RPT Hours

whiteandlight · 30-05-2012 8:10pm

linguist wrote: »

Well those are indeed the issues the I will have to grapple with over the summer. Can I say straight away that I'd really appreciate feedback from anyone with concrete experience or recommendations - by PM if necessary. I'll listen to every opinion.

Taking Musicmental85 first, the unions say that it is possible to get an 'enhanced' CID but they don't go into details. I understand that it can be done but I really don't fancy waiting years for it to happen.

rainbowtrout: I try to be optimistic and hopefully not naive. I have a good subject combination in the languages area and I genuinely believe that there will be opportunities this summer. educationposts.ie is encouraging in terms of the number of jobs up at this stage. I'm also told that, in Dublin, redeployment isn't really a big worry given the general rise in student numbers and expansion of schools. If I moved, the challenge would be to find something where both my subjects were rock solid in the curriculum of a school whose numbers were going in the right direction. It's a shame that so many of the new schools are VEC because of their internal moving about. I'd be most interested to enter into PM contact with anyone who can advise on Co. Dublin VEC in particular. As I said, all views welcome.

Well if the numbers are going up your first call should be to the union to see what the terms are for enhanced CIDs. If it was a case that the reduced hours were not your permanent unchangeable contract, a year on reduced hours would be better than another four years elsewhere.

You aren't in a vec are you? I've heard that you can get your CID through different schools in the same vec. If you were really lucky you might get a post in the same vec on a higher number of hours that would get you a better CID.

It's great to see Wicklow seem to be sorted out (educationposts.ie) bit far for me though so hopefully everyone else gets advertising soon. It's depressing to see only four permanent posts in that list though and one of them is for a DP. Plus on reading the individual adverts I don't think they really are permanent either...

linguist · 30-05-2012 8:21pm

No I'm not in a VEC. I have a very open mind at the moment...I won't leave to go to something where the conditions are worse (maternity leave, career break etc...) but with financial commitments it would be very hard to ignore a 'proper' 22hr job. I know that there are career and advancement implications but these are unusual times. Ultimately, the bills have to be paid.

rainbowtrout · 30-05-2012 8:39pm

linguist wrote: »

Well those are indeed the issues the I will have to grapple with over the summer. Can I say straight away that I'd really appreciate feedback from anyone with concrete experience or recommendations - by PM if necessary. I'll listen to every opinion.

My understanding of enhanced CIDs (from my year as rep) is as follows:

The school is obliged to only give you 14 hours once you get a CID for 14 hours, but of course you can be given hours in excess of this, but it can change from year to year with 14 being your minimum.

You can apply for an enhanced improved CID, but a bit like the four year CID rule, the school are not obliged to give you an enhanced CID at the end of your fifth year, if say you worked 19 hours next year. You have to do another four years before they are obliged to give you the enhanced one. Of course they can give you one if they choose to do so, but I think that day is long gone, and schools/VECs are only giving out contracts because they are legally obliged to do so.

What was not clear at the time when I was making these enquiries was if the hours were added to your original CID making it a 19 hour CID (using my example) or if you got a second CID for 5 hours. We haven't been in the position in my school to see this put to the test. The thinking was that you would get two separate contracts, which seems cracked to me, but two separate ones would prevent a teacher from getting the magic 18 hours and being paid for 22. Two separate contracts would mean still only getting paid for the hours you work. I'd be interested myself to here if anyone has any experience of a top up CID.

While the VEC system might not seem all that attractive with redeployment within a VEC you can have all your hours in separate schools/centres add up to give you a proper contract. Several people do it within my VEC. Also as you build up your years of seniority, it might save you job wise if there are cuts, even if it does mean a move to a different school. Also say if you had a 14 hour contract in School X in a VEC and School Y had another 4 hours going, assuming no one else could add them to their timetables within your VEC you would have a claim on those hours before someone new was brought in.

seavill · 30-05-2012 10:01pm

one thing to consider based on my experience of 2 different VECs (Not sure is it standard across most VECs or was I just unlucky) but both that I worked in were very keen on splitting up contracts.

I had 22 hours in both but maybe 10 were mine the rest of the hours were broken up into traveller allocation, foreign national, resource, consessionary etc. the list goes on, 3 hours belonging to this teacher on leave and 3 belonging to this teacher on secondment. This seemed to me to be a recent thing that the VECs became fans of.
So nowadays (whatever happened in the past) with the 2 vecs I worked in 22 hour contract actually became 10 hours which would actually be relevant for a CID eventually. So for me not all it was cracked up to be when advertised as 22 hours to replace a retirement.
In the last school the principal explained to all the part timers this was the policy the VEC were taking as they felt it was better for us in case someone came back as then 5 people would lose a few hours rather than someone losing a full job (if you believe that you believe anything, thinking of us my arse)

linguist · 30-05-2012 10:14pm

seavill: If you read this document from the ASTI http://www.asti.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Individual_articles/Cases.pdf, you'll see they claim to have successfully challenged the practices you describe.

Obviously, TUI is the union in the VEC sector, but the law is the law!

linguist · 30-05-2012 10:20pm

rainbowtrout: Thanks for your answer, even though it depicts the nightmare scenario that I'd rather avoid - the notion that it would be four years again before this would be righted and with no way of knowing what way enrolment and budget measures will go in the meantime.

The hours allocation on top of a CID - are they RPT hours, payable over 12 months? I presume they are and that your pension contributions and increment are the total of both? That would be crucial.

To be honest, this is the kind of mess that would make me more inclined to look elsewhere.

rainbowtrout · 30-05-2012 10:38pm

linguist wrote: »

rainbowtrout: Thanks for your answer, even though it depicts the nightmare scenario that I'd rather avoid - the notion that it would be four years again before this would be righted and with no way of knowing what way enrolment and budget measures will go in the meantime.

The hours allocation on top of a CID - are they RPT hours, payable over 12 months? I presume they are and that your pension contributions and increment are the total of both? That would be crucial.

To be honest, this is the kind of mess that would make me more inclined to look elsewhere.

Yes they would be RPT and you would be paid for them over the year, pensionable etc, but the following September you have no guarantee of them. We have a number of people on staff with contracts for 17 hours 20 mins, who now in their 5th/6th year are on between 18-22 hours this year, but no guarantee what they will get next year.

As one teacher pointed out on my staff a couple of years ago who has one of these contracts, a 17:20 contract is working only 80% of the hours you could potentially work and means a huge loss of earnings over a lifetime with the knock on effect on pension at the other end for those who decide to stay in teaching for the long haul.

Hard to imagine being kept on that for life, but at the same time people aren't likely to move on if they have job security in a market with very little work and if they get married, have kids, get a mortgage it makes it even harder to give up that job.

gaeilgebeo · 31-05-2012 1:05am

linguist wrote: »

Only a few days ago I was here giving what passes for advice to others...what a difference a week makes. I am going into my CID year and facing a cut from 19 to 14 hours. Devastating! The school is in DEIS and has been very hard hit by cuts.

I now have to decide whether to hang on in there and try to build up again - enrolment is projected to increase - or go and see if I can find something better and start all over yet again! I have considerable financial commitments so this is a serious choice. Any thoughts?

I am sorry to hear this linguist.
I'm sure it was a huge blow.
This is exactly the point I was making in previous posts. Unfortunately DEIS schools have been hit very hard, regardless of enrollment falling etc...
We had very bad news in our school this week too.

If your enrolment is projected to increase, I would definitely stay put.

Chris68 · 31-05-2012 10:53am

County Dublin VEC have advertised already - applications closed at this stage. Not sure it would do any good anyhow. I heard they were losing 60+ teachers this summer. Don't know how true that is but its not good news anyhow.:(

implausible · 31-05-2012 1:34pm

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

If your enrolment is projected to increase, I would definitely stay put.

Tough and all as it is, I'd agree with gaeilgebeo. Come September, you may end up with more than 14 hours with resource, ESL etc. Make sure you express an interest in any special needs hours that come up. I know that isn't what you are looking for, but at least it'll be money in your pocket. If the enrolment is set to increase, there's a good chance that you will get up to the 22, it'll just take longer than you expected.

Miss Lockhart · 01-06-2012 5:51pm

I can sympathise linguist. I also don't think people realise how hard DEIS schools have been cut. They are losing the same as everybody else as well as legacy posts.

I work in a large urban DEIS school (700 students + 350 adult students) with increasing enrollment, and we are losing 110 hours (5 teachers) next year. Our principal will also be teaching for the first time in 20 years.

Thankfully I have CID - but like you, my hours were reduced in my fourth year. I always had at least 18 hours. In my fourth year I had 22 hours but 7 of them were clearly designated as "not to be counted for CID purposes", with a breakdown of reasons given such as "3 hours from temporary NBSS funding" etc.

I'm very worried about my hours for next year now. Our principal says it will be August before she can say what our hours will be like.

linguist · 01-06-2012 7:52pm

It alarmed me that DEIS secondary schools didn't make much noise during the winter and spring. Our primary counterparts did and they got something out of it.

I'm keeping my options very much open. I'm encouraged by the amount of job ads that are appearing. With all the retirements there should be decent recruitment this summer. If I get a full time job arising from a proper vacancy, I'll be sorely tempted to give it a shot - not least because I have financial commitments that pretty much oblige me to make a proper living.

linguist · 03-06-2012 3:58pm

Can anybody comment on Chris68's report of 60+ job losses in Co. Dublin VEC?

Clearly, the changes to Guidance and DEIS would have impacted on them, however with so many growing and greenfield schools, this seems very high. I, luckily, applied to them online so I'm hoping something might come out of that. It would be nice to have some inside knowledge of where they stand.

rainbowtrout · 03-06-2012 4:28pm

linguist wrote: »

Can anybody comment on Chris68's report of 60+ job losses in Co. Dublin VEC?

Clearly, the changes to Guidance and DEIS would have impacted on them, however with so many growing and greenfield schools, this seems very high. I, luckily, applied to them online so I'm hoping something might come out of that. It would be nice to have some inside knowledge of where they stand.

60+ could mean 60 whole time equivalents which would be massive, but more likely means 60 teachers not on full hours. Either way it's not good.

We've had a permanent teacher redeployed after 23 years in the school. Very upsetting for her and all of the staff. And not fair either.

linguist · 03-06-2012 5:21pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We've had a permanent teacher redeployed after 23 years in the school.

In Co. Dublin VEC?

rainbowtrout · 03-06-2012 5:31pm

linguist wrote: »

In Co. Dublin VEC?

Roscommon

spurious · 03-06-2012 5:49pm

Transferred within the scheme or redeployed out?
I know the DES and VECs are using the term redeployment for both, but there are existing agreed procedures for transfers within the scheme.

I would hate to work in a religious owned/run set up after that long in a VEC.

rainbowtrout · 03-06-2012 5:56pm

spurious wrote: »

Transferred within the scheme or redeployed out?
I know the DES and VECs are using the term redeployment for both, but there are existing agreed procedures for transfers within the scheme.

I would hate to work in a religious owned/run set up after that long in a VEC.

She's been told transferred as such, but hasn't been told where yet. The words transferred and redeployed were being used interchangeably last week when really they have very different meanings.

spurious · 03-06-2012 6:04pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

She's been told transferred as such, but hasn't been told where yet. The words transferred and redeployed were being used interchangeably last week when really they have very different meanings.

Yes, the Unions need to watch that.
Involuntary transfers always gave the person certain rights, such as not being able to be forcibly transferred again. We need to make sure not to lose those rights.

bdoo · 03-06-2012 10:42pm

spurious wrote: »

rainbowtrout wrote: »

She's been told transferred as such, but hasn't been told where yet. The words transferred and redeployed were being used interchangeably last week when really they have very different meanings.

Yes, the Unions need to watch that.
Involuntary transfers always gave the person certain rights, such as not being able to be forcibly transferred again. We need to make sure not to lose those rights.

Very true. Transfer should be the first option before redeployment. another thing there and i know its a bit off topic but with amalgmations the unions should try to ensure that existing staff are transferred within their original VEC area.

I think the dept. unions and ivea need to get the finger out on a voluntary nationwide redeployment scheme which could save many of the forced redeployment

RPT Hours

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