Cost of setting up a website.

nikimere · 18-04-2008 1:54pm

niceirishfella wrote: »

your livliehood is at stake here cos people are copping on.........the game is up...........

nikimere wrote: »

...Saying that the whole industry is coming to an end because you can out-source at a cheaper rate is a stupid comment, and it just wont happen.

Mirror wrote: »

Nobody said that...

No in those exact words, but that's what he meant.

Obviously i am against everything a template stands for because i am a designer/developer. If you want to do it on the cheap it is the best way to go. You'll get a reasonably professional looking site.
I would suggest shop around Irish Web Development companies, not all are into the overpricing game. You will get a better end-product (99.99% of the time) if you can site down with your web dev company and discuss the project properly, see it evolve and guide them along the process to a finished product you can be proud of.

stooge · 18-04-2008 2:07pm

Mirror wrote: »

Nobody said that, I am all for keeping work in Ireland, I do the job myself, though as a spare time thing. And I don't believe it is/will die in this country, I just take issue with heggies very first response to the OP, "you can't". This is absolutely false, and unfair to the OP when he's just looking for some sound advice.

You really can't argue with this paragragh.

Saying 'you can't get a decent website for less than 500E' is just not true. There are decent people and decent companies doing exactly that. Why spend 1000+ on a website that may get exactly the same exposure as one that can be done for 500-?

If the OP wants value for money then that value may lie outside ireland. Thats a fact heggie and others will have to accept. Just because someone charges more doesnt mean they'll do a better job.

It's an interesting time in the irish economy atm and I am definitely one for keeping the money here rather than elsewhere but it boils down to being realistic about price and competitive. It you cant compete then 'get out of the kitchen'.

smemon · 18-04-2008 2:10pm

I've no doubt if you go with an Irish company you'll get a professional product & service - no doubt.

However most people living in the real world simply cannot afford to pay the prices. Why would we, when we can get the same job done elsewhere for half the cost or less?

It's like flying with aerlingus paying €200 to go to london when you can get there for €80 with ryanair. Why do it unless you can afford to?

Ok, false ecomony can come in to play, but not if you've done your homework which is what the OP is doing by posting here in fairness.

heggie · 18-04-2008 2:24pm

right, a few people are quoting me out of context. the OP looked for a QUALITY, that's a QUALITY website for 500, and I said you can't, I stand by that and have yet to be proven wrong. This threadis a farce anyhow, last thing I'll add is that I don't think Irish web designers are any more expensive than any other countries, not sure where that perception is coming from?

aidan_walsh · 18-04-2008 2:25pm

Quality is hugely subjective and is not something that can be quantified with a hyperlink alone.

Adam · 18-04-2008 2:27pm

heggie wrote: »

right, a few people are quoting me out of context. the OP looked for a QUALITY, that's a QUALITY website for 500, and I said you can't, I stand by that and have yet to be proven wrong. This threadis a farce anyhow, last thing I'll add is that I don't think Irish web designers are any more expensive than any other countries, not sure where that perception is coming from?

That's just plain ignorance.

It is a well known and widely accepted fact that web designers outside this country can be cheaper. They live in a different country, with a less inflated economy, have a lower cost of living, and a lower average rate of pay. Ergo, they charge less.

heggie · 18-04-2008 2:30pm

stop nitpicking, take the EU for example you know the point I was trying to make.

Adam · 18-04-2008 2:36pm

heggie wrote: »

stop nitpicking, take the EU for example you know the point I was trying to make.

Wrong again: http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm

You can't be so out of touch as to think that the entirity of the EU is going be be on even par?

On top of which, how the hell is that nitpicking, we didn't say outsource to somewhere not in the EU. Outsourcing means out of Ireland. Honestly... :rolleyes:

heggie · 18-04-2008 2:37pm

this has turned into a farce, to point in continuing conversation

Adam · 18-04-2008 2:39pm

heggie wrote: »

this has turned into a farce, to point in continuing conversation

I can live with that. The only farce though has been your arguments imo.

Sully · 18-04-2008 3:35pm

Very amusing argument. I do think that Ireland (and some other countries) are over priced when it comes to web design work. Not everyone, but there are a few companys who offer design services at steep prices but I feel all there work is the same (apart from slight changes of course), or the quality just isnt that good (design and development wise).

Some companies are brilliant and charge a fortune. There are companys who are excellent that can offer it cheaper. Its a mixed game but not everyone should be tarnished with the same brush.

heggie (and others) have made a good point. Designers and developers can spend an awful lot of time working with clients personally to ensure they get exactly what they want. They spend a lot of time doing the design / development to make sure that its professionaly done, of excellent quality and matches all standards web wide. The cost of living in Ireland compared to India isnt the same and it would not be worth our time to offer design services at 20euro a piece or even 500 a piece. Imagine spending hours on a project and only getting a few quid for it?

You can buy cheap labour for your car, for building your house, or for just about anything. Your not always guarnteed great service for a chaper price.

Adam · 18-04-2008 3:47pm

Sully wrote: »

Very amusing argument. I do think that Ireland (and some other countries) are over priced when it comes to web design work. Not everyone, but there are a few companys who offer design services at steep prices but I feel all there work is the same (apart from slight changes of course), or the quality just isnt that good (design and development wise).

Some companies are brilliant and charge a fortune. There are companys who are excellent that can offer it cheaper. Its a mixed game but not everyone should be tarnished with the same brush.

heggie (and others) have made a good point. Designers and developers can spend an awful lot of time working with clients personally to ensure they get exactly what they want. They spend a lot of time doing the design / development to make sure that its professionaly done, of excellent quality and matches all standards web wide. The cost of living in Ireland compared to India isnt the same and it would not be worth our time to offer design services at 20euro a piece or even 500 a piece. Imagine spending hours on a project and only getting a few quid for it?

You can buy cheap labour for your car, for building your house, or for just about anything. Your not always guarnteed great service for a chaper price.

You've said nothing that heggie hasn't already said, and haven't substantiated it. The point of the "amusing argument" was that heggie was wrong in saying the OP could not get a quality site for €500. This is not true.

And if you want to make a point about cheap labour, build a brochure website for me. Spend 20 hours on it, and I'll pay you ten euro an hour. That's €200. You wouldn't though. Not even close. However, I would. Because I do it part time, it's cash on the side for me. So for people like me, who do it as an extra source of income, it's going to be cheaper. If you live off it, you are forced to charge more. But just because you live off it doesn't justify charging five times as much as I would.

heggie · 18-04-2008 3:54pm

ugh, so Mirror, do you honestly think you can provide the same service as a full time freelancer or web agency?

niceirishfella · 18-04-2008 4:00pm

Heggie............Can we please all see examples of your work.........enough is enough!
Put your money where your mouse is.

Adam · 18-04-2008 4:15pm

heggie wrote: »

ugh, so Mirror, do you honestly think you can provide the same service as a full time freelancer or web agency?

Well excuse you but I can provide a better service than some around here that I know of to be perfectly honest. But that's not the argument, so now who's nitpicking? It's getting rather desperate.

heggie · 18-04-2008 4:19pm

don't doubt that Mirror, still didn't answer the question though which IS the very argument

Adam · 18-04-2008 4:24pm

heggie wrote: »

don't doubt that Mirror, still didn't answer the question though which IS the very argument

There is no answer. Or there are two answers. Yes, and no. Yes, I can do better than some, and no, I can't do better than others. Can you do better than part time freelancers?

CuLT · 18-04-2008 4:33pm

You can get an expensive suit tailored specifically for you if you've got the cash to burn; you can be sure it's unique and special for you. You'll probably look pretty suave, and other expensive suit wearers will be able to recognize you in the street.

You can get a very nice off-the-shelf suit where most people wouln't notice the difference between it and the tailored one (because not everybody memorizes the look of every suit every person wears), at a fraction the cost of the tailored one.

Or you can try and make a suit yourself if you really want to, for nothing; but god knows how it's going to end up. If you're only doing it for the laugh it doesn't matter, but if you're going for an interview you might want to reconsider.

I think this reasonbly succinctly describes the web design business.

Adam · 18-04-2008 4:52pm

CuLT wrote: »

You can get an expensive suit tailored specifically for you if you've got the cash to burn; you can be sure it's unique and special for you. You'll probably look pretty suave, and other expensive suit wearers will be able to recognize you in the street.

You can get a very nice off-the-shelf suit where most people wouln't notice the difference between it and the tailored one (because not everybody memorizes the look of every suit every person wears), at a fraction the cost of the tailored one.

Or you can try and make a suit yourself if you really want to, for nothing; but god knows how it's going to end up. If you're only doing it for the laugh it doesn't matter, but if you're going for an interview you might want to reconsider.

I think this reasonbly succinctly describes the web design business.

Very well said.

Trojan · 18-04-2008 5:48pm

shawnee wrote: »

I am setting up an alternative health business and I want to set up a website . The site will be probably about three to five pages and will be an information only site, which will show my telephone number. As I am costing this venture at present, any ideas where I can get a quality site set up without spending over 500 euro. I want it to be easily found on Google and yahoo. Would appreciate any ideas or help.

Hi Shawnee,

It is possible to get a website online for €500. Like most things in business, there are various trade-offs to be made.

The main consideration for you is that you may have to spend significant amounts of time on research, learning, and later on project management of the site. The other caveat I'd put on this is that the term "quality" is extremely subjective and what some people consider quality is average at best to others. This particularly applies to design.

Regarding being easily found on Google & Yahoo: if your business niche is not very competitive then you should be found fairly easily in the search engines, assuming that you hire a web developer with a knowledge of the basic principles. However, if your business niche is competitive then it is less likely that you will be easily found in the search engines for your target keywords. In that case, you will need to either learn a lot about, or invest in SEO for your site.

Finally, it may be possible to get a grant from your local county enterprise board for your website. For example, here is the relevant information for DCEB:
http://www.dceb.ie/financial-assistance/types-of-grants/commercial-website-development-grant

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Alastair.

Sully · 18-04-2008 5:57pm

Mirror wrote: »

You've said nothing that heggie hasn't already said, and haven't substantiated it. The point of the "amusing argument" was that heggie was wrong in saying the OP could not get a quality site for €500. This is not true.

I'm not saying that heggie is completely right but he has made good points. I'm sure you can get a website for €500 that would be pretty decent. Well, a brochure site anyway. Iv always disagreed with people charging in the area 2k for a basic site and iv said it on Boards also. I don't charge anywhere near that, and I don't plan on doing so.

Iv heard of Croatian designers charging €200 for a brochure website (didn't see the company's work, but a friend mentioned it to me) but the cost of living there is lower then Ireland.

And if you want to make a point about cheap labour, build a brochure website for me. Spend 20 hours on it, and I'll pay you ten euro an hour. That's €200.

That's just above min wage. Not many people with a good skill would go at that rate! A lot of freelancers charge about €20-25 an hour to do web work. Plus, not everyone can design and develop - so extra charges for either.

You wouldn't though. Not even close. However, I would. Because I do it part time, it's cash on the side for me. So for people like me, who do it as an extra source of income, it's going to be cheaper. If you live off it, you are forced to charge more. But just because you live off it doesn't justify charging five times as much as I would.

If your trying to make a living, it wouldn't be feasible to charge €25 for a site or €500. Saying that, I agree with your point on it being unacceptable to charge 5x over.

shawnee · 18-04-2008 11:08pm

Having read the posts , I am inclined to agee with TrickY Ds view. I am good at a number of things and great at a few. Website design I may do but it would take me a long time and I would prefer to find someone good, who understands my language and culture. Are u into doing sites yourself tricky D ? Would you consider setting up a site for me ? If you are interested I will make contact.;)

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 1:23pm

Sully wrote: »

Iv always disagreed with people charging in the area 2k for a basic site

Amazing really. I've never paid less than 2k for a bespoke design. And that's before mark-up and development. You know why the designer I work with charges €2,500-€4,500 for bespoke site designs? Because he's a professional. He's extremely talented, works extremely hard, spends inordinate amounts of time and late nights honing and practicing his profession. His life revolves around design. He produces better design (IMO) than anyone else in the country and he is paid accordingly. Similarly, I charge a certain amount for development. Mainly because, like the designer I work with, I spend a lot of time making sure I can do the job right. I spend a lot of my out-of-work hours mastering technologies such as actionscript, PHP, CSS, UJS and absorbing as much information as a I can about IA, usability, etc.

This is what clients expect, or at least should expect, when they hire a team to work on their Web project. Talent, skill, knowledge and ability. Something that seems to be massively lacking by certain people on this thread.

yeraulone · 19-04-2008 3:11pm

So anyone who builds a website for €500 is unprofessional?

OP, you should be able to get a decent site with the budget you specified, especially as the site will be quite small. You will probably have to look harder, but there are plenty of Irish designers who take a lot of pride in their work, and treat every design and build the same.

Read up on SEO so you have an understanding of how to get results in search engines, and how the designer can help you achieve this. Review portfolios of anyone you are thinking about hiring, to make sure they can do the job. You could also consider learning how to update the content on your website yourself as it incredibly easy to do. Google loves fresh/new content, and that can help you achieve higher rankings.

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 3:35pm

yeraulone wrote: »

So anyone who builds a website for €500 is unprofessional?

I would certainly question their ability to do a job of professional standard, yes. Mind you, as someone who's been doing this for over 10 years, my definition of a professional job varies wildly from a lot of self-professed 'Web designers' definition.

yeraulone wrote: »

OP, you should be able to get a decent site with the budget you specified

No, you won't. Not a bespoke solution anyway. Your best bet is to have a look at Template Monster. You can get very competitively priced hosting and domains from Blacknight. You'll be well under budget with this and you can probably get someone reasonably Web-savvy to help you customise and deploy your site.

OP, please don't listen to the self-proclaimed 'professionals' on this thread. By all means get your site done on the cheap but do it the tried and trusted way. A Template Monster site is infinitely better than handing over €500 to an incompetent cowboy or trusting someone in Asia to do the job properly.

yeraulone · 19-04-2008 3:46pm

That’s fair enough Ken. Personally, I'd examine a designer’s portfolio and past work experiences, review their references, get to know them and see how they respond to my questions and comments. That’s how I'd judge if they were professional or not.

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 3:54pm

yeraulone wrote: »

That’s fair enough Ken. Personally, I'd examine a designer’s portfolio and past work experiences, review their references, get to know them and see how they respond to my questions and comments. That’s how I'd judge if the where professional or not.

A designer's suitability to do the job isn't in the eye of the uninitiated client. You will largely be judged by your peers as well. If I tell a client I am a master chef and they don't know the difference between rump steak and fillet mignon then that doesn't necessarily make me a master chef.

I appreciate that there's no regulation in this industry - it's a free market and that's fine. What does annoy me though are those that are devaluing the industry by producing crap and charging pittance. If you want to compete, you shouldn't just be competing on price.

Sully · 19-04-2008 4:01pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Amazing really. I've never paid less than 2k for a bespoke design. And that's before mark-up and development. You know why the designer I work with charges €2,500-€4,500 for bespoke site designs? Because he's a professional. He's extremely talented, works extremely hard, spends inordinate amounts of time and late nights honing and practicing his profession. His life revolves around design. He produces better design (IMO) than anyone else in the country and he is paid accordingly.

Its unfair to say that every Irish designer but yours is not as talented. There are some very talented designers in Ireland, who spend a lot of time working on projects (day and night), meeting with clients, learning to adapt to new things and studying new languages and the best way to use them.

This is what clients expect, or at least should expect, when they hire a team to work on their Web project. Talent, skill, knowledge and ability. Something that seems to be massively lacking by certain people on this thread.

I agree, but I dont think you should be charging an arm and a leg for the work. For such a basic site, some of the asking prices in Ireland is unbelivable!

yeraulone wrote: »

That’s fair enough Ken. Personally, I'd examine a designer’s portfolio and past work experiences, review their references, get to know them and see how they respond to my questions and comments. That’s how I'd judge if they were professional or not.

Agreed.

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 4:20pm

Sully wrote: »

Its unfair to say that every Irish designer but yours is not as talented. There are some very talented designers in Ireland

I'm not saying that there aren't other talented designers out there, of course there are. In my opinion, the designer that I work with is the best in the country but that's just my opinion and that's why I choose to work with him! I've worked with a good few really good designers in Ireland over the years though. Having said this, the only ones that I know that I would consider to be of a professional standard wouldn't even entertain the notion of a bespoke design for €500.

Sully wrote: »

I agree, but I dont think you should be charging an arm and a leg for the work. For such a basic site, some of the asking prices in Ireland is unbelivable!

I don't charge an arm and a leg. I charge what I consider to be a reasonable price and certainly less than most larger agencies. If you knock out a bespoke design with markup and site build inside 2 days for €500 then you're not doing it right... or you're one of the most talented people on earth. This is a fact.

Sully · 19-04-2008 7:07pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

I'm not saying that there aren't other talented designers out there, of course there are. In my opinion, the designer that I work with is the best in the country but that's just my opinion and that's why I choose to work with him! I've worked with a good few really good designers in Ireland over the years though. Having said this, the only ones that I know that I would consider to be of a professional standard wouldn't even entertain the notion of a bespoke design for €500.

I don't charge an arm and a leg. I charge what I consider to be a reasonable price and certainly less than most larger agencies. If you knock out a bespoke design with markup and site build inside 2 days for €500 then you're not doing it right... or you're one of the most talented people on earth. This is a fact.

I don't charge €500, but I don't think asking for over 2k for a basic site is acceptable. Thats just my opinion, and I think the designer that works for me is very skilled and talented.

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 7:09pm

Sully wrote: »

I don't think asking for over 2k for a basic site is acceptable. Thats just my opinion, and I think the designer that works for me is very skilled and talented.

How long does it take your designer to create a bespoke design for a site? Let's say, hypothetically, 3 templates and then mark-up and build the site?

tricky D · 19-04-2008 7:19pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Because he's a professional.

Yup. Understands business. Some people just don't understand costs, quality and value for money.

@ Shawnee PM sent

Sully · 19-04-2008 7:23pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

How long does it take your designer to create a bespoke design for a site? Let's say, hypothetically, 3 templates and then mark-up and build the site?

Takes about a weeksh maybe to get a design together, then another while tweaking it if the client requires changes, and then its passed onto the developer who usually puts it together in about the same amount of time.

Thats for a basic site with only a few pages.

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 7:26pm

Sully wrote: »

Takes about a weeksh maybe to get a design together, then another while tweaking it if the client requires changes, and then its passed onto the developer who usually puts it together in about the same amount of time.

Thats for a basic site with only a few pages.

That's a bit longer than I had in mind. So effectively you're saying that it's unacceptable to charge €2,000 for 2 weeks work? I don't think you're living in the real world TBH.

aidan_walsh · 19-04-2008 9:18pm

shawnee wrote:

Would you consider setting up a site for me ? If you are interested I will make contact.

shawnee, please read the charter. If you want someone to create your website, please go to adverts.ie.

tricky D wrote:

@ Shawnee PM sent

tricky D, please do not try to solicit work on this board.

chat2joe · 19-04-2008 10:03pm

There are relatively few costs involved in designing a website other than paying for the time of the designer. It's up to that web designer to put the price on this. It's very true that there are some excellent designers who are doing great work and charging a lot for this. As established designers they should and it's great that the market is there for it. But if someone is offering to do the job for less, you can't automatically assume that the end result will be any less.

You shouldn't have to pay extra to satisfy some web designers inflated ego.

There are a lot of up and coming designers that may want to develop a good portfolio and their main aim at this point is to expand that portfolio with a wide range of projects rather than extract the maximum possible from the clients wallet.

The Mighty Ken · 19-04-2008 10:53pm

chat2joe wrote: »

But if someone is offering to do the job for less, you can't automatically assume that the end result will be any less.

You shouldn't have to pay extra to satisfy some web designers inflated ego.

There are a lot of up and coming designers that may want to develop a good portfolio and their main aim at this point is to expand that portfolio with a wide range of projects rather than extract the maximum possible from the clients wallet.

To summarise what you just said - you get what you pay for! Saying that talented, experienced designers charge a lot because they have inflated egos is stupid. It's because they produce better work.

Sully · 20-04-2008 12:35am

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

That's a bit longer than I had in mind. So effectively you're saying that it's unacceptable to charge €2,000 for 2 weeks work? I don't think you're living in the real world TBH.

Well maybe not 2k, it really depends on a lot of factors - quality, portfolio, customer service and so on. There are a heck of a lot of companies, and a Waterford one (which won awards for **** sake!) in particular that sticks in my mind that charges to much for work that doesnt vary per client. I hate being able to go around and spot a companys work before checking the footer. Its a bad sign if all there work is similar IMO. There are to many companies charging a fortune for quality work that isnt great.

Can I see your designers past work? Id love to see (not being sarcastic) some of the past work, you have me entriqued!

The Mighty Ken · 20-04-2008 12:48am

Sully wrote: »

Well maybe not 2k, it really depends on a lot of
factors - quality, portfolio, customer service and so on.

Absolutely. The experience and ability of the people working on the site will largely determine the cost. I just think that it's unfair for anyone to tell anyone else that they're charging too much for anything without a huge amount of industry and business experience.

Sully wrote: »

There are a heck of a lot of companies, and a Waterford one (which won awards for **** sake!) in particular that sticks in my mind that charges to much for work that doesnt vary per client. I hate being able to go around and spot a companys work before checking the footer. Its a bad sign if all there work is similar IMO. There are to many companies charging a fortune for quality work that isnt great.

The majority of Irish Web shops produce poor work unfortunately. There are a handful of decent agencies but they're few and far between and yes, a lot of the poorer companies charge a fortune for what they're actually offering. The big problem is that many clients don't really know what to expect from a creative or technical point of view and end up getting ripped-off.

Sully wrote: »

Can I see your designers past work? Id love to see (not being sarcastic) some of the past work, you have me entriqued!

PM sent!

AARRRGH · 21-04-2008 6:08pm

heggie wrote: »

An example of a sub 500 euro website. either one of your own, or outsourced, or whatever

http://www.staff.ie
http://www.dole.ie

There's two. I own them.

These topics always depress me. Outsourcing is really cheap. Just because wages in Albania are low does not mean everyone there has terrible coding or design skills. It just means wages are low.

Low wages does not equal lesser skills. If this were the case, Irish people would be less skilled than the Swiss, the Yanks, etc. As we all know, that's not the case.

If you are on a low budget, go to the likes of scriptlance.com and post a detailed description of what you need. You'll get it all done for under $200.

US hosts are dirt cheap. Forgetting about the cheap dollar, you get about twice as much for your money with a US host. If you don't believe me check out theplanet.com. I use them. They are excellent and offer (IMO) unrivalled customer service.

If you want to hire an expensive Irish developer, by all means go for it, but you will not be getting value for money.

Please don't attack me for this post. I am sorry if you are an Irish designer and you feel threatened by outsourcing, but outsourcing is a fact of life now and you're going to have to face it at some stage.

The Mighty Ken · 21-04-2008 6:23pm

Two points to make, dublindude:

1) Both of your sites are poorly built. And that's only after having a cursory look under the bonnet. Staff.ie has a clean and functional design; Dole.ie looks pretty crude.

2) A staggering number of potential clients approach me each year after having been burned after outsourcing to India, Romania, etc. I say potential as I generally refuse to work with them as they're still looking to do things on the cheap.

If most (or even all) of the outsourcing companies in Asia or Eastern Europe can't compete on quality, why should I (or any competent designer) compete on price? Your advice to the OP isn't good advice... but it's entirely his/her prerogative to do whatever he/she likes. If people want to do things on the cheap, I wouldn't necessarily feel threatened. Go for it, I say! I'll see you in a few months. :cool:

AARRRGH · 21-04-2008 6:30pm

I don't mind your opinions on my sites (everyone has different opinions on every site - that's cool) but your statement that countries in Asia and Eastern Europe can't produce quality is really unfair.

Can you clear this up once and for all -

Why are Asians and Eastern Europeans so bad at design work and programming? Is it because...

1. They are they less intelligent than Western Europeans?
2. They have bad eye sight?
3. Their Universities, books and design tools are inferior to ours?
4. Some other physical or mental issue?
5. Their wages are lower and you feel extremely threatened by this?

I find your anti-Asian and anti-Eastern European comments to be borderline racist. You cannot make such sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

Please, explain why they cannot produce quality work.

If you mean to say "I have heard of some people who were unhappy with the website they outsourced", that's fine, but you could apply the same anecdotal evidence to Irish designers.

PS If "The Mighty Ken" = Ken Stanley = Laslo, we've had this conversation before, so let's not go through it again.

The Mighty Ken · 21-04-2008 8:02pm

dublindude wrote: »

I don't mind your opinions on my sites (everyone has different opinions on every site - that's cool) but your statement that countries in Asia and Eastern Europe can't produce quality is really unfair.

As someone who knows a lot about Web design and development and has been doing it since the industry was born, I can tell you it's as fair as it gets. The quality of a lot (not all) but a lot of the work that's being outsourced is poor. It's my professional opinion.

dublindude wrote: »

Can you clear this up once and for all -

Why are Asians and Eastern Europeans so bad at design work and programming? Is it because...

It's because the quality of the work that I see is poor. No other reason.

dublindude wrote: »

I find your anti-Asian and anti-Eastern European comments to be borderline racist.

You're obviously lacking even a very basic level of intelligence then.

dublindude wrote: »

You cannot make such sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

I'm merely speaking from experience. That's hardly making sweeping generalisations.

dublindude wrote: »

Please, explain why they cannot produce quality work.

I'm not saying people in Asia or Eastern Europe can't. I'm simply saying that I haven't seen any. Am I still a racist? :rolleyes:

dublindude wrote: »

If you mean to say "I have heard of some people who were unhappy with the website they outsourced", that's fine, but you could apply the same anecdotal evidence to Irish designers.

Definitely. However, I've never met anyone happy with a job they've outsourced apart from yourself. In my opinion, the quality of your sites is poor and I stand by the assertion that it's likely that someone who doesn't know exactly what they're doing is going to get taken for a ride by outsourcing. I'm just sharing my opinion and experience.

dublindude wrote: »

PS If "The Mighty Ken" = Ken Stanley = Laslo, we've had this conversation before, so let's not go through it again.

Eh? Chip on your shoulder about something?

aidan_walsh · 21-04-2008 8:09pm

Try to remain civil, please.

The Mighty Ken · 21-04-2008 8:12pm

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Try to remain civil, please.

No problem. I've expressed my opinion and I think I'll leave it at that to be honest.

AARRRGH · 21-04-2008 8:15pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

The quality of a lot (not all) but a lot of the work that's being outsourced is poor. It's my professional opinion.

You run an Irish design company. Your opinion is completely biased and its aim is to scare people away from outsourcing.

I find it extremely laughable that you believe the only route to a decent website is through hiring an Irish designer.

Ireland is an expensive country. That is why Irish designers are so expensive. It has NOTHING to do with quality. Anyone with any ounce of cop on can see that.

Outsourcing websites like scriptlance.com, elance.com, rentacoder.com, and getacoder.com are extremely busy. There is a reason they are extremely busy: outsourcing works.

The only reason to use an Irish designer is because they live in Ireland and are covered by the Irish legal system. It's easy to sue them if they screw you over. That's about it.

The Mighty Ken · 21-04-2008 8:39pm

dublindude wrote: »

You run an Irish design company. Your opinion is completely biased and its aim is to scare people away from outsourcing.

My opinion could certainly be construed as biased but I am actually telling the truth on a number of points.

I have spoken to a lot of people who have had bad experiences outsourcing Web work in recent years. As I said, you're the only one that I've spoken to that was happy with their experience.
I am being completely impartial, believe it or not, when I say that I have yet to see a decent commercial Web project outsourced. I'm quite sure there are plenty out there, I just haven't seen any. I've seen plenty of disasters.

So, even though I may be 'biased', these are truths and facts. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Please, don't insinuate that I'm lying anymore as that's not fair.

dublindude wrote: »

I find it extremely laughable that you believe the only route to a decent website is through hiring an Irish designer.

Did I say that? If I were a client looking to commission a Web project, I'd probably look towards the UK, Sweden or maybe the US, depending on what I wanted. The majority of stuff coming out of Ireland is crap to be honest.

dublindude wrote: »

Ireland is an expensive country. That is why Irish designers are so expensive. It has NOTHING to do with quality.

You're right and you're wrong. Irish designers are much more expensive than, say, designers in India. In many cases, the designer in India may be much more competent, and the more expensive Irish designer may be terrible.

On the other hand, if you want very high-end design then, in my opinion, you can't find it in a lot of these cheaper countries. Believe me, I've tried! My designer costs an absolute fortune. I'm happy to pay it because I think he is head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd. And with all due respect, you can't comment on quality if you don't know the difference.

dublindude wrote: »

Anyone with any ounce of cop on can see that.

Look - show me a country in India that can produce the kind of quality of work that Happy Cog or Fantasy Interactive are producing for a fraction of the price, and I am forever in your debt!

dublindude wrote: »

Outsourcing websites like scriptlance.com, elance.com, rentacoder.com, and getacoder.com are extremely busy. There is a reason they are extremely busy: outsourcing works.

That's your opinion. I'm entitled to disagree... and I do disagree.

You seem to be getting very, very vexed here dublindude. I'm merely expressing an opinion so I'd appreciate it if you didn't start accusing me of bias and lies. A lot of people on this thread have asked for examples of professional quality sites produced abroad on the cheap, and we've still yet to see any. Screaming 'rip-off' and 'bias' at the top of ones lungs isn't proving any kind of point.

AARRRGH · 21-04-2008 8:53pm

I agree with you that it'd be a good idea to use a local company (or at least one which can be held accountable - so within the EU) if you need a really expensive, advanced website like ryanair.com.

However no one here, including the OP, is talking about a website costing hundreds of thousands. He wants a 5 page brochure website. There is no reason why he can't outsource this.

PS I am getting a bit vexed, and I apologise for this, but I think people are being very unfair by calling Asians/Eastern Europeans unskilled/incapable of doing quality work

The Mighty Ken · 21-04-2008 9:05pm

dublindude wrote: »

There is no reason why he can't outsource this.

You're absolutely right. He'll probably make his budget of €500 stretch a lot further if he outsources than if he tries to get it done in Ireland for the same price.

All I'm saying is that there's a big difference between professional, high-end design/development and cheap-as-chips outsourced work. If there were incredible designers in India charging next to nothing for their brilliant work, I'd be using them. Like I said - let me know where I can find them, and I'm forever in your debt.

Am I still a borderline racist?

The Mighty Ken · 21-04-2008 9:06pm

dublindude wrote: »

PS I am getting a bit vexed, and I apologise for this, but I think people are being very unfair by calling Asians/Eastern Europeans unskilled/incapable of doing quality work

Nobody is calling Asians/Easten Europeans unskilled. That's ridiculous and you know it is. We're having a grown-up discussion about the quality of the projects that are outsourced to various parts of the world. Leave the childish accusations of racism to the teeny boppers in the After Hours forum.

Cost of setting up a website.

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