Suicide

Tim Robbins · 18-03-2008 10:36am #1

Just finished reading Human Instincts by Robet Winston. He says at the end of it, suicide was not considered a sin until St. Augustine said so.

What would be the views of the various Christians from the various denominations of this?

Pompey Magnus · 18-03-2008 12:44pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Just finished reading Human Instincts by Robet Winston. He says at the end of it, suicide was not considered a sin until St. Augustine said so.

What would be the views of the various Christians from the various denominations of this?

Augustine decided suicide was against the sixth commandment, Thou shalt not kill. so claimed it was an unforgivable sin. For some reason he made an exception for Samson, I don't think he made an exception for Saul who fell on his own sword.

By the way, have you ever heard of "Suicide by cop"? It is when someone acts in a provoking manner to a law enforcement officer with the goal of provoking a lethal response. A prize for the first person who can name the most prominent figure in Christianity who commited "suicide by cop" through acting in a provoking manner to the authorities in the knowledge that doing so would provoke a lethal response.

Tim Robbins · 18-03-2008 12:58pm

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Augustine decided suicide was against the sixth commandment, Thou shalt not kill. so claimed it was an unforgivable sin. For some reason he made an exception for Samson, I don't think he made an exception for Saul who fell on his own sword.

By the way, have you ever heard of "Suicide by cop"? It is when someone acts in a provoking manner to a law enforcement officer with the goal of provoking a lethal response. A prize for the first person who can name the most prominent figure in Christianity who commited "suicide by cop" through acting in a provoking manner to the authorities in the knowledge that doing so would provoke a lethal response.

How did you know that about Augustine?
As for suicide by cop, surely it's not Jesus, is it?

Zombrex · 18-03-2008 1:11pm

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

A prize for the first person who can name the most prominent figure in Christianity who commited "suicide by cop" through acting in a provoking manner to the authorities in the knowledge that doing so would provoke a lethal response.

Miss, miss, miss, I know, pick me pick me miss, miss miss, miss I know, miss!!!

Suicide is obviously fine so long as you are paying for the sins of humanity

Pompey Magnus · 18-03-2008 1:23pm

As for suicide by cop, surely it's not Jesus, is it?

It is indeed. His actions in the Temple, his provoking sermons, his rejection of Pilates offer for clemency all fit beautifully with someone who intended to die but did not want want to "pull the trigger" so to speak, in other words Suicide by Cop. When talking of his life he said: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself".

As for Augustine, he made his proclaimation on suicide in an effort to put down the heretics in the early Church called the Donatists, they followed a man called Donatus Magnus and they opposed the mingling of the Christian church with the Roman Empire, their opposition to this union of church and state went as far as provoking authorities to kill them or else commiting suicide by themselves in order to achieve martyrdom. By declaring suicide an unforgiveable sin Augustine was able to tarnish the cause of the Donatist as he strongly supported the church - state alliance. That said his justification based on the Bible is flimsy at best.

Pompey Magnus · 18-03-2008 1:46pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Miss, miss, miss, I know, pick me pick me miss, miss miss, miss I know, miss!!!

You were a bit slow getting in there but I will give you a gold star for enthusiam.

Suicide is obviously fine so long as you are paying for the sins of humanity

Or in the case of Samson if you get a haircut that you don't like.

So to recap, the only excusable suicides in Christianity are (A) Dying for the sins of humanity, or (B) Poor quality haircuts. Every other suicide is bad.

Soul Winner · 18-03-2008 2:31pm

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

You were a bit slow getting in there but I will give you a gold star for enthusiam.

Or in the case of Samson if you get a haircut that you don't like.

So to recap, the only excusable suicides in Christianity are (A) Dying for the sins of humanity, or (B) Poor quality haircuts. Every other suicide is bad.

So by your reckoning Galileo also committed suicide as did all persecuted people the world over who refuse to recant or renege on their beliefs in order to appease the ruling powers that be? What did Jesus actually do to deserve the treatment He got? Pilate didn’t even want to execute Him because he could see no wrong in His actions or words. Pilate washed his hands of the blood of Jesus and the Jewish leaders said let His blood be on their heads.

If you were dragged from your house today and brought before a church council and compelled to renege on your atheism and say the words Jesus is LORD, would you do it? And if you didn't and subsequently died for your beliefs as a result would that mean that you committed suicide? There is a difference between wanting to ends one's life due to despair, depression and a sense of hopelessness than to hold fast to one’s beliefs and die in the process. And to answer the OP’s question, I don’t believe anyone has the right to judge anyone who takes their own lives. Nobody knows what goes on in those last seconds between life and death except the individual involved and God. God is good and understands the motives of these people and knows the circumstances surrounding these events. And anyone who judges them is only judging themselves as Matt 7:1 points out.

BrianCalgary · 18-03-2008 2:35pm

No idea what our denomination says.

I would never advise suicide as there has ti always be a solution.
I agree with soulwinner, I have no idea what is going on in the mind and heart of the person committing the act so I will leave the judgement up to God.

robindch · 18-03-2008 2:48pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

So by your reckoning Galileo also committed suicide

The church put Galileo under house arrest for life, he didn't "commit suicide".

Soul Winner wrote: »

If you were dragged from your house today and brought before a church council and compelled to renege on your atheism and say the words Jesus is LORD, would you do it?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I certainly would -- putting a gun to somebody's head in order to get somebody's agreement seems to say far more about the person holding the gun, and the worth of the argument, than it does about the victim.

.

Puck · 18-03-2008 3:15pm

Leaving aside "suicide by cop" regular suicide is most often the result of some mental illness like depression. Speaking as someone who has suffered from depression in the past I can say it is a real illness, where you don't think rationally, you are not in your right mind. Suicide as a result of depression is no sin at all in my book, the person was simply suffering from an illness that was so great it became terminal.

philologos · 18-03-2008 4:22pm

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

It is indeed. His actions in the Temple, his provoking sermons, his rejection of Pilates offer for clemency all fit beautifully with someone who intended to die but did not want want to "pull the trigger" so to speak, in other words Suicide by Cop. When talking of his life he said: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself".

Christs life was going to be ended irrespective of whether he willed it or did not will it, if one believes that Christ was the Messiah and was fulfilling Biblical Prophesy. (Isaiah 53 is notable here).

Whereas someone committing suicide is vastly different as they do have a choice to live or to die.

Having said that I haven't quite formulated my view on suicide yet.

Naikon · 18-03-2008 4:25pm

Under specific circumstances, Suicide is morally justified.

Naikon · 18-03-2008 4:27pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I have no idea what is going on in the mind and heart of the person committing the act so I will leave the judgement up to God.

Or maybe it's up to the individual?
Just a thought.

Rev Hellfire · 18-03-2008 4:42pm

Naikon wrote: »

Under specific circumstances, Suicide is morally justified.

Under what circumstances would these be ?

death1234567 · 18-03-2008 4:47pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Under what circumstances would these be ?

Euthanasia/assisted suicide maybe? (Although Euthanasia technically isn't suicide)

andrewh5 · 18-03-2008 4:52pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Euthanasia/assisted suicide maybe? (Although Euthanasia technically isn't suicide)

I agree. We put terminally ill animals to sleep to end their suffering yet expect humans to suffer on regardless! Barbaric!

Naikon · 18-03-2008 4:55pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Under what circumstances would these be ?

Terminal illness for one.
Ultimately, if a person wants to end their own life, it should be up to the individual.

Rev Hellfire · 18-03-2008 4:59pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Euthanasia/assisted suicide maybe? (Although Euthanasia technically isn't suicide)

They aren't circumstances, those are methods. Suicide could be viewed as Euthanasia performed by the recipient.

The argument that we do it to animals is poor, we kill animals we find simply undesirable (ie. Rats) you wouldn’t suggest the same for societies unwanted and undesired I would image.

Rev Hellfire · 18-03-2008 5:03pm

Naikon wrote: »

Terminal illness for one.
Ultimately, if a person wants to end their own life, it should be up to the individual.

THe idea that people should be allowed do want the want to themselves is all nice and fine in principle, but should we allow a person suffering from depression for example to top themselves or should society seek to protect them from themselves. If that is the case then is a person with a terminal and most likely painful illness in a position to make these decisions for themselves? Many would argue they aren't.

Soul Winner · 18-03-2008 5:17pm

robindch wrote: »

The church put Galileo under house arrest for life, he didn't "commit suicide".

I do apologise, please excuse my ignorance, I always thought they executed him. But let’s say that he died prematurely as a result of his house arrest would you consider that suicide? I wouldn’t. But DM seems to think that it is because that is exactly what happened in the case of Jesus. Yes Jesus laid down His life but they didn’t have to kill Him. It was still their choice and actions that did that. They could have said no this man did not do anything wrong and therefore does not deserve to die and so we are not going to kill Him but they didn’t. The guilt is still theirs.

Akrasia · 18-03-2008 6:25pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Christs life was going to be ended irrespective of whether he willed it or did not will it, if one believes that Christ was the Messiah and was fulfilling Biblical Prophesy. (Isaiah 53 is notable here).

Whereas someone committing suicide is vastly different as they do have a choice to live or to die.

Having said that I haven't quite formulated my view on suicide yet.

So you're saying jesus didn't have a choice? It's not a willing sacrifice if there was no choice in the matter

robindch · 18-03-2008 7:05pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

But let’s say that he died prematurely as a result of his house arrest would you consider that suicide? I wouldn’t.

If he went into house arrest knowing that he be killed, then yes, that's suicide. If he tripped over his dressing-gown on day two and fell down the stairs, then no, that's not suicide. Suicide implies fore-knowledge of one's own death and who's to say that he didn't live longer because he was in a safe, enclosed environment (he was moved around from place to place, too, AFAIR). So, no, from the facts as I'm aware of them, Galileo did not commit suicide.

Soul Winner wrote: »

But DM seems to think that it is because that is exactly what happened in the case of Jesus. Yes Jesus laid down His life but they didn’t have to kill Him.

Jesus was killed because he seems to have been involved in rebel activity of one kind or another against the Roman authorities that ruled Judea. The bible reports that the Romans put 'INRI' at the top of the cross, and this makes sense if Jesus was a leader of this rebel acvitity, and they wanted to deliver a public message about how such rebels would be treated. Given this, I don't believe that Jesus was unaware at any time of what would happen to him. Hence, while (a) the Romans probably instructed the execution to take place, it was (b) almost certainly provoked by Jesus, and with his full fore-knowledge; (c) the public voted to free Barabbas instead of Jesus; (d) it was probably local slaves who built the cross and nailed him to it and (e) locals (his supporters?) who didn't rescue him at any point. Meanwhile, some people suggest that this was all done at the behest of local jewish bigshots who didn't like the boat being rocked.

With these six possible players all with varying means, motives and opportunity, where does ultimate blame or guilt for his death lie? Certainly not with just one!

BrianCalgary · 18-03-2008 7:11pm

Suicide: the intentional taking of ones own life.

Jesus did not take His own life. He was whpped by the Roman Authorities at the behest of the Jewish authorities.

He was nailed to a cross and crucified by the Roman Authorities with the blessing of teh Jewish authorities.

Not suicide.

So back on topic please: what do your denominations say about suicide?

Any other posts will be deleted.

Fanny Cradock · 18-03-2008 9:00pm

Akrasia wrote: »

So you're saying jesus didn't have a choice? It's not a willing sacrifice if there was no choice in the matter

Interesting. I can see where you are going with that. However, it's probably fair to say that most people would draw a distinction between a selfless sacrificial act and suicide.

I don't believe the Bible has anything specific to say on suicide. The lack of an outright condemnation would lead me to believe that it isn't considered a 'mortal sin'. I'm quite sure that Christians should be offering support if they can, and not concerning themselves with the morality of such a terrible thing.

Soul Winner · 19-03-2008 1:25am

robindch wrote: »

Jesus was killed because he seems to have been involved in rebel activity of one kind or another against the Roman authorities that ruled Judea.

Yeah. Healing the sick, raising the dead, forgiving sins, preaching everyone should love each other and helping those in need are really bad things. How dare He. It all makes perfect sense. I can understand why they wanted to string him up now.

robindch wrote: »

The bible reports that the Romans put 'INRI' at the top of the cross, and this makes sense if Jesus was a leader of this rebel acvitity, and they wanted to deliver a public message about how such rebels would be treated.

INRI stands for "JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS". Why would you consider that a sign that He was involved in rebel activity? The Jewish leaders didn't even want this sign on His cross.

robindch wrote: »

Given this, I don't believe that Jesus was unaware at any time of what would happen to him.

You're right. He knew exactly what was going to happen to Him. It was God's will that it should happen to Him and all He did while He was on earth was His Father's will. That's why He came. He did say "If it be possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not my will be done but thy will be done” So it was not His will that He should partake of this cup. Interesting. If someone tells you to jump of a cliff or else they are going to kill your child and you do it does that mean you committed suicide?

robindch wrote: »

Hence, while (a) the Romans probably instructed the execution to take place, it was (b) almost certainly provoked by Jesus and with his full fore-knowledge;

Probably? Almost certain? It sates very clearly in the scripture that He opened not His mouth when asked to defend Himself so how could He have provoked it? Its puzzling sometimes that you give out yards about Christians reading what they want to see into the scriptures when you are as guilty of the exact same thing.

robindch wrote: »

(c) the public voted to free Barabbas instead of Jesus;

Great choice that. Free a murderer and kill a righteous man who did nothing but good. Well done lads. Good call.

robindch wrote: »

(d) it was probably local slaves who built the cross and nailed him to it and

So what? Let assume it was local slaves that made His cross and hammered the nails home it still wasn't them who condemned Him. That was done at the behest of the Jewish leaders by the hands of Roman authority. It doesn't matter who did the actual execution, although I believe it was Roman soldiers who did that. It was a Roman soldier that pierced His side wasn’t it?

robindch wrote: »

(e) locals (his supporters?) who didn't rescue him at any point.

How could they rescue Him? When Peter tried to do this very thing in the garden when Jesus was being arrested, Jesus told Him to put up his sword as those who live by the sword will die by it. Are you suggesting that the Disciples should have tried to rescue Him? Wouldn't that have been considered and unlawful act on their part? Do you condone the unlawful activity of obstructing the course of justice?

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile, some people suggest that this was all done at the behest of local jewish bigshots who didn't like the boat being rocked.

I'll be more specific. They didn't want Jesus around because the truth He proclaimed would eventually put them out of a job. Let’s just say that they had a more than casual interest in shutting Jesus up. Their bread and butter livelihood was at stake.

robindch wrote: »

With these six possible players all with varying means, motives and opportunity, where does ultimate blame or guilt for his death lie? Certainly not with just one!

The Jewish Leaders said it themselves. Let His blood be on our heads. End of debate.

PDN · 19-03-2008 11:35am

In many cases of suicide the person concerned is suffering from some kind of mental illness or impairment, so it would seem to me, in those cases, callous to label their suicide as 'sin'.

In some cases suicide probably is sin because it can be an act of utter selfishness. Many teenage suicides, for example, are over comparatively trivial issues and cause absolute pain and devastation to parents, siblings etc. I attempted suicide as a teenager and, looking back, I was simply being a selfish brat who was throwing my toys out of the pram because a relationship had ended and I couldn't have what I wanted.

As for Jesus committing 'suicide' - He certainly laid His life down willingly, but it would be incorrect to call it suicide. He was executed by others.

I can think of several situations (albeit some more far-fetched than others) where I would consider suicide to be an acceptable option:
a) If a child and I were confronted by a lunatic with a gun - I would hope I would have the courage and integrity to throw myself in front of a bullet to save the child's life.
b) If I were being tortured in a situation where there was no prospect of reprieve or release - then I would see it as morally acceptable to commit suicide in order to hasten the inevitable death. This would become more of an imperative if the likelihood was, that by cracking under torture, I might condemn others to a similar fate.
c) If I was suffering from Alzhiemer's to the extent where others were being unfairly burdened, and where I was no longer capable of rational thought or conversation - then I would see it as a mercy to me and my family if I were to top myself in a rare lucid moment.

CerebralCortex · 19-03-2008 12:37pm

PDN wrote: »

....In some cases suicide probably is sin because it can be an act of utter selfishness. Many teenage suicides, for example, are over comparatively trivial issues and cause absolute pain and devastation to parents, siblings etc. I attempted suicide as a teenager and, looking back, I was simply being a selfish brat who was throwing my toys out of the pram because a relationship had ended and I couldn't have what I wanted.....

I (as a person who had a troubled teens) would say you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. It may seem trivial to you now but your not a teenager now. Pain is pain and maybe you just weren't given the stability to deal with pain regardless of how trivial. I hard the same thing said on by Gerry Ryan on the radio and I think it a cruel world view to belittle a teenagers pain. I also believe teenagers are a result of how they were raised which of course is something they have no control over. I can't imagine a god who would punish someone who was in so much pain that they wanted to kill them selves.

Soul Winner · 19-03-2008 1:06pm

PDN wrote: »

In many cases of suicide the person concerned is suffering from some kind of mental illness or impairment, so it would seem to me, in those cases, callous to label their suicide as 'sin'.

In some cases suicide probably is sin because it can be an act of utter selfishness. Many teenage suicides, for example, are over comparatively trivial issues and cause absolute pain and devastation to parents, siblings etc. I attempted suicide as a teenager and, looking back, I was simply being a selfish brat who was throwing my toys out of the pram because a relationship had ended and I couldn't have what I wanted.

As for Jesus committing 'suicide' - He certainly laid His life down willingly, but it would be incorrect to call it suicide. He was executed by others.

I can think of several situations (albeit some more far-fetched than others) where I would consider suicide to be an acceptable option:
a) If a child and I were confronted by a lunatic with a gun - I would hope I would have the courage and integrity to throw myself in front of a bullet to save the child's life.
b) If I were being tortured in a situation where there was no prospect of reprieve or release - then I would see it as morally acceptable to commit suicide in order to hasten the inevitable death. This would become more of an imperative if the likelihood was, that by cracking under torture, I might condemn others to a similar fate.
c) If I was suffering from Alzhiemer's to the extent where others were being unfairly burdened, and where I was no longer capable of rational thought or conversation - then I would see it as a mercy to me and my family if I were to top myself in a rare lucid moment.

I totally agree. It is easy to trivialise the pain and anguish of teenagers simply because we went through it at some stage but we as adults need to be more understanding and sensitive to the problems teenagers face especially with the issues they face today. Communication and thoughtfulness is a must. I can remember my teenage anguish about the world as being a sometimes overwhelmingly bad feeling. I couldn't really talk about it to anyone because I thought there was something wrong with me so to bring it up would have been in my stupid view at the time an admission of that. I was an 80's teen so things didn't look all that bright economically but socially I think it was much better back then. Looking back it is easy for me to think of it as a phase that I had to go through but at the time of going through it wasn't a very nice feeling. With all the normal teenage stuff one must go through, doing it in the 80's just made it more difficult. And I know that it was even harder for my parents when they were growing up so you could say I was lucky. But I do think teenagers today have it harder psychologically. There is too much political correctness out there. Value systems have gone out the window. It is all about looking after number one now and whatever works for you is what is most important. That seems to be the way of the world and it could go someway to explaining why we have so many sub cultures within sub-urban areas. They have abandoned the rule of law because they simply don't value it and more importantly don't respect it. Is that their fault? I don't believe it is. I blame bad leaders in every sector of our society for that. They can never see the bigger picture only what works in the temporal. We need more visionaries like our leaders of old. Leaders with values and purpose and courage. Fear is what rules us today.

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 4:47pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

THe idea that people should be allowed do want the want to themselves is all nice and fine in principle, but should we allow a person suffering from depression for example to top themselves or should society seek to protect them from themselves.

Using silly examples won't make you right, you know.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If that is the case then is a person with a terminal and most likely painful illness in a position to make these decisions for themselves? Many would argue they aren't.

If someone is given two months to live, and will be in total agony for the remainder of their life. Then suicide can be justified.

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 4:48pm

PDN wrote: »

In many cases of suicide the person concerned is suffering from some kind of mental illness or impairment, so it would seem to me, in those cases, callous to label their suicide as 'sin'.

In some cases suicide probably is sin because it can be an act of utter selfishness. Many teenage suicides, for example, are over comparatively trivial issues and cause absolute pain and devastation to parents, siblings etc. I attempted suicide as a teenager and, looking back, I was simply being a selfish brat who was throwing my toys out of the pram because a relationship had ended and I couldn't have what I wanted.

As for Jesus committing 'suicide' - He certainly laid His life down willingly, but it would be incorrect to call it suicide. He was executed by others.

I can think of several situations (albeit some more far-fetched than others) where I would consider suicide to be an acceptable option:
a) If a child and I were confronted by a lunatic with a gun - I would hope I would have the courage and integrity to throw myself in front of a bullet to save the child's life.
b) If I were being tortured in a situation where there was no prospect of reprieve or release - then I would see it as morally acceptable to commit suicide in order to hasten the inevitable death. This would become more of an imperative if the likelihood was, that by cracking under torture, I might condemn others to a similar fate.
c) If I was suffering from Alzhiemer's to the extent where others were being unfairly burdened, and where I was no longer capable of rational thought or conversation - then I would see it as a mercy to me and my family if I were to top myself in a rare lucid moment.

Agreed.

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 5:39pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

I do apologise, please excuse my ignorance, I always thought they executed him. But let’s say that he died prematurely as a result of his house arrest would you consider that suicide? I wouldn’t. But DM seems to think that it is because that is exactly what happened in the case of Jesus. Yes Jesus laid down His life but they didn’t have to kill Him. It was still their choice and actions that did that. They could have said no this man did not do anything wrong and therefore does not deserve to die and so we are not going to kill Him but they didn’t. The guilt is still theirs.

Exactly. According to these guys, every martyr is a suicide. No laying down one's life for his friend, either - just suicide.

Ah, well, such is today's hedonistic materialism.

Suicide

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