract or no contract your man is stealing from his employer end of story.

Defacto contracts exist so that's not an issue.

You're quite correct in stating that warning 'levels' can be skipped, what can't be skipped is the investigation which leads me on too...

duffman13 wrote: »

Have you got a disciplinary procedure in place? Has the employee signed security rules?

If no I'd have a formal conversation with a note taker. Give 24 notice of investigation and the option of a witness. Perform an investigation, and issue a final written warning. Anything else less you would be open for a claim.

... you can't prejudge the outcome of a hearing. That leaves you open to a claim also. Very unlikely in the event of a final warning as opposed to being fired of course but best practice and all that.

obplayer · 20-07-2015 12:07am

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Gross misconduct still requires a hearing otherwise everything you're doing is a breach of fair procedures and that alone will land you at EAT.

If you're going to suspend a staff member, which is probably best, it will have to be with pay while the matter is resolved.

OP the one piece of advice I would be taking from the above and the thread is seek proper advice from a professional. There's nothing that will attract more barrack room lawyers than employment law.

If I could give a thousand thanks to this I would, it is the best advice given on this thread. Speak to a professional please.

MarkAnthony · 20-07-2015 12:10am

obplayer wrote: »

If I could give a thousand thanks to this I would, it is the best advice given on this thread. Speak to a professional please.

Quite the BRL myself tbh! I know enough to know I know very little though - thankfully!

duffman13 · 20-07-2015 12:11am

MarkAnthony wrote: »

... you can't prejudge the outcome of a hearing. That leaves you open to a claim also. Very unlikely in the event of a final warning as opposed to being fired of course but best practice and all that.

Spot on, I'm aware of that but if he or hopefully another manager is presented with the evidence as listed by the OP it would warrant a warning. Usually when I do these I'm not judge and jury ie other manager passes the disciplinary stage to me or vice versa

obplayer · 20-07-2015 12:13am

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Quite the BRL myself tbh! I know enough to know I know very little though - thankfully!

Me too, I have run a small team in a supermarket so I have an idea what is involved.

But what is a BRL?

Got it!

drunkmonkey · 20-07-2015 12:13am

Suspend this guy in the morning first thing regardless of what other people are advising. I'm speaking as an employer that's been down this road a few times.
Don't wait for him to turn up just call him at 9am and do it.
This guy has been hadling cash he's not to walk into your business again.

MarkAnthony · 20-07-2015 12:15am

duffman13 wrote: »

Spot on, I'm aware of that but if he or hopefully another manager is presented with the evidence as listed by the OP it would warrant a warning. Usually when I do these I'm not judge and jury ie other manager passes the disciplinary stage to me or vice versa

It's been a nightmare for me in anywhere I've worked before dropping out and becoming a lay about again! HR/Area managers always want their input into the decision. Telling them to feck off was always a great pleasure of mine! At least HR could cloak it in 'consulting'. AM's it was always he's useless get rid of him. Poor sod almost always had a muppet as a direct line supervisor.

MarkAnthony · 20-07-2015 12:19am

obplayer wrote: »

Me too, I have run a small team in a supermarket so I have an idea what is involved.

But what is BRL?

Barrack Room Lawyer - a derogatory term for what we're all doing at the moment. Some with more insight than others. It's an army expression for the lad that thinks he knows all the regs but usually doesn't.

Goes with my other favourite elevenarife man. Always has to one up - you've been to tenarife, he's been to elevenerife! :pac:

MarkAnthony · 20-07-2015 12:21am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Suspend this guy in the morning first thing regardless of what other people are advising. I'm speaking as an employer that's been down this road a few times.
Don't wait for him to turn up just call him at 9am and do it.
This guy has been hadling cash he's not to walk into your business again.

Point taken but there is no allegation of cash handling issues. Given the guy is doing it 'open and notoriously' to use a phrase not used nearly enough :pac: I'd say it's a case not knowing any better.

Jjiipp79 · 20-07-2015 12:24am

I would think you need to let this person go. So the give the warnings and then terminate.. Make sure u do it all above board and in the right manner.

And I think if you are in the position to fire this person you should know what to do. The fact that you're on boards asking advice leads me to think you also should be fired.

daRobot · 20-07-2015 12:26am

Graham wrote: »

What is the limit on staff theft before it becomes a problem? €2.50 for coffee, €7 for lunch, €15 for dinner, €25 cab fare for the trip home, a weekend away because it's been a tough week?

I would be surprised if the sum total of his alleged theft, is more than 1-2 euro a day worth of goods :coffee and a sandwich.

It's a completely different matter to having his hands in the till, and not one that I personally would break sweat over.

But it's the op's business not mine - run it how you see fit.

Mrs OBumble · 20-07-2015 12:51am

OP - are you also an employee in a larger business? If so, consult your manager, which is where you should always take questions like this.

If not, ie if it's a small business and you are the owner, then please report this post, and one of the mods will move it over to Entrepreneurship and Business Management, who may have better advice for you.

Very roughly speaking, You have some risks to weigh up here: the chance that the guy will sue you if you get it wrong X the likely size of his payout, vs the cost of solicitor time to get it right.

Remember - we are all offering opinions here. But they are just that, opinions of randoms on the interwebz, not legal advice.

the_syco · 20-07-2015 1:07am

paska wrote: »

I have a staff member giving free coffee to his friend and not putting it through the til. i also have the same man on video making food for himself and taking it into the back kitchen to eat it.

Do you have proof that he didn't pay for it? Go through the correct procedures, as there's no reason why he couldn't turn around and claim that he paid the person who said they witnessed the person stealing. Otherwise he could sue for false accusation, false sacking, defamation of good character, etc, etc.

You'll find the ones who break the rules often know the law better than you do.

As said, get legal advice. If part of a large chain, ask their solicitor, otherwise get one yourself.

obplayer · 20-07-2015 1:30am

the_syco wrote: »

Do you have proof that he didn't pay for it? Go through the correct procedures, as there's no reason why he couldn't turn around and claim that he paid the person who said they witnessed the person stealing. Otherwise he could sue for false accusation, false sacking, defamation of good character, etc, etc.

You'll find the ones who break the rules often know the law better than you do.

As said, get legal advice. If part of a large chain, ask their solicitor, otherwise get one yourself.

Please listen to this.

Nody · 20-07-2015 5:59am

//MOD

What you need is advice from a solicitor or you'll open yourself to all types of claims for even one minor mistake.

Thread closed as boards do not give legal advise.

//MOD

Staff giving away free food

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