Given 15 classes (10 hours) to teach in a subject not recognised to teach. Normal?

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 12:22pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I think that would be a grey area tbh. Are there minutes of dept. meetings in the folder, is the folder kept in school, is there subject planning in the folder, was the folder ever asked for in a subject inspection... I think if you are maintaining a folder for the benefit of the school and it is 'assumed' to be a duty of every dept then it cold be argued to be a school document.

It's a school document that was virtually entirely put together by me. I'll be taking out the parts of the document that I designed (which is about 90% of it) and worked on privately in my own time. I don't care what is "assumed".

It mightn't be explicitly stated in your contract but . .

But Nothing - It's not in my contract. End of Story.

Also if you took over the dept. from a previous teacher who kept the folder then it would be assumed to be part of your duties.. In your contract it probably doesn;t state that you have to order chemicals etc but you still do it as a matter of course.

It doesn't state that in my contract and I'll be doing what the other teachers (including the one who replaced me) do - and not bother my arse. Let the new chemistry teacher do all that work . . . Or am I still expected to be the fool who does the donkey work

That's my reading of it anyhow, but regardless of whether you would be entitled to bin your dept. folder you would be forever known as the ************ who took the folder if you did.

Ha - Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Continuing to play the dept. head role OR going the opt-out/non co-operation route could go either way for you. Who knows... down the line these might become paid posts again and if you take a hands off approach now you could find yourself ruled out of a post AND be at the beck and call of your new Dept. Head if they take over. In our school some of the dept heads still hold on to their paid posts but there is mutterings of it not being fair (and it's not) so there is mention of rotating the paid posts around different departments (probably never happen but who knows)

I'm not Subject Coordinator. I was from 2005-12. The "Dept Head" has no such power that you describe here in my school.

Conversely... if you keep a firm grip on everything that moves and assume a managerial role (i know i know Peter :pac:) within the dept then it could give you more bargaining rights in terms of 'hours' and teacher deployments in the future. It wouldn't look good either for other teachers if you delegate out the work and they don't do it... i.e. they just want to teach the subject but not any of the dirty work of running a dept. Running a dept might count in an interview too if any additional posts ever come up again.

Teachers in my school are basically told who they're teaching by the Principal.

Interviews?

Jobs are handed out to the girls in my school. I won't be applying for interviews in my school. I don't want their "jobs".

evolving_doors · 03-07-2014 12:39pm

Jeez Peter you need to get out of that school, leaving aside the general interaction in class with the students, the environment itself doesn't inspire you to do any more. You seem to have given so much but got little thanks in return.

This might be an anathema to your general persona but you should start working towards an exit strategy by getting a reference from the principal... Yes Peter that means kissing up to management

"I have to say Principal I'm delighted you have taken the insightful step towards building my department and creating a dedicated experienced team. I'm also really looking forward to working within the maths department and considering doing the part time maths teacher diploma to get me up to spec."

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 12:40pm

Clairey__ wrote: »

The situation you have found yourself in Peter sounds so frustrating. Just to maybe throw a spanner in the works in regard to the being qualified to teach a subject. I recently got in contact with the teaching council about how to register an additional subject for which I am completing a course in. The response I got included this paragraph :

"In the first instance it is important to note that post-primary (Regulation Four) registration only requires that applicants hold qualifications which enable the holder to teach at least one post-primary curricular subject. Deployment within schools to teach all subjects is a matter for individual school authorities. If a teacher has already met this requirement in respect of one curricular subject it is not a registration requirement to be recognised for an additional subject(s). "

Now I feel this is open to interpretation, but my understanding is that once you are in a school it doesn't particularly matter what you are qualified in, you can teach any subject. I find this extremely frustrating as the main message being issued from the TC is "you must be qualified to teach in your subject". So many mixed messages coming from them.

I know this doesn't help with your situation Peter and I hope you find some solution.

The Teaching Council couldn't care less if teachers are recognised by them to teach particular subjects.

They want your money so they use the apparatus of the state to ensure that they get it by making sure you're a registered teacher before taking up a teaching position.

The only way it could come back to management is if a subject inspection occurred.

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 12:46pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Jeez Peter you need to get out of that school, leaving aside the general interaction in class with the students, the environment itself doesn't inspire you to do any more. You seem to have given so much but got little thanks in return.

This might be an anathema to your general persona but you should start working towards an exit strategy by getting a reference from the principal... Yes Peter that means kissing up to management

"I have to say Principal I'm delighted you have taken the insightful step towards building my department and creating a dedicated experienced team. I'm also really looking forward to working within the maths department and considering doing the part time maths teacher diploma to get me up to spec."

Yea - The atmosphere among staff is toxic with cliques all over the gaff.

Honestly I will be looking around although I would not switch unless a guarantee of permanency came up - and that's unlikely. As bad as the place is I'm not going to switch schools and run the risk of signing on in a year or two.

If I wrote that last comment to my Principal next years timetable would be hilarious - out of chemistry altogether and in with a wide range of unrecognised subjects.

I'm thinking a letter to the Board of Management is going to be the response.

I'm not discussing it with the Principal - She's a non-entity as far as I'm concerned. . . She only got the job because no one else applied for it.

rainbowtrout · 03-07-2014 1:00pm

I would say Peter that if you're going the board of management route have a discussion with the principal first so you can show you have followed procedure / chain of command. Otherwise all she has to say to BOM is ' well this is the first I heard of it. I didn't realise he had a problem with teaching maths and now the timetables are set and its going to be difficult to change. If only he had come to me sooner'

Now it might be all bull on her part but it won't look like that to the BOM

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 1:05pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would say Peter that if you're going the board of management route have a discussion with the principal first so you can show you have followed procedure / chain of command. Otherwise all she has to say to BOM is ' well this is the first I heard of it. I didn't realise he had a problem with teaching maths and now the timetables are set and its going to be difficult to change. If only he had come to me sooner'

Now it might be all bull on her part but it won't look like that to the BOM

I wouldn't be asking for timetables to be changed. That's not going to happen - Change my timetable and you have to change everyone else's.

I'm going down the route of enquiring why I was taken out of a subject I am recognised to teach and placed into a subject for 10 hours that I am not recognised to teach.

I won't be discussing anything with the Principal as this is information she knows. She'd look a right incompetent if she tells the BoM . . . "Oh I didn't know he wasn't recognised for Maths"

She'll get treated with the same respect she treated me with.

TheDriver · 03-07-2014 1:16pm

Interesting discussion. It appears that the culture in the school is such that the school doesn't operate as it should-in the best interests of the students and in the interests of fair play. I appreciate why you are anti management at times Peter with this environment.
Should you have Chemistry all the time? No. Should there be a fair rota? Yes. However if someone already has another leaving cert subject, then I don't think its fair they demand another and leave you without any.
Regarding people going on Mat leave and taking classes out of the timetable: This happens because you know you won't get anyone good in that subject area and hence its better for everyone including the person going on ML so they don't have to pick up a mess afterwards. Its also the "right" of the principal to put people doing things to fill timetables however with general consensus and fair play. Peter has said he doesn't mind doing Maths which is commendable but there must be fair play in every manner and not concede to demands. Why don't you write the same amount of letters to the Principal and demand accordingly?
Also: this is why you shouldn't get TT until mid-late Aug so you can enjoy your hols.
I wouldn't go straight to the BOM, I wold go via the P initially and then on from there. No matter how much you rate her, she is still the Principal and you can't ignore process. THEN go to the BOM and your union rep.

The recognised to teach argument is also interesting: there is a lot of discussion on these threads about full hours, casualization etc yet the other side of it is that unless people are qualified for 2 subjects or flexible as peter is here, you can't put them on full hours. Catch 22 at times.

rainbowtrout · 03-07-2014 1:32pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I wouldn't be asking for timetables to be changed. That's not going to happen - Change my timetable and you have to change everyone else's.

I'm going down the route of enquiring why I was taken out of a subject I am recognised to teach and placed into a subject for 10 hours that I am not recognised to teach.

I won't be discussing anything with the Principal as this is information she knows. She'd look a right incompetent if she tells the BoM . . . "Oh I didn't know he wasn't recognised for Maths"

She'll get treated with the same respect she treated me with.

That's not what I said. She can tell you why she took you out of chemistry and it would be important to get that from her first.

She also wouldn't have to go with 'I didn't know he was recognised for maths', I said she could say 'I didn't think he would have a problem with maths'.

You've acknowledged on here that you are competent in maths, your principal would more than likely be going down the same route, but in the knowledge that you don't hold the qualification.

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 1:46pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's not what I said. She can tell you why she took you out of chemistry and it would be important to get that from her first.

I know why I was taken out. It has nothing to do with the interests of the students and everything to do with the Principal handing my job to someone else.

Another teacher - who currently teaches Biology - wanted my job (as well as maintaining her Biology job)

So she:
1 - wrote to the Principal
2 - Emailed the Principal
3 - Rang the Principal
4 - Visited the Principals office in May. . . Just for a reminder.

So a decision was made and I'm out.

She also wouldn't have to go with 'I didn't know he was recognised for maths', I said she could say 'I didn't think he would have a problem with maths'.

You've acknowledged on here that you are competent in maths, your principal would more than likely be going down the same route, but in the knowledge that you don't hold the qualification.

Maths has been used as a filler subject.

It's not a back handed compliment to me - A patronising "but you're so good at Maths"

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 2:22pm

Here is the timetable with the Maths classes highlighted.

rainbowtrout · 03-07-2014 2:22pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I know why I was taken out. It has nothing to do with the interests of the students and everything to do with the Principal handing my job to someone else.

Another teacher - who currently teaches Biology - wanted my job (as well as maintaining her Biology job)

So she:
1 - wrote to the Principal
2 - Emailed the Principal
3 - Rang the Principal
4 - Visited the Principals office in May. . . Just for a reminder.

So a decision was made and I'm out.

Maths has been used as a filler subject.

It's not a back handed compliment to me - A patronising "but you're so good at Maths"

So then surely it's important to get a reason from her and take notes at the meeting before you make representations to the BOM?

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 2:25pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So then surely it's important to get a reason from her and take notes at the meeting before you make representations to the BOM?

A fair point.

Moody_mona · 03-07-2014 2:29pm

Are the 1G etc indicating that they're 1st and 2nd years? If so, I'd be concerned about them stating on your timetable in subsequent years.

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 2:31pm

Moody_mona wrote: »

Are the 1G etc indicating that they're 1st and 2nd years? If so, I'd be concerned about them stating on your timetable in subsequent years.

They are yea. . .I've only just noticed all the first years.

I've never taught such a huge amount of first years.

Moody_mona · 03-07-2014 2:42pm

1st year Maths is tough. I know with Science you're probably used to mixed ability, but trying to cover the CIC with mixed ability first years is not fun. You've also missed all the inservices. I'm sure you are more than capable, but it's not ideal.

If you're discussing the timetable with principal (and dont mind putting yourself down) I certainly would be mentioning the fact that someone unqualified is building the initial foundation, and that it will be disruptive if you're not kept with them for the three years. Maybe dwelling on the maths is no good though if you just want to discuss the chemistry side of things.

aunt aggie · 03-07-2014 4:23pm

5th year maths wont be a cake walk either. If I'm remembering correctly these students may only have studied strand 1 and 2 at junior cert but will be faced with the full five strands at leaving cert. It could result in several gaps in understanding that will need to be identified and addressed by the subject teacher. Have you spoken to anyone in the Maths dept about your teaching these classes next year?

Peter Flynt · 03-07-2014 5:35pm

Funnily enough I'm reminded of this song recently. .

Given 15 classes (10 hours) to teach in a subject not recognised to teach. Normal?

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