Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

Pro. F · 23-10-2012 10:48pm

It's hard to know what to take from these games when Fergie changes the formation so completely. If the team kept working on the diamond formation maybe it would work in the long term, although I'm not a big fan of it in general. But at least these games with this formation give players like Cleverley, Kagawa and Chico a chance to get more time on the pitch. As others have said, it's baffling that Giggs was the late sub to come on.

The defending was awful for their two goals, but at least Rio will be back for Chelsea. Butner had a howler for the first goal, but he still looks worth a few starts ahead of Evra to me.

I thought Rooney, Cleverley, and Chicharito were the stand outs. I'm delighted that Chico got his two goals. RVP did okay too.

Giggsy11 · 23-10-2012 10:52pm

If only Evra defended like Buttner for both goals...

Giggsy11 · 23-10-2012 10:53pm

Pro. F wrote: »

I thought Rooney, Cleverley, and Chicharito were the stand outs. I'm delighted that Chico got his two goals. RVP did okay too.

Chicharito's dribble from left wing after he was fouled, then the pass to set up Nani was just superb.

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 23-10-2012 11:03pm

poor performance...good result

J. Marston · 23-10-2012 11:03pm

This ''let them score first and lull them into a false sense of security'' tactic is working like a dream. More Fergie magic.

Son Of A Vidic · 23-10-2012 11:15pm

castletownman wrote: »

...Hernandez is such a lethal finisher he deserves to be there ahead of Danny. Cue Fergie not even using him in the Bridge on Sunday

I agree and not only would Fergie not playing Chico be ridiculous, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Red Crow · 23-10-2012 11:32pm

I don't know guys. Welbeck ability to hold up the ball better is likely to get him the nod and I'd agree with that. I'd like to see Chico come on with half an hour left and let him run at Luiz and Cahill.

The one huge plus with Chico is that defenders drop back giving a good bit of space for Rooney and van Persie to do their thing. I'm quietly confident for the weekend. I think Chelsea are quite poor at the back and they have a worse central midfield than us, but I'm very afraid of what Mata will do.

I think we'll go:

De Gea
Rafael
Rio
Evans
Evra
Valencia
Carrick
Cleverley
Rooney
Van Persie
Welbeck

I think Welbeck will probably play nearer to van Persie than Rooney but will be almost like a wing forward at times but mostly will be out on the left. Cleverley will probably occupy a large portion of the left to becuase leaving Evra out there with the like of Nani and such is crazy and Scholes won't play becuase he'll have to take on either Oscar, Mata or Hazard which is not good news for us.

I'll have a stab at the formation:

De Gea
Rafael Rio Evans Evra
Carrick
Valencia Cleverley Rooney Welbeck
RVP

Nalz · 23-10-2012 11:55pm

Giggsy11 wrote: »

If only Evra defended like Buttner for both goals...

poor enough alright

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/manchester-united-3-braga-2/

Pro. F · 23-10-2012 11:59pm

Giggsy11 wrote: »

If only Evra defended like Buttner for both goals...

Butner is likely to improve. Evra, who has made plenty of similar mistakes, is not.

Eathrin · 24-10-2012 12:10am

Chicarito's movement was amazing today.
Not many players in the game quite as good as him for making space for themselves.

We weren't having much luck on the wings however today.
Nani was unimpressive when he came on and Buttner was trying to compensate his defensive shortcomings with his runs forward.
At least we have Valencia.

Strange for me to look at Utd's back 4 and have the most faith in Evans not making a mistake.
He was the one a couple of years ago that I always thought disaster would strike as soon as he came into play.

Maximus Alexander · 24-10-2012 12:46am

I was only able to watch the highlights but Chico looked unreal. He looks to be developing into the full package, though I don't know how he is developing at all with so little game time.

Love that guy.

IrishIrish · 24-10-2012 1:01am

Eli Manning wrote: »

I'll have a stab at the formation:
De Gea
Rafael Rio Evans Evra
Carrick
Valencia Cleverley Rooney Welbeck

RVP

Try again

Pro. F · 24-10-2012 1:08am

IrishIrish wrote: »

Try again

Oh look it's IrishIrish! The poster who can't contribute to the thread himself, with his once-every-few-months swipe at somebody else's post. How very big and clever you are.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 1:19am

IrishIrish wrote: »

Try again

How about

DDG

Raf

Rio

Evans

Evra

Carrick

Clev

Scholes

Valencia

Rooney

RVP

kryogen · 24-10-2012 1:22am

Or

a front 6 of

Carrick
Clev Scholes
Rooney
Welbz RVP

PhlegmyMoses · 24-10-2012 1:59am

Eathrin wrote: »

Chicarito's movement was amazing today.
Not many players in the game quite as good as him for making space for themselves.

We weren't having much luck on the wings however today.
Nani was unimpressive when he came on and Buttner was trying to compensate his defensive shortcomings with his runs forward.
At least we have Valencia.

Strange for me to look at Utd's back 4 and have the most faith in Evans not making a mistake.
He was the one a couple of years ago that I always thought disaster would strike as soon as he came into play.

Evans has been there and thereabouts our best defender for the last season and a bit. He'll probably be the next to make it to first choice after Rio loses his edge\moves on.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 2:05am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Evans has been there and thereabouts our best defender for the last season and a bit. He'll probably be the next to make it to first choice after Rio loses his edge\moves on.

If Smalling can stay fit and keep progressing it will be very hard to keep him out of the team

Winston Payne · 24-10-2012 2:18am

We can't start Scholes on Sunday. Mata, Hazard and Oscar all running past him, yikes. Need to have Fletcher, Carrick and Cleverley in the middle. We'll need legs and movement along with a dedicated sitter. I was hoping Anderson would get a runout tonight instead of Giggs, who managed to give the ball away three times in the space of five seconds when he came on, against a team that was pretty gassed. If we start Hernandez against Chelsea that means the diamond again, or back to 4-4-1-1 with Rooney either dropped or wide. Even given all that I'm half-tempted, despite my preference for going 4-3-3, and a reactive one at that. We can't rock up to Stamford Bridge and dominate the ball, we haven't the tools for it, and I want us to be like a duck's arse against their creative band of three. Pack the middle, break wide. I'd take a draw now.

Not impressed with Buttner at all to be honest. I don't think there was much point buying him. He looks raw as all fook, especially for somebody who's 23. There's no point to having him as competition to Evra when he's an inferior player. He's positionally very raw, commits to challenges on the ground far too much and his crossing is gash. If we're going to replace Evra we should do it properly. Not with some chump-change punt. He was the fourth or fifth best left-back in Holland like. What we saw tonight was his level.

Eathrin · 24-10-2012 2:22am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Evans has been there and thereabouts our best defender for the last season and a bit. He'll probably be the next to make it to first choice after Rio loses his edge\moves on.

Yes I know last season he was excellent for us(excluding one or two shockers). I was more talking about the previous years where he was a liability to the team imo.

kryogen wrote: »

If Smalling can stay fit and keep progressing it will be very hard to keep him out of the team

It's looking increasingly like Smalling and Evans will form the CB duo after Ferdinand and Vidic move on.
Jones hasn't fully convinced me yet of his best position. He was super in some games last season but his flaws were also exposed, especially when playing CB.

PhlegmyMoses · 24-10-2012 2:22am

kryogen wrote: »

If Smalling can stay fit and keep progressing it will be very hard to keep him out of the team

Big ifs so far. He looks to have all the attributes but 15 years of Wes Brown makes me wary of hoping any youngster who has injury troubles will one day play full seasons for us.

Evans and Smalling in the future could be immense, though.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 2:24am

Don't think Fletch will play, I wouldn't mind a midfield trio of Carrick, Clev and Ando from the start tbh but can see Scholes incuded from the start with his non involvement tonight

PhlegmyMoses · 24-10-2012 2:26am

Winston Payne wrote: »

Not impressed with Buttner at all to be honest. I don't think there was much point buying him. He looks raw as all fook, especially for somebody who's 23. There's no point to having him as competition to Evra when he's an inferior player. He's positionally very raw, commits to challenges on the ground far too much and his crossing is gash. If we're going to replace Evra we should do it properly. Not with some chump-change punt. He was the fourth or fifth best left-back in Holland like. What we saw tonight was his level.

Incredibly harsh on Buttner. We really haven't seen enough of him to be saying it was pointless buying him. He was also only recently converted to a left full after playing on the wings. Still finding his feet.

Do you watch much Dutch football? I'd struggle to name two left fulls in that league tbh, let alone rate them in order, with Buttner coming 5th.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 2:29am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Big ifs so far. He looks to have all the attributes but 15 years of Wes Brown makes me wary of hoping any youngster who has injury troubles will one day play full seasons for us.

Evans and Smalling in the future could be immense, though.

Not too worried by his injury problems as of yet, and in terms of progression, I dunno, I think he is already an important player for us when fit, maybe he has been out so long people forget how impressive he has been?

As long as he doesn't turn out to have constant injury troubles I don't see anything else but him becoming a monster for us for many years to come. Hopefully Evans will show that he can be relied upon without having someone like Rio beside him, i.e. he can be the number 1 cb.

Winston Payne · 24-10-2012 2:34am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Incredibly harsh on Buttner. We really haven't seen enough of him to be saying it was pointless buying him. He was also only recently converted to a left full after playing on the wings. Still finding his feet.

Do you watch much Dutch football? I'd struggle to name two left fulls in that league tbh, let alone rate them in order, with Buttner coming 5th.

The two fullbacks at PSV, Willems and Pieters were both seen as better than him. Willems did his best scared deer impression at the European Championships and Pieters is a little injury-prone, if more solid when he plays. If he improves I'll be very pleased but I can't see it right now. He's not a youngster, I don't see that high a ceiling for him as far as talent goes.

PhlegmyMoses · 24-10-2012 2:36am

kryogen wrote: »

Not too worried by his injury problems as of yet, and in terms of progression, I dunno, I think he is already an important player for us when fit, maybe he has been out so long people forget how impressive he has been?

As long as he doesn't turn out to have constant injury troubles I don't see anything else but him becoming a monster for us for many years to come. Hopefully Evans will show that he can be relied upon without having someone like Rio beside him, i.e. he can be the number 1 cb.

Nah, I know Smalling is quality. He's just had so many injuries since signing for us that it makes me wary of expecting him to be a mainstay for us in the future. I get that many of them have been impact injuries and aren't muscle or ligament related but he has missed large chunks of the past couple of seasons due to injury. He needs a season relatively injury free at this stage of his development.

PhlegmyMoses · 24-10-2012 2:41am

Winston Payne wrote: »

The two fullbacks at PSV, Willems and Pieters were both seen as better than him. Willems did his best scared deer impression at the European Championships and Pieters is a little injury-prone, if more solid when he plays. If he improves I'll be very pleased but I can't see it right now. He's not a youngster, I don't see that high a ceiling for him as far as talent goes.

I've seen both of them play a couple of times each but couldn't say who was better. Buttner certainly couldn't have done much worse than Willems in the EC.

I'm not worried about his age too much. You need to look no further than our very own Evra to find a player who signed for us at 25, looked shaky as **** at the start and then became our best left back since Irwin for a good example of why writing a player off so early is crazy.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 2:45am

I agree, don't think Butters will be a long term first choice left back, but he is good enough to rotate with Evra and give Fabio a full season of playing regular football for sure.

Just on Smalling, from my memory I think a couple of his absences have been from a virus or illness?

Winston Payne · 24-10-2012 2:47am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I've seen both of them play a couple of times each but couldn't say who was better. Buttner certainly couldn't have done much worse than Willems in the EC.

I'm not worried about his age too much. You need to look no further than our very own Evra to find a player who signed for us at 25, looked shaky as **** at the start and then became our best left back since Irwin for a good example of why writing a player off so early is crazy.

Evra had already been in a CL Final. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to come good but the early signs look awful.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 2:51am

Winston Payne wrote: »

Evra had already been in a CL Final. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to come good but the early signs look awful.

Awful? That is a bit harsh tbf, he has looked good in parts, bad in others. He looks like decent back up tbh which is all I think he has really been bought for. It gives Fabio time to develop and see if he can be the next first choice left and gives the club time to recruit Evra's replacement if it is not going to be Fabio.

Winston Payne · 24-10-2012 2:54am

It's all contingent on Fabio being given the chance to compete for the spot when he comes back. I don't understand why that wasn't done this year, unless SAF thought it was a good idea to split the twins for a little bit. I'm also waiting to see what happens when Smalling and Jones are fit. If Rafael stays as first-choice, which he should given his performances and what he gives, then ok. If not, I'll start worrying again.

kryogen · 24-10-2012 3:06am

Fabio needs to be playing regularly now if he is to progress and have a chance at making the left back spot his own, I think he has a very good shot at it actually considering he forced his way into the team when he did have an injury free run, even getting the nod for the CL final at right back obviously.

Its down to him now, and luck I gues, if he performs well for regardless of how QPR do he should be given a prolonged run at left back next season, if he doesnt perform as well as we would like then I would still be wanting to give him a chance though so Im a little biased I guess

J. Marston · 24-10-2012 3:33am

Rooney is 27 today.

Liam O · 24-10-2012 3:48am

Buttner had a few defensive lapses tonight, wasn't unimpressed with him overall though. For the first goal everyone fell asleep not just him and with the lack of a definitive wide player he was asked to do a lot. He's played 2 games for United and not looked out of place. For a 2nd choice left back so far I'm happy enough.

Giggsy11 · 24-10-2012 8:04am

Loved Hernandez interview post match. He was asked about Diamond formation and something about it, he replied "That is a question for Gaffer, no?"

Also "It wasn't offside but it's not important, all that matters is the three points."

Fantastic professional and like Mikey said, he is a credit to the club. Fantastic signing for just 5 Million.

FutureGuy · 24-10-2012 8:52am

Given the performance last night and the torrid time that he has given Chelsea recently, I wouldn't mind Hernandez starting at the weekend.

Jax Teller · 24-10-2012 9:05am

I've noticed Chico's general play seems to have improved a little bit lately which is good .

aperture_nuig · 24-10-2012 9:46am

Great little selection dilemma now for Sir Alex for the weekend, whether to go to Chelsea in the league with Chico or Wellbeck (I'd imagine whomever loses out will start in the cup match against them). IMO neither have been terrific so far this season, but they both seem to be showing some form at the same time. It's hard to call, but I think I'd give Wellbeck the nod against Chelsea in the league, I think his link up play will be of more benefit to us.

Irishcrx · 24-10-2012 9:49am

Think people are a little too quick to jump on Buttner after two games, do we quickly forget how bad Evra and Vidic were in their first season at utd , yes he wasn't at the races last night but like Evra he is converting from a winger to a full back for utd and will need to be given time, 23 is not too old to develop far far from it. Going forward he looks decent , I think one of Evra's problems recently has been he's getting caught between taking the full back on when going forward , giving the ball away and being targeted to be out of position which is down to his decision making.

Utd play with attacking full backs and if we are sticking with the diamond our width is going to come from that area , even when we play with wingers we consistantly look to overlap and for that we need attack minded players in that position, of course his defending needs to improve but I think there's enough in him to do that and nail that left back spot in a year or two.

sReq | uTeK · 24-10-2012 10:15am

Chelsea have a real lack of place in the center and I think playing chico up front could really hurt them, Terry would much rather play against the likes of wellbeck than go against chico off his shoulder.

Should start chico, full of confidence and his all round play is improving to no end, great ball to nani from the left after he was fouled.

statto25 · 24-10-2012 11:01am

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Chelsea have a real lack of place in the center and I think playing chico up front could really hurt them, Terry would much rather play against the likes of wellbeck than go against chico off his shoulder.

Should start chico, full of confidence and his all round play is improving to no end, great ball to nani from the left after he was fouled.

Terry is suspended for three more games so it will be Luiz and Cahill in the middle of defence

sReq | uTeK · 24-10-2012 11:14am

statto25 wrote: »

Terry is suspended for three more games so it will be Luiz and Cahill in the middle of defence

Fair enough, substitute Cahill for Terry and it's the same scenario

aperture_nuig · 24-10-2012 11:19am

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Fair enough, substitute Cahill for Terry and it's the same scenario

Can't wait to see how RVP does for united against chelsea, he was brilliant against them for arsenal last year.

FutureGuy · 24-10-2012 11:23am

Hernandez will give Luiz nightmares tbf.

aperture_nuig · 24-10-2012 11:31am

In fairness, we've an embarrassment of riches up front, if we could sort out the back we'd be well in contention on all fronts, hopefully Smalling and jones coming back will help there. The way we've been coming back though, I'd almost prefer if we went behind in the first ten minutes against Chelsea!

homerjay2005 · 24-10-2012 11:57am

strange game, but delighted withe the result. aint seen any highlights yet, but from once it went to 2-0 we completely dominated the game. at 2-2, i was saying to the lads around me id take a draw all things considered but the reality is we were full value for the win. alot of strange decisions went against us, the offside call against hernandez an absolute Joke, the standard of officiating at European level is just awful at times.

once again we are vulnerable in the air and it seems like 80% of our goals conceded in 2012 are coming from set pieces or crosses. we just cannot defend the basics anymore, though not having Smalling/Vidic is obviously huge for us at the moment.

anyway, job done, we deserved the 3 points and we got them. a draw in Braga should see us home, with a win in the last game against Cluj to top the group.

onwards to Chelsea now.

FutureGuy wrote: »

Hernandez will give Luiz nightmares tbf.

Fergie will probably not pick him. i can see the same 11 that started against Newcastle being picked, with the exception of Kagawa who i assume is injured. Valencia will probably take his position.

Red Crow · 24-10-2012 12:17pm

IrishIrish wrote: »

Try again

As in what exactly?

Lord TSC · 24-10-2012 1:50pm

I can't wait for Chelsea. I think it's going to be a high-scoring game.

One thing that worried me last night was how we were asleep until they started scoring (AGAIN!), made a great come back and then switched off again. Maybe it was in part due to the fact Braga laid off while they held the lead and were even happy with the draw, but I felt there was a lot of passing amoung the back four in the last ten minutes, and wasn't confident we wouldn't concede again. I was happiest when every gun was firing and we were keeping possession in their half of the field. Our attack force is incredible right now, and we're even starting to see improvements in the midfield.

Shame about Kagawa. Thought he had a brilliant first half. Hope his injury isn't too bad.

Technophobe · 24-10-2012 2:05pm

kryogen wrote: »

Don't think Fletch will play, I wouldn't mind a midfield trio of Carrick, Clev and Ando from the start tbh but can see Scholes incuded from the start with his non involvement tonight

Agree that Scholes not playing any part last night most likely means he will start v Chelsea....so based on that I think we will see

Carrick
Scholes Cleverley Valencia
Rooney
RVP

in some formation or other

Julez · 24-10-2012 2:44pm

I lashed €7 on us to win when we went 2-0 down. Odds weren't even that great, but came out with €25. Not bad.

keane2097 · 24-10-2012 2:55pm

Julez wrote: »

I lashed €7 on us to win when we went 2-0 down. Odds weren't even that great, but came out with €25. Not bad.

I wouldn't go doing that too often, odds in running were a joke last night. Very tough to beat in-play markets in general.

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

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