Is Taking the Bus Really a Matter of Consumer Choice or the Last Resort?

Transport21 Fan · 27-07-2006 12:13am #1

Now before you accuse me of bus bashing (I am not) - I was doing some research on the new "Superbuses" which are being rolled out as alternatvies to light rail investment (mainly in the UK) and it turns out that these QBCs, E-Ways, B-Ways and so forth are failing miserably whereever they are being set up. (Cork take note)

By contrast whenever a light rail system is built (as we know this by Dublin) the citizens for the most part fall in love with it (with Sheffield Supertram being the odd man out).

This love of Light Rail/Metros is very true in the USA were light rail is bringing back public transport usership in US cities with long dead public transport cultures. Even though buses were provided by the local transit authorities and quiet often with comprehensive and reliable services, they ran empty most of the day. A light rail system or metro is built and HEY PRESTO... the trams are packed...urban regeneration and extentions to the system soon follow.

The bus does not do this. It does not capture the public by choice. It does not regenerate cities...it does not have any loyalty - only dependence.

So this brings me to the title of this post. Is bus based public transport really only for people who have no other option in public transport?

If a city really wants to develop public transport, then is the bus only for the non-car users, and therefore Light Rail/Metro and Commuter Rail the only real carrot to woo the car commuter out of their cars? The anecdotal evidence would suggest an overwhemling YES. Bus transport for urban public transport is the transit of last resort from what I can tell. I would be interesting in hearing what others think.

After this research, I am starting to wonder if buses, and the more sexed-up versions such as QBCs and so on - really just a waste of money and over the long-run and would investment in commuter rail and in an urban setting Light Rail/Metro the only real sensible option, in 21st public transport choice?

Bus based public transport seems to be most sucessful in regional and inter-city transport as a rival to the train. But in an urban setting, there seems to be no real loyalty to the bus unless the person cannot drive for some reason and the bus is the only way they can get around.

Either way, this "Superbus" concept seems to be a complete turkey doomed to failure.

Nothingcompares · 27-07-2006 12:15am

I have no car. I hate taking the bus. I live some distance from the nearest dart station (4km) and often go out of my way to take a dart rather than a bus. However, the bus does the job.

bk · 27-07-2006 12:38am

Transport21 Fan wrote:

So this brings me to the title of this post. Is bus based public transport really only for people who have no other option in public transport?

Yes, but with one caveat, many car drivers take the bus due to the high cost of city parking.

BTW About Cork, a relatively minor investment in buses in Cork would vastly improve the service. This would only cost a fraction of a Luas line and be far more beneficial.

markf909 · 27-07-2006 8:15am

I dont own a car and I despise taking the bus, I will go out of my way to ensure I catch the train when I make trips to the city.
The bus is just too slow with stops every 50m (literally in some places) and the potential to have low-lifes ruin the journey too great.

Navan Junction · 27-07-2006 8:33am

Transport21 Fan wrote:

A light rail system or metro is built and HEY PRESTO... the trams are packed...urban regeneration and extentions to the system soon follow.

I agree. But jeez it's expensive.

I have to say apart from being stuffy, the big problem I used to find with buses was leg room - and I'm about average in height.

I used to prefer to stand.

5uspect · 27-07-2006 8:35am

I'm bus ridden here in limerick. I don't think I have any great affinity to trains over buses except for long haul travel across the country. If buses were more sensibly timetabled with the scumbags shot on sight things would be a lot better.
I really don't think the whims of people are worth the extra expense of a light rail system when buses can be as effective. Look at Germany - excellent combination of light rail and buses in most cities. The two services complement each other rather than compete. Take for example Wuppertal, a quite small city. Its located in a river valley and essentially consists of two old smaller cities grown into one so its quite long. They've build an inverted monorail over the river which services transport across the city. The excellent bus services then feed in and out from the two main city centres to the suburbs. The tickets are the same for everything and they're quite cheap but the main point is that the different services work as part of a greater system. The monorail has quite a lot of charm too I suppose...

MiniD · 27-07-2006 9:07am

The bus does not do this. It does not capture the public by choice. It does not regenerate cities...it does not have any loyalty - only dependence.

I don't think the fact that people depend on the bus gives it any less importance. Infact, I would say that because people depend on the bus service, this should make it all the more prominent when getting funding and priority. While your comments on the performance of QBCs in the UK may be true, here in Dublin the QBCs have proved to be successful.

I would agree that when making long journeys the train is much better, because of comfort and speed. But this option also comes with a higher cost, and for many people needing to travel long distance at a cheap price, the bus is a far better choice.

On the topic of passengers loyalty to their bus, I have seen many people and community groups kick up when any changes to their route were being made.

thewing · 27-07-2006 9:10am

I'd sooner walk than take the bus, I cycle/drive/walk to luas(bout 15 min walk away).

Archeron · 27-07-2006 9:17am

Now that I live outside Dublin, and commute, I would always choose the Bus Eirreann bus where possible. Sadly, as I need my van for my job, this is really only feasible when I go into Dublin to socialize.

However, when i did live in Dublin, taking the bus really was the last resort, simply down to the fact that so many sh*tbags do be on the bus and they make everybody uncomfortable. Not to mention their smoking, anti social behaviour and the sheer stink of unwashed bodies. This doesnt really seem to happen with the Bus Eirrean coaches, hence the reason I enjoy being driven to the city by someone else.

markpb · 27-07-2006 9:29am

I think it's an unfair question since most people in Ireland have never seen a decent bus service. The obvious exception are people living along the 46A route in Dublin

Based on what I've read and no statistical proof at all, I think you're right that in most places, rail has a stronger ability to draw people out of their cars than buses do. Cubrito is the most common example of this. The LA MTA Orange line is the exception.

Given that a decent QBC (not like those in Dublin) can be built for a fraction of the cost of even a light rail system, most cities will have to chose a combination of the two.

Red Alert · 27-07-2006 9:40am

i think ideas like guided busways and buses are just silly to be honest. it's the tail trying to wag the dog.

the 'trouble' as i see it with QBC's etc is that they stifle anything further. for example UCD would warrant even an on-street tramway from dublin city centre, but since the 46A has a QBC there we'll never see that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-07-2006 9:52am

The problem with buses I find is that the only realiable ones seem to be in and out of the city. I live in Dundrum, work in Terenure and socialise often in Cabinttely/Sallynoggin. If I'm going not going to town have to walk for 30/40 minutes just to get to the bus-stop. NAd that's beofre you deal with the unrelaibility of the 17/75 in mid-route.

With this weather, though, it's been walking all the way...

lostexpectation · 27-07-2006 9:54am

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Now before you accuse me of bus bashing (I am not) - I was doing some research on the new "Superbuses" which are being rolled out as alternatvies to light rail investment (mainly in the UK) and it turns out that these QBCs, E-Ways, B-Ways and so forth are failing miserably whereever they are being set up. (Cork take note)

Either way, this "Superbus" concept seems to be a complete turkey doomed to failure.

buses do there job for thousands upon thousands, their biggest problem is too much traffic, its just your prejudices shouting again.

markpb · 27-07-2006 10:01am

lostexpectation wrote:

buses do there job for thousands upon thousands, their biggest problem is too much traffic, its just your prejudices shouting again.

Buses serve thousands of people in Dublin because there's no real alternative. Between a mixture of silly routes (bad city planning) and lack of priority or bus lanes (city councils fault), it's frustrating trying to get anywhere. Just because people use them doesn't make them good.

lostexpectation · 27-07-2006 11:03am

markpb wrote:

Buses serve thousands of people in Dublin because there's no real alternative. Between a mixture of silly routes (bad city planning) and lack of priority or bus lanes (city councils fault), it's frustrating trying to get anywhere. Just because people use them doesn't make them good.

but T21 arguement is so silly , he saying alot people take the bus because they don't have a car... of course they bloody do, if convience were the only factor then T21 might be right. Of course he not.

I prefer to take the train rather then bus to town, cos its quicker etc, it amazing how I choose to take the bus if its not near the dart, well blow me down? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Slice · 27-07-2006 11:10am

I think the Stillorgan QBC proves that busses can be quite successful - Maybe I'm wrong but isn't the patronage on that route greater than Luas Green line?

I think this shows that buses as a mode of transport can be successful and that when they fail elsewhere the failure can be put down to the implementation over the mode of transport used?

I don't see the point of guided buses to be honest - there just isn't a big enough differentiation from ordinary busses compared to tram against bus that makes them any more attractive.

Are guided buses planned for Cork? I think more importantly Belfast should take note since their plans for guided buses are far more advanced.

markpb · 27-07-2006 11:11am

lostexpectation wrote:

but T21 arguement is so silly , he saying alot people take the bus because they don't have a car... of course they bloody do, if convience were the only factor then T21 might be right. Of course he not.

I guess you could read lots of things into his post but I have a feeling he's trying to convince us that building super-QBCs instead of light rail is a bad idea because it won't convince as many car drivers to change to mass transport.

In that respect, he's right but I don't think its as simple as that because (in Ireland), building a bus lane is much easier than building a super QBC because politicians are less likely to interfere so its more likely to ever get off the ground.

paulm17781 · 27-07-2006 11:16am

markpb wrote:

I think it's an unfair question since most people in Ireland have never seen a decent bus service. The obvious exception are people living along the 46A route in Dublin

Every day on the 8.20 145 from D'Olier St. The same skanger gets on and rolls a joint at the back. I would complain to a driver but they are different ones each morning.

145 and 46a are similar routes.

markpb · 27-07-2006 11:24am

paulm17781 wrote:

Every day on the 8.20 145 from D'Olier St. The same skanger gets on and rolls a joint at the back. I would complain to a driver but they are different ones each morning.

Each morning I can wait anywhere from 5 minutes to 30 minutes (depending on traffic) for the bus to get the 1.5 miles from the bus depot to my house. It might take another 15 minutes to get the next 1/4 mile to to get off the main road so we can spend the next half hour meandering round some housing estates. We usually spend between 5-15 minutes sitting in one of them because the timetable states the time we leave that estate. After all that, we make our way slowly down the slightly-too-narrow bus lane on Malahide road as far as Clontarf where I get off.

When the 46A reaches pitiful levels of service like that, let me know so I can feel some sympathy for you :-)

BrianD · 27-07-2006 1:07pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Now before you accuse me of bus bashing (I am not) - I was doing some research on the new "Superbuses" which are being rolled out as alternatvies to light rail investment (mainly in the UK) and it turns out that these QBCs, E-Ways, B-Ways and so forth are failing miserably whereever they are being set up. (Cork take note)

By contrast whenever a light rail system is built (as we know this by Dublin) the citizens for the most part fall in love with it (with Sheffield Supertram being the odd man out).

This love of Light Rail/Metros is very true in the USA were light rail is bringing back public transport usership in US cities with long dead public transport cultures. Even though buses were provided by the local transit authorities and quiet often with comprehensive and reliable services, they ran empty most of the day. A light rail system or metro is built and HEY PRESTO... the trams are packed...urban regeneration and extentions to the system soon follow.

The bus does not do this. It does not capture the public by choice. It does not regenerate cities...it does not have any loyalty - only dependence.

So this brings me to the title of this post. Is bus based public transport really only for people who have no other option in public transport?

If a city really wants to develop public transport, then is the bus only for the non-car users, and therefore Light Rail/Metro and Commuter Rail the only real carrot to woo the car commuter out of their cars? The anecdotal evidence would suggest an overwhemling YES. Bus transport for urban public transport is the transit of last resort from what I can tell. I would be interesting in hearing what others think.

After this research, I am starting to wonder if buses, and the more sexed-up versions such as QBCs and so on - really just a waste of money and over the long-run and would investment in commuter rail and in an urban setting Light Rail/Metro the only real sensible option, in 21st public transport choice?

Bus based public transport seems to be most sucessful in regional and inter-city transport as a rival to the train. But in an urban setting, there seems to be no real loyalty to the bus unless the person cannot drive for some reason and the bus is the only way they can get around.

Either way, this "Superbus" concept seems to be a complete turkey doomed to failure.

Jaysus, I thought you were supposed to be a public transport consultant!!

The answer is simple and you should know this as a consultant, Every urban transport is based on a multi-modal means of transport combining bus, light rail, heavy rail, sometimes ferry and so on. Each has it's advantages depending on the application, availability and demand. Therefore a heavy rail link with feeder buses might be appropriate in one situation or a QBC might be appropriate for another. Indeed, in some instances a QBC may suffice present demand with a planned replacement in the future with another transport mode. Unfortunately, we don't plan this infrastructure in a proactive way we simply react. There are other instances where the use of one means of transit is physically impossible. You also have to look at demand ... replacing, say, all our QBC's would not be efficient given the low density sprawl of Dublin. In fact, bus is best suited to Dublin because of this factor unless there is a defined spatial strategy of 'bulking up' the city. Indeed, some times, as in the case of the DART the increase in density followed the line.

Obviously some modes are more attractive than others in inspiring people to use public transport. A case in point would be the tram in Dublin (though if you ever wanted an example of two turkeys here you are) which is highly visible, modern and speedy means of transport. This may not always be true but it is a perception. I believe that motorists who have a public transport alternative available will always be harder to persuade. They have a door-to-door mode and will be looking for a speedier and more convenient journey by transport. Therefore their expectations are higher (though not always justified) than those who rely on public transport only.

It also depends on how it is marketed and the heritage of the bus company. Despite having a modern fleet, Dublin Bus does not have a particularly good heritage. We think strikes, old and dirty buses. This is also the case in the UK. Although this may have changed the perceptions haven't.

It is interesting, that in many cases in Dublin, buses did replace light rail in the past so in some cases we are just bringing back what we had before We are only bus dependent because this is the only mode that we have invested in.

For me, public transport will always be multi-modal and the key is placing it under the one brand name and that every aspect of it is integrated. There is certainly no grasp of this in the RPA who see themselves in competition with all other providers.

paulm17781 · 27-07-2006 1:44pm

markpb wrote:

When the 46A reaches pitiful levels of service like that, let me know so I can feel some sympathy for you :-)

I agree that the 46A is the best route in Dublin. It really suffers from too many stops though. It can take an hour to do 6 miles because it stops so frequently. Most of the stops aren't even needed ffs.

3 at RTE!
2 in Stillorgan!

I could list more.....

silverharp · 27-07-2006 1:49pm

I think the bus routes need to be simplified, with fall less stops, 1 stop every Km, and live timetables to ones mobile.

The main problem with buses is the uncertainty, you don't know if you have just missed one and you might have to wait 30min for the next one.

Transport21 Fan · 27-07-2006 2:34pm

markpb wrote:

I guess you could read lots of things into his post

According to another thead lostexpectation proudly announced he ignores my posts. Now he reads them....:rolleyes:

Anyways, I now consider Dublin to be a post-bus public transport situation. Transport 21 more or less ended Dublin Bus as a monoploy provider across huge segments of the city.

On a completely unrelated matter, why are so many fellas on this board madly in love with blokes in CIE uniforms? There is nothing wrong with having a kinky sex life and enjoying all aspects of human sexuality among consenting adults. That's cool with me. But read this board, one often gets the impression that some of the people here who have the hots for CIE bus and train drivers tend to confuse this sexual desire for CIE staff with public transport provision and devlopments.

I wish these lads well in their CIE uniform fetish, but please do not be confusing that with what other folk want from public transport. Please bear this in mind. Love is beautiful, sexual kinkiness for CIE uniforms is fine, but that's not what we fund public transport for.

Mind you, even this place is not too bad compared to other boards. On other bus and train message boards are literally endless love letters to bus and train drivers (CIE bus and train drivers ONLY of course). This whole sub-culture of romantic feelings for CIE staff and defending them no matter what, and in an almost Victorian Rudyard Kiplingesque/Enid Blython way, which is very interesting.

I get the impression that half these people are pissed off they never grew up as plastacine figures in Trumpton or Campbell Wick Green.

paulm17781 · 27-07-2006 2:48pm

silverharp wrote:

I think the bus routes need to be simplified, with fall less stops, 1 stop every Km

Make it 500m and I think it would be a winner. 1km is too much.

T21Fan, must you attack people's sexuallity if they disagree with you? It does little to strengthen an argument and makes you look like an 8 year old. Most of your posts are quite witty, there is no need for such childish rebuttles*.

* I said butt!

Transport21 Fan · 27-07-2006 2:56pm

I am not attacking their sexuality at all! Jesus, there is enough dirt on me out there FFS. I make no bones about the fact I often feel aroused by the sight of model trains running around in a ciricle. I just don;t expect taxpayers to fund it that's all.

In fact I am encouraging them to be more open about their feelings and desires for CIE staff. It's a beautiful thing. I just wish they would not confused this love for CIE staff with public transport development - that's all. Keep the two seperated.

If some people hang around Donnybrook garage at closing time in the hope to get a lick of Anto and Deco's arse-sweat residue off the 46a driver's seat, then god bless them. Just please realise it is Transport21 not Transport69.

Alright, the moderators can ban me now.

jd · 27-07-2006 3:00pm

paulm17781 wrote:

T21Fan, must you attack people's sexuallity if they disagree with you? It does little to strengthen an argument and makes you look like an 8 year old. Most of your posts are quite witty, there is no need for such childish rebuttles*.

* I said butt!

Damn you, I think you've woken up Victor ..:)
jd

BuffyBot · 27-07-2006 3:40pm

Even though buses were provided by the local transit authorities and quiet often with comprehensive and reliable services, they ran empty most of the day.

You have to take into consideration the "car" culture of the US, plus the fact that bus transport is/was usually considered the domain of the "poor".

Chris_533976 · 27-07-2006 4:34pm

I use the bus if I have to, but as we all know Cork buses are a disaster.

One of the things with a Luas type system is that IT has priority, so you can be guaranteed of the timetable.

Then in Cork, the time for the bus to go 2 miles is exactly the same as it takes to walk those 2 miles, mostly because of morons parking in the bus lane.

Tram lines for the win. Lets have one in Cork plz.

lostexpectation · 27-07-2006 6:22pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

According to another thead lostexpectation proudly announced he ignores my posts. Now he reads them....:rolleyes:

that was months ago, did you re-register? thanks for reminding me, I can't read any more of your tripe. T21 > ignorelist I hope you get knocked down by a bus :P

BrianD · 27-07-2006 9:35pm

Transport21fan wrote:

Anyways, I now consider Dublin to be a post-bus public transport situation. Transport 21 more or less ended Dublin Bus as a monoploy provider across huge segments of the city.

I think you are being slightly biased here. While the DB unions were quite happy to maintain the monopoly in terms of being the sole provider of bus transport, they did not create the situation where bus was the only form of public transport. It was successive governments - the people we elect - that created and perpetuated the situation. You can't really blame DB for that. The current government has decided to increase investment in existing and new modes of public transport and this is to be welcomes. Transport 21 is merely the title for the policy and DB and other parties all have a role to play in this.

shltter · 27-07-2006 11:00pm

markpb wrote:

I guess you could read lots of things into his post but I have a feeling he's trying to convince us that building super-QBCs instead of light rail is a bad idea because it won't convince as many car drivers to change to mass transport.

In that respect, he's right but I don't think its as simple as that because (in Ireland), building a bus lane is much easier than building a super QBC because politicians are less likely to interfere so its more likely to ever get off the ground.

You could read it as T21F as is usual trying to rile people with nonsensical arguements and then reduced to abuse about peoples sexual preferences when he fails in the first effort.

Dublin Bus carries 150 million people

Obviously people will choose the quickest most reliable mode of transport availsable to them and rail based transport has an advantage over bus transport in that respect. However when bus based transport is done properly or semi properly it attracts people and numbers using the service increase.

The big point that is overlooked is that the vast majority of people using the LUAS have transferred over from using the bus because of the reliability issue so we spent hundreds of millions of euro to move people from buses to trams for far less money the issues of providing a more reliable bus service which would have improved public transport for far more dubliners could have been addressed

The suggestion that we are in a post bus transport era is nonsense Buses do and will continue to provide an important part of the public transport infrastructure of this city in some areas they have an advantage on light rail for example in flexibility.

The fact that buses were not included in T21 has more to do with the government still being in disarray about what they want to do with the bus market and wanting to use fleet improvements as a bargaining tool in future negotiations with the trade unions.

It should not be forgotten that the Dublin Bus fleet has stayed pretty much static whilst the city has undergone massive growth as each new tranport minister has had a completely different policy Mary O Rourke had done a deal with the Unions which Brennan promptly unilaterally scrapped and went off on his 30% idea which Cullen promptly dropped and now has his own proposals that are going back towards the O Rouke deal of 5 years ago.

bk · 28-07-2006 12:57am

It is interesting to note that in Prague, buses are banned from the city centre, only Trams and underground Metro are allowed and used.

Needless to say Pragues public transport system is superb. Buses are only used on the outskirts of the city to further out destinations.

That is one of the benefits of dictatorship, they get things done

jd · 28-07-2006 1:03am

bk wrote:

That is one of the benefits of dictatorship, they get things done

That is true

My uncle was in Korea in the 60s/70s- essentially if a new road was to be built between two points it was a straight line between those two points.
If your house/village was on that line: tough
jd

markpb · 28-07-2006 8:53am

bk wrote:

It is interesting to note that in Prague, buses are banned from the city centre, only Trams and underground Metro are allowed and used.

Post T21 (if its done properly), this would be very possible in Dublin. With a (decent capacity) Luas or Metro covering most of the arterial routes, buses could be better used to provide orbital and local services. It's not going to happen before then with good reason.

Slice · 28-07-2006 9:00am

So what - in addition to reducing car use in the city centre buses should be banned as well? I'm sorry but that's a really stupid idea that would make the city centre a very inaccessible place to anyone not lucky enough to be on a Luas/Dart line or within walking/cycling distance. There is no precedent for it.

mickoneill30 · 28-07-2006 9:19am

I'm a fan of the buses. I'm in Swords and they're fairly regular (about every 15 - 20 mins during the times I get them) and from door - door it takes me exactly the same amount of time to get to work as it used to when I drove but it's a hell of a lot cheaper (and less stressful, I generally read or nod off when I'm coming home, I tried that in the car and it didn't work out

With that said though if they had a metro of course I'd use it. It wouldn't be affected by traffic jams.

But we need Irish people to learn how to queue. It's like a battle to get onto the buses in Abbey St.

markpb · 28-07-2006 9:26am

Slice wrote:

So what - in addition to reducing car use in the city centre buses should be banned as well? I'm sorry but that's a really stupid idea that would make the city centre a very inaccessible place to anyone not lucky enough to be on a Luas/Dart line or within walking/cycling distance. There is no precedent for it.

If you read my post again, you'll see I said that buses can provide local connections. So if you don't live within walking distance of a rail connection, there will be a fast and frequent bus service to take you to it.

Overall the journey should be much faster because the train doesn't stop every 50m like the bus and the bus doesn't travel all over the city trying to serve everywhere.

The north of the city will be served by dart to the east, metro to the north, maynooth suburban line to the west, the south of the city has the kildare suburban, luas red, luas green and dart. There will be very few parts of the city that should be more than a few minutes away from a rail station.

I live 3 miles from the Dart line and it takes about the same time to get the bus to the dart and a train into city centre than it does my windy bus to get into town. If the bus and dart were more freqent (which they should be post T21), the bus+dart will be much faster.

shoegirl · 28-07-2006 9:53am

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The bus does not do this. It does not capture the public by choice. It does not regenerate cities...it does not have any loyalty - only dependence.

So this brings me to the title of this post. Is bus based public transport really only for people who have no other option in public transport?

If a city really wants to develop public transport, then is the bus only for the non-car users, and therefore Light Rail/Metro and Commuter Rail the only real carrot to woo the car commuter out of their cars? The anecdotal evidence would suggest an overwhemling YES. Bus transport for urban public transport is the transit of last resort from what I can tell. I would be interesting in hearing what others think.

After this research, I am starting to wonder if buses, and the more sexed-up versions such as QBCs and so on - really just a waste of money and over the long-run and would investment in commuter rail and in an urban setting Light Rail/Metro the only real sensible option, in 21st public transport choice?

Bus based public transport seems to be most sucessful in regional and inter-city transport as a rival to the train. But in an urban setting, there seems to be no real loyalty to the bus unless the person cannot drive for some reason and the bus is the only way they can get around.

The problem with buses is that they use the existing road infrastructure, and therefore they inherit the same set of problems. So if there is severe congestion, buses will be doubly hit - first by a lack of choice of route, condemning them to what is usually the most inefficient route and then secondly the effect of the congestion itself.

A good example of this are long range buses in Ireland - at a time when the average train trip from Cork to Dublin has gone down to 2.5 or 2.75 hrs, the bus trip is now around 5 hours! Considering that you can drive the trip in generally 3.5-4 hours, its significantly poorer.

Secondly a lot of routes don't facilitate people's needs. A classic example of this is in Dublin city where so many routes end at the side of the city where they started. At just the time when cross city routes were most needed (i.e. the 1990s) Dublin Bus chose to eliminate most of them. (Classic examples being the 13 and 20 routes).

The reason why bus lanes don't work is because they are not continuous - they have to cut short at every single junction to allow access for other road users to turn corners, and secondly they (with a very tiny number of exceptions where traffic lights are setup this way) do not give priority at junctions. So adding in the factor of the removal of conductors (slowing down the driver) and poor routes (slow progress) the buses are doomed to fail. The only control the provider has at this point is to increase the frequency of the service - which at least gives the user choice as they are not left "waiting for the bus."

I would argue, however, that the improvements achieved by simply increasing the frequency of services could be done much more cheaply without using QBCs at all. As the classic example of the Lucan QBC has shown, many of them end up slowing down services as the overall impact chokes roads. 24hr bus lanes where there are no 24hr services are the ultimate joke and waste of tax payers money.

I also argue however, that a lot of success of light rail is due to the fact that it requires more planning because of the cost, and cannot be built without justification of ongoing demand, so these services are almost guaranteed to succeed as long as they are built in areas that are either reasonably built up or ripe for development. So you'll inevitably have a reasonable fequency of service which will server the needs of most commuters. If not then you'll end up with the equivalent of the sad little local service in Cork - underused, substandard and expensive.

On the other hand a bus "service" can consist of as little as 4 or 5 buses each way per day! This would only meet the needs of people who simply have no alternative!

shoegirl · 28-07-2006 10:05am

mickoneill30 wrote:

I'm a fan of the buses. I'm in Swords and they're fairly regular (about every 15 - 20 mins during the times I get them) and from door - door it takes me exactly the same amount of time to get to work as it used to when I drove but it's a hell of a lot cheaper (and less stressful, I generally read or nod off when I'm coming home, I tried that in the car and it didn't work out
With that said though if they had a metro of course I'd use it. It wouldn't be affected by traffic jams.

They are regular since about 2003. But until then Swords had one of the worst services in Dublin and heavy car dependency. One interesting effect of the building of the Pavillions was the number of people walking to it (though obviously it still attracts a lot of cars). Until around 1991 about 50% of Swords buses did not serve the airport and those buses got into/out of town in about 40 minutes.

Then in their "wisdom" DB abolished the 41A airport services and rerouted almost all of the Swords buses through the airport, increasing journey time by 10-15 minutes in the winter and by 20-30 minutes in summer as tourists started getting on/off at the airport en masses, of course most of them with no change (which was around the time of exact change required policies) and heavy luggage.

The rerouting of the the services has been helped by the completion of the M1 and restrictions on cars at the flyover over the end of the M50 at Whitehall. But the service provided back when I was commuting from Swords to the southside in the late 90s was pretty awful and compounded by other poor services on connecting routes which I used. I think its improved a lot.

Maybe too late for lots of people who ended up buying cars to get to work on the southside or west of Dublin, though.

bryanw · 28-07-2006 10:12am

Hope I'm not saying things already said ... didn't see the second page 'til after I typed my post

BrianD wrote:

For me, public transport will always be multi-modal and the key is placing it under the one brand name and that every aspect of it is integrated. There is certainly no grasp of this in the RPA who see themselves in competition with all other providers.

I agree completely and I hope that the Dublin Transport Authority can make some progress. Also, can't remember, are they supposed taking control of Dublin Bus?

I think that rail, compared to bus, is a much more attractive option. If they built a new super QBC, it would definitely not open to such fanfare as a LUAS or rail line would. The simple fact is that buses run on roads and with the other traffic. They use bus stops which are very frequent, travel on windy routes through housing estates and of course you can't build bus lanes everywhere. There also seems to be a problem with scumbags on buses which (for the most part) doesn't materialise on rail. Rail on the otherhand is (or is perceived as being) cleaner, more reliable on journey times, has a dedicated route so no hold ups and of course no station every 100m.

I live quite close to the DART line and the bus runs right by my house so there is not much use in taking a car into town, and besides, its too difficult to drive in anyway. I have noticed a real improvement in the quality of some bus routes. Practically all the buses on some routes are now brand new low-floor buses (with the Transport21 logo on the side!). The DART is also, I find a very reliable and frequent service. I would probably, given the choice, choose the DART because the bus is almost as expensive as it and for some reason I don't feel the bus is worth the price. Plus, even with improved frequency on fleet, I don't think journey times have improved.

I must say though, not a route I use often, but the N11 QBC is second to none on journey times and quality. The 46A always has the newest fleet operating.

layke · 28-07-2006 10:20am

Busses need undercover cops on them to keep the skum from throwing their cans at people and let not forget the smoking. It really pisses me off when you have "AW JAYSUS, WILL YE EVR FOOWK OFF JUNGFELLA" being screamed from the back of the bus. Or the 2 gullys of sick that slide from the back to the front of the bus when it stops and starts (usually found on Saturday/Sunday mornings).

At least the Luas has inspectors that get on every so often.

Oh disregarding the 46A, who here wants to wait 20 minutes in the pissing rain while their fingers go blue from the cold because the bus wasn't on time or you missed it by two minutes. Which I find is a regualr thing.

I'll take the car thanks.

shoegirl · 28-07-2006 10:26am

bk wrote:

Yes, but with one caveat, many car drivers take the bus due to the high cost of city parking.

BTW About Cork, a relatively minor investment in buses in Cork would vastly improve the service. This would only cost a fraction of a Luas line and be far more beneficial.

Both points good, but there are several problems in Cork:
1. availability of limited cheap parking in some parts of city (eg 7 euros per day at 2 city car parks and 5 euros per day in Railway St)
2. a lot of long distance commuting and most of it to industrial estates outside the city - some of who are not served by any bus service (eg. ALL of the estates in Little Island)
3. division of city/county services - city services are very cheap and efficient but limited to city boundaries whereas most of traffic is coming from Ballincollig, Midleton, Mallow. Fermoy, most of which have mediocre to poor services which are also relatively expensive
4. even the city services are poorly timed, for example, very few start before 7.30am, making them unusuable for anybody starting work before 9am - which is as much as 70% of all workers!

To give you a good example, driving a small car will cost you about 1 euro per 10 miles driving for petrol, and for me, an additional 700 euros a year to tax and insure the car. Lets add another 300 euros for maintenance costs. My commute is just under 20 miles 5 days a week. Thats €8.17 euros per day for every day I work (not taking into account other travel).

However the bus fare is €8.30 per return trip so it is actually cheaper to drive to work if parking is free! You can get a 10 journey ticket for €35.10 but its still a saving of less than €1.15 per day - and the car is then available for other use. That doesnt take account of time saved which is around 1-2 hrs per day of waiting for the bus or traffic delays.

If I factor in basic "other use" - say 1 long distance trip every 2 months, and 2 local trips a month the total annual bus ticket comes to €2208.
However if I add the total cost of petrol, tax, insurance and maintenance for the same trips by car it comes to €2206. So not only do you NOT save by taking the bus, it actually costs you an extra 2 euros per year! Not to mention time saved - which is around 240 hrs per year or 20 12-hr working days!

popebenny16 · 28-07-2006 11:53am

Whats interesting on this thread is that BE's commuter and expressway services, which are relativly cheap, come out very well, and so they should, they use top of the line coaches and they seem to have their timetables sorted out.

It is in the Local Services that the problems arise, and they are down to frequency, anti-social behaviour and finally coverage.

I dont know about Cork, but the poster above me here has covered it well, but in Dublin many of the routes still slavishly follow the old Tram lines. When they city went through major expansion in the 70/80s most of these routes were simply extended rather than new routes being added, eg the 50 to Tallaght when it used to go to Crumlin. Dublin needs extra routes, full stop and they need the routes to change.

Frequency problems will mostly be blamed by BAC of the traffic. How can BAC get more people out of cars and into buses? The old image of buses being dirty and clapped out surely cannot hold up anymore, have a look at how many buses are post 2000 reg. There are hundreds of low floor accessable buses, they are the same buses in fact that are delpoyed in London and elsewhere, so is it an old stereotype that car users will not give up?

There is a great attraction about feeling able to leave your house when you want as opposed to being tied to a bus timetable. The way to counter that is to increase frenquencies. Is the only way to achieve that the QBC route? Probably. But it dosnt help that when you get onto a bus on a cold wet day that the windows are condensed up, there is a musty smell and the heater dosnt work. Bad PR, encourages people to get back into their car.

Then there is the anti-social behavior. The logical way to comkbat it is to bring back conductors, and refusing to let such people on in the first place. Most of this stuff happens because they know the driver in undewr company instruction not to come out of the cab and they can always leg it before the Guards arrive, if they ever do.

When I saw this thread the old Fatima Mansions song came back to me "only losers get the bus" and untill that stigma is dropped we'll continue to see half empty buses stuck in gridlock.

Archeron · 28-07-2006 12:35pm

Interesting post popebenny. I wouldnt say there is any stigma in getting the local bus in the city at all any more, as owning a car is no big thing.In fact most people who dont own cars dont own them because its not logical to have one if you live in a central location. The anti social behaviour is the single biggest reason I drove everywhere in Dublin. I lived on the 27 bus route (which used to be the old 42C). Occasionally, if I was at the Plex in Coolock, I'd get the bus outside there into town, and I would regularly see people put their hand out for the bus, and when they realized it was a 27, lower their hand and step back in and wait for a 42 from Malahide instead.

popebenny16 · 28-07-2006 12:42pm

Sorry, what I ment by Local bus, is BAC, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford services, as opposed to the inter-town services.

In relation to the experiance at the leisure plex, I used the old 36 and 13 buses and can remember the exact same happening as people decided to get 19's and 11's instead.

monument · 28-07-2006 1:49pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I make no bones about the fact I often feel aroused by the sight of model trains running around in a ciricle.

Now I know we cant trust a word you say about buses.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Just please realise it is Transport21 not Transport69.

And there was silly old me thinking it was TPWD&RP, as in Transport Plans Watered Down and Repackaged.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Even though buses were provided by the local transit authorities and quiet often with comprehensive and reliable services, they ran empty most of the day.

What transit authorities for example?

Is Taking the Bus Really a Matter of Consumer Choice or the Last Resort?

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