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Article: The Secret Lives of Married Men

  • 25-01-2010 6:15pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    There is a very interesting article in today's The Times on the dynamics of male/female relationships.

    Link here:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article6992299.ece

    Wives, here is a fact you definitely don’t want to know about your husband: he wants to shag your best friend. Not only does he want to shag your best friend, but also your second and third-best friends. (And fourth, fifth, sixth, etc.) There’s nothing personal about this. In fact, in a strange way, he means it as a compliment. You see, one of the many delightful things he has noticed about women is that they tend to associate with women who are on a roughly similar level of pulchritude and general hotness. So what he’s sorta, kinda saying when he fancies your friends is how much he fancies you. But he’d never try articulating any of this to you. It’s just one of those many things that Wives Just Don’t Understand.

    Oh dear, I do wish I hadn’t written that paragraph. And I also wish I wasn’t about to write the rest of this article either. You see, as a man and a husband myself, I believe there are certain secrets to which the Opposition – ie, women/wives – should never be privy.

    Yet just because I had a phone call from a female commissioning editor (with the same name as that of a girl I once snogged when I was a teenager, though no relation, apparently), I’ve decided to sell out the brotherhood for a few pieces of silver.

    Sorry, chaps. My advice, if you want to get yourselves off the hook, is to look her in the eye and swear it’s all lies. Or at least a grotesque distortion of the truth. To help your case, you can point out that this piece is based on a mix of detailed interviews and half-remembered drunken pub chats with no more than a dozen men. They come from a wide range of backgrounds and income groups; some are recently married; some are on their second or third wives; some have had affairs; most haven’t (or not that they’ll admit to); at least one of them is gay.

    But 12 men is still a pathetically small sample; that’s what I’d tell her. Remember, as you say it, really to feel as though what you’re saying is true. If you do that, she’s much more likely to believe you, because women just aren’t as basic as men. They are often less interested in what you say than the way you say it. This is why, for example, women are so often smitten by utterly amoral cads who can tell them the beautiful lies they want to hear with total sincerity.
    Having studied psychology and counselled numerous couples in failing marriages, neuro-linguistic programming expert Steve Wichett knows about all the naughty things husbands get up to. He also knows the fundamental reason why men lie to their wives: “It’s a strategy to avoid pain and punishment.”
    Possibly, he argues – citing Allan and Barbara Pease’s Why Men Lie and Women Cry – it’s an extension of man’s atavistic hunting-and-fighting instinct; the need to conceal his true intentions to fox his prey/opponent and ward off attack. Today, it has an equally important role to play in keeping a marriage together. “Telling the whole truth to your wife is neither realistic nor desirable.” Or, as Mike, a manager, robustly puts it after 12 years of marriage: “You start out with this stupid, romantic notion, ‘Because we’re now in a relationship there’s nothing we can’t share.’ Then you realise: ‘That’s bollocks!’”
    And lest you think these are just typically male-chauvinist perspectives, here is The Times’s sex expert, Suzi Godson: “You don’t need to share everything in marriage because there are some subjects on which men and women will simply never see eye to eye.” She cites everything from expenditure to porn use to sexual fantasies. “Couples fare better when they keep their gender mystique.”

    The first thing husbands very necessarily keep shtoom about is their nagging discomfort at having got married in the first place. It’s not that they can’t see the benefits of the union – “Men need it because it gives them a partner with the emotional intelligence they know they lack,” says Wichett – only that they will always consider obedience and perpetual monogamy slightly unnatural states for a bloke. “I don’t know many men who feel truly comfortable with it,” says Peter, 38, an art dealer. “I think most men see their wives as authority figures that they have to rebel against. Sometimes I’ll nip outside for a sneaky fag, not because I’m a smoker, but because of how much my wife hates it.

    “Shopping’s another good one. I always use Waitrose because my wife gets cross that it’s so expensive. And although it isn’t true to say I buy things deliberately to annoy her, it’s definitely a good incentive. The other day I found this statuette on eBay, commissioned for a competition in the 1936 Berlin Olympics, of a female athlete raising her arm in an Olympic salute, which also looks quite Nazi. There’s a swastika stamped on the bottom. It was only £200, and it’s now in our sitting room, but my wife hates it. She says it’s a total waste of money and that everyone will think we’re Nazis.”

    Many husbands see their relationships as a game of cat and mouse, of bluff and counterbluff, like a – usually – more amiable replay of the Cold War. “I’ll encourage her to have her friends round for a proper girls’ evening, making out like I’m really worried to ensure she has a nice time,” says Mike. “But it’s not really that, obviously. What I really want is an extra night out with the boys for me. I think that secretly she knows that. She plays along with my lie to please me, which suits me fine.”

    Not one man I spoke to believed for one second that the best way to deal with your wife was openly, straightforwardly and honestly at all times. “Jesus, how could you?” says Ben, 34, a gym instructor. “What would be the point? They’d only get the wrong end of the stick, as they usually do. And I don’t mean that in a nasty way; I mean it in a ‘This is what women are like’ way. They think differently from how we do. They’re from another planet. Giving it to them straight would be an act of wanton cruelty – to both parties.”

    The area where dishonesty is uniformly considered the best policy is sex – everything from infidelity to porn to who you do and don’t fancy – which we’ll come to in a minute. But it also crops up in less contentious areas such as childcare, as novelist Sam Holden admits.
    “I wonder whether my wife has ever noticed that the end of my working day coincides precisely with the moment when the kids have been bathed and are ready for bed, and all Daddy has to do is read them a story. Deep down, my wife probably knows I find childcare a bore, and that she does a way better job of it than me. But if we ever tried talking about this openly, I’m sure there’d be a terrible row. So I don’t see anything wrong with my dissembling. It’s an act of charity.”

    “I think every dad knows this: work is your friend,” says Simon, 49, a fund manager. “It’s about the only weapon men have got left in these days where husbands and wives are supposed to share all the chores equally. Because of my job I have to work pretty hard. But not nearly as hard as my wife thinks I work. Weekends especially. And it’s not that I don’t love my kids; I adore them more than anything. It’s just that I like them to see me at my best, when I’m doing fun stuff with them, rather than worn down with tedious ferrying duties: recorder concerts, ballet classes, that kind of thing.”
    Being the main breadwinner has other advantages, too, such as never having to disclose to your wife how much of your earnings you are blowing on your vices. “Sports betting is my fatal addiction,” says Simon. “You can lose so much so quickly. The Ashes cost me an absolute fortune, especially Ponting’s batting. He’s normally so reliable, but towards the end of the series he just wasn’t making the runs. This is the sort of detail you don’t trouble your wife with. But do I feel bad about it? Not really. If you earn a lot, you can afford to lose a bit.”

    Kevin, 39, a teacher, has rather less to lose, but he has managed to run up a large credit card bill that he has resolutely kept secret from his wife. “Amazon 1-Click ordering has been my vice. I’m not sure when I’m going to finally clear my debts, but till then, what the wife doesn’t know isn’t going to hurt her, is it?”

    For Holden, where expenditure is concerned, the “rule of thirds” applies. “Suppose you’ve blown £600 on a flat-screen TV. When she asks you how much, you tell her £400. It’s exactly what they do with us when we ask them how much their new coat cost, so it seems only fair.”
    According to Wichett, after sex, money is men’s biggest area of secrecy in marriage. “So much of their self-esteem is bound up in their financial status that it’s more than they can bear to show any weakness,” he says. He has known of cases where men have carried on pretending to go off to work for months on end rather than admitting to their wives that they’ve been sacked. And with good reason, too, says Charlie, 51, an entrepreneur. “When wives get together, one of the main things they discuss is the uselessness of their husbands. It’s fine when you’re bringing home the bacon, but when you’re not, woe betide you. You can’t really blame them. It’s the wives who do all the real work in the marriage; all the thinking, all the forward-planning. If you can’t give them the lifestyle they want in return, you pay the penalty.”

    Now, finally, sex, which occupied by far the most important part in all the conversations I had – largely because, as one husband put it, “It’s what we think about more than anything else. The problem is that when you try telling women this, they’ll come back with this post-feminist line about how they think about sex just as much as you do. But they don’t. Like camels with water, they can go for a long time without it. Men, on the other hand…”
    This husband is now on his third marriage. The first two, he admits, were characterised by an outrageous number of affairs. “I was an appalling human being in a perpetual state of infidelity. In fact, it totally defined my life. If it wore knickers I’d jump on it.”

    Establishing percentages is difficult because men are very discreet about their affairs. Never once has any friend of mine ever told me about an unfaithful relationship while he’s having it, less perhaps because of discretion – as John Updike puts it, “Affairs beg to be disclosed” – than shame. As one man says of the affair that ended his marriage: “I never talked about it, and if any other man talked about his, I’d really disrespect him. I’d think, ‘You s***!’”
    Journalist and author Rod Liddle, himself a reformed roué, says: “I reckon 90 per cent of married men – if they could be guaranteed to get away with it – would have affairs.” And as far as desire is concerned, he is probably right. “God, I’d just love to have some completely meaningless sex with some gorgeous girl I’d met on a business trip,” admits Simon. “But not at the expense of my marriage.” “It is not natural for a man to be monogamous,” says Steve Wichett, who estimates that over a given period, between 35 per cent and 40 per cent of husbands will have affairs (though other surveys put the figure as high as 60 per cent). “Monogamy is an arrangement he makes with himself, either through reasons of fear or lack of opportunity.”

    Holden tells the story of a group of his thirtysomething married friends who went off on a rugby tour. He was mildly appalled by how many of them had flings. “Out of the team, four ended up bringing lapdancers or hookers back to their hotels. The general view was: ‘If it happens abroad, it hasn’t happened at all.’”

    The vice to which married men much more readily confess – though only to other men – is internet porn. “It’s one of the greatest inventions of the modern age,” confesses one husband. “Remember when we were teenagers, and all we had was a tatty old copy of Razzle with half the pages stuck together? The internet’s done away with all that. All the porn you want, in every possible variety you want. For free.” “What the internet does is help us to sublimate our desires in a socially acceptable way,” says Kevin, who thinks his wife probably is aware of his internet porn use, but would prefer to pretend it didn’t happen. According to Godson, internet porn definitely belongs to the category of things it’s best not to mention to your partner. “There are some things you just don’t do. Like pooing in front of one another…”

    Unlike their mostly disapproving partners, men generally view their internet porn habits as a fun, healthy, even laudable vice, which keeps them out of worse mischief. And if you’re a man, the consensus among my survey group runs, potential worse mischief is everywhere you look.
    “I was with one of my clients the other day,” says Ben, who isn’t really a gym instructor, but I don’t want to tell you his real job in case his wife of two years recognises him. “Blonde, rich, late twenties, totally up for it. We got talking about sex and she asked me how I’d respond, being a married man, if we were alone and naked. And I said: ‘Obviously, I’d have to shag you.’ I mean, any man would, wouldn’t he? We’re terrible like that. Really, the only defence you’ve got is not to put yourself in any situation where something like that could happen – like meeting her after work for just the one drink, say. Once you’re there, you’re finished, aren’t you?”

    That’s the problem with us men. No matter how old or ugly we are, no matter how secure and happy we are in our relationships, there’ll always be a small part of us that yearns to answer our atavistic urge to spread our gene pool as widely as we possibly can. This is why I wasn’t surprised by any of the above confessions from various male friends and acquaintances. Well, not that surprised: the one about the bridegroom who spent the morning of his wedding in a massage parlour raised an eyebrow. As did the one about the “perfect husband”, much cooed over by all the wives in his neighbourhood as the mate they’d most like to have, who unbeknown to his doting wife visits a prostitute at least three times a week. But even the extreme cases conform pretty well to what I understand of the male species.

    Here’s what did surprise me, though: my conversation with Barry, a man who had an eight-year relationship with his wife and two children by her before announcing he couldn’t take it any more: he was gay and always had been. “I was a late developer,” Barry told me.
    “I didn’t have sex with a man until I was 34. At the time, my wife was pregnant with our first child. Before that I’d had girlfriends, and enjoyed the sex, though not as much as I did with men.” The surprising bit – and Barry should know – was just how many married men out there are secretly gay. “And I don’t mean bisexual. Hardly any men are. They’re just gay men in denial or living a lie,” he says. “It happened more times than you’d ever imagine. I’d go out to parties, bars, clubs, with my wife, and after a few drinks another of the married men would ask if I was gay. Things used to happen from there.”
    I tell Barry that my gaydar is pretty good. Surely I’d guess if any of my married friends were living a double life. “Absolutely not,” he insists. “Some of those men were straight as straight can be. They reckon that between one in eight and one in fifteen men is gay. My experiences with married men bear that out.”
    I deliberately saved the Barry story until last, by the way, first because it is the weirdest and most interesting, but second because I think it offers a perfect cancelling-out opportunity for all the terrible confessions in this piece that have preceded it. “Is this really what you bastards are like?” wives across the land will be asking their husbands, as mine I fear will be asking me if I’m stupid enough to let her anywhere near it. And I’ll be able to look my wife lovingly and sincerely in the eye, as you’ll be able to look lovingly and sincerely at yours, and say: “Darling, I can promise you one thing: I’m not two-timing you with another man.” Well, the excuse will work for seven out of eight of you, at any rate.

    Brian -“I used to work for an airline, and would have flings when I was working. How many? Anything between three and six a month, often at a hotel called Concorde House in Gatwick. There was a common understanding that what happened away stayed away. It was so much the norm that I didn’t actually feel like I was lying. I felt guilty when I woke up in the morning, but I had a system. We were always in hotels, and I would always go back to the girl’s room. They felt more comfortable in their own room and I could leave in the morning, saying I had to take medication for an irritable bowel, and it was embarrassing.
    “My wife worked in the same industry. She knew what the score was and never challenged me, which worries me a little as she was probably up to something as well. In fact, I think women are the most clever, calculated deceivers of all. I remember once still being on top of a girl when she picked up the phone to speak to her boyfriend. I couldn’t believe it. She cancelled his call twice, but then took it the third time he rang. Sadly, I don’t fly any more, so my lies now are more about whether I’m at the pub or if I have emptied the dishwasher: things to give me an easy life.”

    Richard -“I have been married for 22 years, and my extramarital relationship is the only thing that I lie about. It was a big step for me. I pride myself on my honesty in other aspects of my life, but I was sick of lying to myself and pretending I was happy when I wasn’t. The physical side of my relationship with my wife has disappeared, and there is little prospect of it coming back. We went to counselling four years ago, and things improved for a few months, but then we got back into the same old routine. It is the one thing in our relationship that gets swept under the carpet and not discussed.
    “I came to the conclusion that my wife’s physical needs are just far fewer than mine, and then had to decide between breaking up the marriage, which I certainly did not want to do, and seeking something physical elsewhere. The choices left to me were to go and pay for it, which was a no-go because I wouldn’t feel comfortable just having sex – I wanted some kind of friendship, or to meet someone else. I was only looking for one person, not to score notches on my bedpost, and I wanted someone in a totally different circle to mine.
    “A year ago I joined a website for married people looking to have an affair. It’s called Illicit Encounters. At first, I was incredibly sceptical about online dating and dating in general – I hadn’t been on a date in 22 years. I had coffee with a couple of women, but there was no spark. It wasn’t until three months later that I met my mistress (I haven’t actually described her as that before). She is also in a sexless marriage. We now meet twice a month on average, always at a neutral location, normally a restaurant hotel for a meal, before going upstairs.
    “I don’t think my wife has any idea about what I have been up to. My job is not nine-to-five, so I don’t have to lie too much. She is not an irrationally jealous person, and I have been quite clever and calculating about it all. If I found out she was doing something similar, I would be upset and jealous, but more than anything I would be surprised because she has never given me the impression that sex is important to her.
    “What I have learnt from the whole process is that relationships and marriages are not black and white. I never wanted to leave my wife; I love her and we have two lovely children. I am the first to admit that it is a very ‘Have your cake and eat it’ attitude, but I would go as far as to say that, perversely, the website is actually keeping my marriage together. It has put a spring in my step and I am happier at home now that this yearning is fulfilled. How long that will last I don’t know, but at the moment it is ticking all the boxes.”

    Stuart -“I have been married since June, and have already told lots of little white lies. The thing is, sometimes men just have to lie. For example, I was playing cricket with my mates, which my wife – who was then my girlfriend – knew about, and I left all of my kit locked up in the clubhouse. The game went on for a while, and when we finally finished I went back to my bag to find I had 26 missed calls, 11 text messages and 7 voicemails, which started off asking, ‘Where are you?’ and culminated in ‘Why are you avoiding me? The marriage is off.’
    “So I had a good laugh at that with the guys, rang her back and reminded her where I had been. But she was still angry and wanted me to go straight home, via Gourmet Burger Kitchen, which I said I would do. A couple of beers later, I raced to GBK, bought the food and went home, blaming the delay on a queue. Ultimately, little white lies like that don’t hurt anyone. I think the only thing that would upset her is if she found out how many previous partners I had before we were married. She would definitely think less of me.”

    Charles -“These days, I don’t lie about anything. I’ve learnt from bitter experience that you will either get found out or the lie sits there and congeals. When I was married the first time, I wasn’t entirely faithful; I told porkies about all sorts of things. In the days before mobile phones, it was a lot easier. You could call from a phone box in Dartford, and pretend you were in Edinburgh on business, and she was none the wiser, so long as you could remember the lie and stick to it.
    “I almost got caught once, though. My first wife went away for a few days, and a female friend came round to, er, play. When she left, I cleaned the flat top to toe. My wife came back, walked in and said, ‘Why is this place so clean? Why have you spring-cleaned? You’ve been up to something.’ She went into our bedroom, picked up a hairbrush and found a long blonde hair in it. My wife was Japanese with short, black hair.
    “There was meltdown, but I remembered a wonderful film about comedian Lenny Bruce, who believed that, even if you are caught red-handed by your wife, you have to deny everything and keep denying it, until eventually she comes round because fundamentally she wants to believe you. And he is right. I made up a story, she called me a lying toad, and for three days my life was hell. But I knew that if I gave in, it would be worse. Three days went past and it was never referred to again.”

    John -“My worst ever lie was my first to a woman. It still haunts me to this day. It was on the night of the Brixton riots; very dramatic and exciting. We were 17 and I’d snogged her for about five hours on the sofa, but the next day when we met up, I had this realisation that this wasn’t such a good idea. I could sense she was keen, so I suddenly came out with this amazing story.
    “I have no idea where it came from. I told her I had a girlfriend in Newcastle and had just found out she was pregnant, and that I couldn’t really have another relationship. In a couple of days, the whole school had heard. And, of course, it wasn’t true. I was from southeast London and a virgin. So I had to come clean. I've never done it again.”

    Interviews: Alexia Skinitis and Lisa Grainger. Names have been changed


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Could you edit it into paragraphs? Would make it easier on the mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,429 ✭✭✭✭star-pants


    Interesting read.

    Yet all it screams to me is 'men have to lie' 'men have to cheat' '*most mens wives are either bunny boilers or out doing the dirty themselves or just need '
    And no one seems to communicate properly.

    That said I've been cheated on in most of my relationships, I'd never do it myself and I'd damn well get rid if i'd known at the time.
    hmm..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    What is the point of being with someone who is pretending they are someone else?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    A relationship thats untenable without lies isn't worth having imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    A great lifestyle article and I wondered what I was doing wrong ;)


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    What is the point of being with someone who is pretending they are someone else?

    I don't think its the case that they are pretending to be 'someone' else- its more the case that they are stretching the truth- sometimes to totally improbable lengths. In some men's minds- they may think they are appeasing or even defusing potentially volatile situations, by lying- or in other cases- they are delibertly trying to rub up their partners the wrong way (why, I don't know).

    Imagine a slight change here- and its your parents you are talking to- and you're delibertly telling them what you know they want to hear, but fully with the intention of going and doing what you want to do- as soon as you've made them happy- secure in the knowledge that they're highly unlikely to ever find out you've been two faced to them- what would you do? Surely most people would either lie, or next best- not correct an incorrect assumption on the part of the other person? An error of omission- is surely on parr with the lie?

    I'm not suggesting for a moment that the attitudes of some of the guys in the article is excusable- though I would question how healthy a relationship they have- particularly the guy who delibertly goes shopping in Waitrose just to piss off his wife....... Appeasing someone is one thing- declaring war on the other person- is an entirely different story.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    I do think there is a lot of fear of mommy stuff going on. But on the other hand you have to ask if alot of these wives have pygmalion complexes. I wouldnt want to be married to any of those men.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    But we all know our share of bunny boilers and walter mitty's - if I met a bunny boiler and posted in PI the advice I would get would be move, leave and after telling my particular lie would be congraulated on my Bullet Dodged.

    So you will have fantasists who deserve their own spot on Joe Duffy but you also get guys in very difficult relationships.

    I imagine its the fantasists were the ones who agreed to be interviewed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    CDfm wrote: »
    But we all know our share of bunny boilers and walter mitty's - if I met a bunny boiler and posted in PI the advice I would get would be move, leave and after telling my particular lie would be congraulated on my Bullet Dodged.

    So you will have fantasists who deserve their own spot on Joe Duffy but you also get guys in very difficult relationships.

    I imagine its the fantasists were the ones who agreed to be interviewed.
    Very good point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Interesting, albeit verbose, article (do they get paid by the word?).

    Reminded me of this comic:

    20100122.gif


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭Smallbit


    Interesting article, but like many articles it's intentionally provocative. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle though. I also think that the older women get, the more realistic they become about men and their motivations.

    My mother was probably ahead of her time but she always told me and my sisters to keep our men happy in the bedroom to stop them straying! She made the point that men are sexually driven and that they will fulfill their needs elsewhere if you don't bother.

    The older I get, the more I can see this not as morally correct, but as pragmatically justifiable. I enjoy sex, and I don't understand how couples can let their sex lives just wither away.

    I can see that many women my age show no interest in sex with their husbands and place all the blame on them with the usual excuses like "he's not romantic" or "he makes no effort" or "he's let himself go" and so on but they never turn their focus inward to accept that they might share the blame.

    If I was trapped in a marriage with no sex, I'd look elsewhere too. It mightn't be morally correct but the 'til death us do part' idealism can make for a miserable life. Why should anyone do without an essential physical joy just because their partner won't address the issue?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,810 ✭✭✭Mackman


    That guy needs to get some new mates.

    Christ! is he trying to get us all into trouble? He basically said that nearly all men cheat, and if they deny it, they're lying.

    Whatever about lying to your OH about a little betting, or little mind games. But cheating? Scumbags IMO


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Lothaar v2


    That article is a pile of horsesh1t and the quotes are quite obviously made up. They read like made up quotes conceived by a bad fiction writer. "I sometimes smoke just to rebel against my wife, which is a handy metaphor for men's struggle with monogamy." Isn't it reallly lucky that the journalist just happened to find so many people with anecdotes that contextualise the point he was making?

    Load. Of. Cr@p.

    Yes, they do get paid by the word.

    Shame on you timesonline.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Lothaar v2 wrote: »
    That article is a pile of horsesh1t and the quotes are quite obviously made up. They read like made up quotes conceived by a bad fiction writer. "I sometimes smoke just to rebel against my wife, which is a handy metaphor for men's struggle with monogamy." Isn't it reallly lucky that the journalist just happened to find so many people with anecdotes that contextualise the point he was making?

    Load. Of. Cr@p.

    Yes, they do get paid by the word.

    Shame on you timesonline.

    I am not so sure about dismissing it totally though it is tacky and is not a bit like guys talk.I mean if someone is in an unequal relationship powerwise they will resort to tactics to get thru it. So smoking to annoy someone -yup -I can get that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    tl;dr

    I assume it's just a load of generalising, Freudian bullshít.

    I read an article a while back suggesting that women were more unfaithful than men.

    I have no faith in the validity of much of psychology and sociology, especially when sex or relationships are involved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,190 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    CDfm wrote: »
    Thats your experience and it would be anecdotal.

    I never said it was my experience. I said it was my opinion. A not unsubtle difference.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I never said it was my experience. I said it was my opinion. A not unsubtle difference.

    Sorry - I meant your opinion but surely you are basing it on something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Lothaar v2


    CDfm wrote: »
    I am not so sure about dismissing it totally though it is tacky and is not a bit like guys talk.I mean if someone is in an unequal relationship powerwise they will resort to tactics to get thru it. So smoking to annoy someone -yup -I can get that.

    Of course you can get it! It's certainly within the realms of feasibility. That's exactly why the author decided to say it. It really sums up the power dynamic, which is a metaphorical representation of the wider point he was making in the article.

    That reeks - I mean REEKS - of made up BS. I could forgive and forget if it was just one quote... but it's pretty much rampant throughout the entire article.

    BTW, to take a leaf out of that author's book, I'll let you in on a secret: many journalists make quotes up.

    Some are able to make it look realistic and seamless... others (like this guy) make it look tacky. It's the sort of dialogue you'd see in a bad fiction book.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Lothaar v2 wrote: »
    Of course you can get it! It's certainly within the realms of feasibility. That's exactly why the author decided to say it. It really sums up the power dynamic, which is a metaphorical representation of the wider point he was making in the article.

    I dont do metaphors but if you say that some guys get bullied by their wives to the point thjat they are slightly wacko and eccentric - Id buy that.
    That reeks - I mean REEKS - of made up BS. I could forgive and forget if it was just one quote... but it's pretty much rampant throughout the entire article.


    BTW, to take a leaf out of that author's book, I'll let you in on a secret: many journalists make quotes up.

    Maybe so - but if you read PI enough times I imagine there is little you would need to fabricate here.
    Some are able to make it look realistic and seamless... others (like this guy) make it look tacky. It's the sort of dialogue you'd see in a bad fiction book

    You will get some people at the extreme end of the spectrum but its the London Times and we have to accept that the journalist is being honest. For that matter, not all guys are perfect and some may have odd ideas too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Lothaar v2


    Hmm... you're missing my point.

    I'm not stating that the article *couldn't* be factual.

    I'm saying that he made up the quotes. Look at the style. Look at how unfeasibly appropriate every little anecdote is, with each one giving us some character development as well as a little sub-plot and intrigue. The article is riddled with the devices of fiction - which in itself is not a bad thing ('new journalism') but in this case it is just obviously made up.

    The fact that it is the London Times makes it more shameful. I already cast shame upon that supposed bastion of journalism, and I'll do it again: shame on you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Lothaar v2 wrote: »
    Hmm... you're missing my point.

    I'm not stating that the article *couldn't* be factual.

    I'm saying that he made up the quotes. Look at the style. Look at how unfeasibly appropriate every little anecdote is, with each one giving us some character development as well as a little sub-plot and intrigue.

    OK what if the journalist was attending one of those male group events on masculinism (or whatever the male equivalent of feminism is) then it is quite possibleb that he could meet up with guys with ideas like that. Some womens groupos have odd ideas too and maybe this is the other extreme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Lothaar v2


    CDfm wrote: »
    OK what if the journalist was attending one of those male group events on masculinism (or whatever the male equivalent of feminism is) then it is quite possibleb that he could meet up with guys with ideas like that. Some womens groupos have odd ideas too and maybe this is the other extreme.

    Missing the point again, dude.

    I'm not commenting on people's ideas. I'm not even debating the subject here.

    I'm merely saying that the author made it up. It's certainly possible that there are many people out there that could tell similar stories to the ones the author made up. But, from reading that 'article', it's obviously made up.

    What the article IS is one person's commentary on the subject. And it has inspired debate and discussion, which is fine and dandy. My issue is that it's clearly made up. That's all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Lothaar v2 wrote: »
    Missing the point again, dude.

    What the article IS is one person's commentary on the subject. And it has inspired debate and discussion, which is fine and dandy. My issue is that it's clearly made up. That's all.

    I am less sceptical than you about the article and I agree that some of the ideas are odd, but Ive heard worse, I have seen weird items published on womens issues too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭beth-lou


    So basically he's saying that all men are weak willed, lying, cheating idiots with no back bone or self control, who can't communicate in a mature fashion and so, have resigned themselves to being quiverring little boys around their life partner, and feel the need to assert themselves by having a sneaky fag like a petulant teenager.

    Don't you find that a little insulting as a man?

    Yes some men are as he describes, to the letter, my own father being one of them. But most, perhaps, to a lesser degree.

    Most of us girls know that you guys can't help but fantasise about most attractive girls you meet. No big secret there. It's plainly obvious. And most women will have the same wants and urges throughout married life, we're just a lot more subtle about it.

    I imagine there have been countless similar articles written in Cosmo and other womens mags about the secret life of married women. They fill colum inches don't they.

    There are no secrets revealed in that article.


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Lothaar v2


    CDfm wrote: »
    I agree that some of the ideas are odd

    Again, I didn't comment on the ideas.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    beth-lou wrote: »
    So basically he's saying that all men are weak willed, lying, cheating idiots with no back bone or self control, who can't communicate in a mature fashion and so, have resigned themselves to being quiverring little boys around their life partner, and feel the need to assert themselves by having a sneaky fag like a petulant teenager.

    Don't you find that a little insulting as a man?

    Yes some men are as he describes, to the letter, my own father being one of them. But most, perhaps, to a lesser degree.

    Not me - but there are a lot of guys out there getting an awful time from their wives and life partners.

    It shouldnt be any more insulting to the male sex than it should to the female sex.

    What is odd do is that in the knowledge that the law is unequal that as men and women we accept it.

    Surely if your dad is frightened or abused by his wife he is entitled to the same protection your mother has????

    The moral issue for you I suppose would be could you support an organisation who supports the abuse of your Dad or brother ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭beth-lou


    CDfm wrote: »
    Not me - but there are a lot of guys out there getting an awful time from their wives and life partners.
    Indeed there are. There are as many women getting an awful time from their husbands. If it's that bad and you can't fix it, leave.
    It shouldnt be any more insulting to the male sex than it should to the female sex.
    It's talking about men. Not women. If a man stays with a horrible partner then that's his choice. It's too easy to blame your partner and act the idiot. That goes for both sexes. Fix it or get out.
    What is odd do is that in the knowledge that the law is unequal that as men and women we accept it.
    The law is complicated, but I do agree that it should be reformed and men should have more right, especially with regard to children.
    Surely if your dad is frightened or abused by his wife he is entitled to the same protection your mother has????
    I agree. But this is not in the article.
    The moral issue for you I suppose would be could you support an organisation who supports the abuse of your Dad or brother ?
    No I couldn't support an organisation that supports the abuse of anyone, male or female. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭extra-ordinary_


    CDfm wrote: »
    So really the person who is not in the relationship has no responsibility to the person being cheated on.


    I totally disagree.

    If you're with someone who's married, then you're a party in the cheating.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    beth-lou wrote: »
    CDfm wrote: »
    Indeed there are. There are as many women getting an awful time from their husbands. If it's that bad and you can't fix it, leave.

    It's talking about men. Not women. If a man stays with a horrible partner then that's his choice. It's too easy to blame your partner and act the idiot. That goes for both sexes. Fix it or get out.

    The law is complicated, but I do agree that it should be reformed and men should have more right, especially with regard to children.

    I agree. But this is not in the article.

    No I couldn't support an organisation that supports the abuse of anyone, male or female. :)

    I agree Beth-Lou 100%

    Yes its totally wrong that the laws are the way they are.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Thread status: Derailed.

    I'm probably going to get warned for backseat modding for this, but.. CDfm, I normally have a lot of respect for your input in tLL, but.. this thread isn't really about men vs. women in regards to legal rights and children. I found the topic really interesting and while I haven't put in any input I've been following the thread out of curiosity in regards to the kind of replies that would come in reference to the topic.

    Any way we can get it back on topic?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    liah wrote: »
    Thread status: Derailed.

    I'm probably going to get warned for backseat modding for this, but.. CDfm, I normally have a lot of respect for your input in tLL, but.. this thread isn't really about men vs. women in regards to legal rights and children. I found the topic really interesting and while I haven't put in any input I've been following the thread out of curiosity in regards to the kind of replies that would come in reference to the topic.

    Any way we can get it back on topic?

    HI Liah -its been a while.

    I agree with you liah - it has gone hugely of topic and focused on a differnt issue and because of the content thats not being dealt with properly.

    There is another thread on marriage and the law etc and if i find it i will post a link.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    I don't know where to even start with this thread lads

    Its gone so far from whatever topic it was discussing that I'm not sure what to be doing.

    I'm going to lock it for the minute, simply because I don't have time right now to wade through and delete the OT-ness, and locking prevents any more stuff being added to already OT debates/arguments.

    When I get a chance later on to fix things up, I'll re-open it and we can proceed from there.

    This thread de-railing, i think anyway, has been rearing its head a lot recently. Really peoples, its not a good look. Can we try to keep things on the line, and not be letting our own personal bugbears or favourite topics seep into every thread.

    cheers

    MM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Ok

    Better late than never I suppose!

    I've just deleted up on 20 posts from what was a 4 page thread. Can we keep this one on topic as best we can. Specifically, this thread is for discussion based on the article that was posted OP. It is not, for getting into the nitty gritty of family/separation law. We have had numerous discussions around this, and there are threads on the topic. I'm totally aware of how things go on tangents, and topics veer about, so if things digress we can look at creating new threads and moving posts etc.

    Cheers

    MM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    liah wrote: »
    Thread status: Derailed.

    I found the topic really interesting and while I haven't put in any input I've been following the thread out of curiosity in regards to the kind of replies that would come in reference to the topic.

    Any way we can get it back on topic?

    So how true is the article then?

    Is it wussed up or believeable?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    CDfm wrote: »

    There is another thread on marriage and the law etc and if i find it i will post a link.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055694680&page=6

    the elusive thread on marriage and the law -the absense of which derailed the thread.

    there was another thread on equality that i will poost a link to if i can find it

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055683351&page=16


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