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My Father

  • 12-04-2007 12:30am
    #1
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    No, not your Father... but mine.

    I'm a confirmed agnostic, but have an interest in all things spiritual.

    I was chatting to a work colleague a few weeks ago. He is a practicing Christian, though he never tries to force it down anyones throat. I asked him about it, and we had quite an interesting conversation.

    It turns out that he believes the Old and New Testanment to be the literal truth. Noah did have an Ark, there was an Adam and Eve, and it did take God 6 days to make everything, and then He rested etc. I kind of respected that, because it does seem hypocritical to cherry pick the nice bits from these books, and politely never mention the less socially acceptable bits.....

    Anyway, I asked him about my old dad. My Dad was born a Catholic, but rejected it after seeing the cruelty inflicted by the Priests and teachers at his Catholic school. He did believe in God though.

    Now my old dad never followed the scriptures or anything. He didn't go to church and didn't read the bible...... but he believed in God.

    He also was one of the most "good" people I have ever known. Kind, generous and locally famous for his many charitable works.

    So I asked my colleague if my old Dad would qualify for Heaven when he died. "Afraid not" came the answer. Apparently believeing in God isn't enough. You have to believe exactly the things in the Bible. All the "goodness" he has done is all very creditable, but he is still going to burn in hell, as he did not live his life according to these old books.

    It's all pretty poignant now as, as you may have guessed, my old dad died very very recently.

    So I say this to you. I do not know whether or not God exists. Like I say, I am an agnostic. But I do know this......

    If it turns out that God does exist, and that he has condemned my beautiful father to eternal hell..... then I totally reject Him. I reject Him as being jealous, spiteful and evil.

    Let me be clear. If He is there and has let my deserving Dad into heaven, then all is well and good! I try to be a good person too, and I hope that I make it. I've always loved the harp!

    But I think it is the intention behind the deeds that count, and my old dad only ever intended to help people.

    Thanks for reading. No offence meant. If this means I'm going to burn in Hell also, then at least I will be with one of the few men I have truly loved and respected.

    Good night, and peace be with you.


Comments

  • #2
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    This brings back memories.

    I don't believe you'll get very far with this line of discussion, Herman. The guilty parties tend to be seized by vice-like reticence in the face of the human implications of their beliefs.


  • #3
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Sapien wrote:
    This brings back memories.
    Yes, that was a thread to remember.

    Herman, sorry to hear of your loss. I believe that the only thing that really matters is how your Dad lived his life. What values he created, and what he did for his fellow man. On a lighter note, don't worry, there appears, by some accounts, to be an awful large number of good people who will be going to the same place, so it can't be all that bad:)


  • #4
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Dear Herman
    I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad, and I'm sure this is a painful time for you.
    With all due respect, maybe you would be better grieving for your Dad rather than coming onto a Christian forum and attacking what others believe? Any response that I or any other Christian might post is only going to stir up emotions rather than be examined for what logic or reasoning it might contain.
    I presume your quarrel is with born again, or evangelical Christians, since my understanding is that Catholicism would teach that your father will get to heaven by virtue of his baptism as a child.
    Just remember that many, in fact most, those of us who believe in evangelical Christianity also have dearly loved family members who are not Christians, and have had to face up to the very real emotional dilemmas of what we would like to be true concerning our loved ones' eternal destinies as opposed to what the Bible teaches.
    This is why Sapien's post is particularly silly. As someone who is 'guilty' of basing my worldview on the Bible (rather than my wishful thinking as to where I would like my mother & grandma to be) I have wrestled in a very real way with the human implications of my beliefs. Sapien is simply exploiting your bereavement & emotion to make a cheap shot at those with whom he disagrees.
    Herman, I would welcome a discussion on this subject at another time, when your emotions are less raw, but right now you have more important stuff to work through without any of us using your grief as an excuse to hammer one another's beliefs. I would appeal to other Christian posters on this forum not to get sucked into a pointless debate that is only going to hinder Herman from dealing with his loss.
    Herman, I will be praying for you (I doubt, as an agnostic that impresses you, but it means something to me). Feel free to PM me.
    PDN


  • #5
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    I'm fine with discussing this, really I am. And I am not "attacking" others' beliefs. I am rejecting them. There is a difference.

    I've already found considerable comfort to, especially from this - "there appears, by some accounts, to be an awful large number of good people who will be going to the same place, so it can't be all that bad"

    So thanks!


  • #6
    Crucifix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,437 ✭✭✭Crucifix


    Sorry for your loss.
    I can't really give an opinion on the matter at hand as I'm not a christian, but classically if you didn't follow the specific religion you were excluded from heaven. I know in Dante's Inferno, the virtuous people of the wrong religion ended up in Limbo/the first circle of hell.


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  • #7
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I'm sympathies on the loss of your father, Herman.

    After reading parts of the link posted, I saw obvious and shameful attempts to 'entrap' people. I fear this thread will be diverted down the same route.

    No one here can answer your question, Herman. Nor do I believe it particularly helpful for an agnostic (rejecting the Christian beliefs) to hear the words 'he is in heaven' or 'he is in hell'.

    Looking at Crucifix's post, I would point out that a persons relationship with Jesus has little or nothing to do with religion. Attending a Church or saying your hail Mary's does not make you a Christian. In like manner, not attending a church/mass etc. doesn't condemn you to hell. What is truly important is the relationship a person has with Jesus, and no one here could possibly know what your fathers was.

    As PDN suggested, there may be a better time - other then now - to discuss this.


  • #8
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    As PDN suggested, there may be a better time - other then now - to discuss this.
    The only reason there may be a better time would be so that particular Christian perspectives could be offered without seeming to directly offend the OP.

    Given that he's been told he shouldn't be asking the question, doesn't want to hear the answer, and has been accused of attacking other's beliefs, I can't see why offending the OP is such an issue.

    As an aside, such dodging of the question is, in and of itself a tacit admission that there will be some who's religious perspective would require them to offer the answer that would cause the OP to reject God.


  • #9
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Herman wrote:
    I'm fine with discussing this, really I am. And I am not "attacking" others' beliefs. I am rejecting them. There is a difference.

    I've already found considerable comfort to, especially from this - "there appears, by some accounts, to be an awful large number of good people who will be going to the same place, so it can't be all that bad"

    So thanks!

    My apologies for using the word "attacking". I guess I was thinking that I reject many people's beliefs (atheists, Muslims etc.) but I wouldn't really see the point of going to boards devoted to those beliefs in order to proclaim my rejection. Sorry, if I caused offence.

    Anyhow, it's a free world and you are perfectly entitled to reject Christian beliefs or any other beliefs that you want to. Thankfully we don't live in 16th Century Spain - where you would be killed for rejecting what the Church believed, or 21st Century North Korea, where you can be killed for accepting what the Church believes.

    If posting on here helps you get stuff off your chest & feel better then fair play to you.

    PDN


  • #10
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    PDN wrote:
    I wouldn't really see the point of going to boards devoted to those beliefs in order to proclaim my rejection.

    Neither would I. However, my reading of the OPs post is that he is agnostic and wants to know whether or not there are grounds that would lead him to change from this position to an outright rejection.


  • #11
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    bonkey wrote:
    Given that he's been told he shouldn't be asking the question, doesn't want to hear the answer, and has been accused of attacking other's beliefs, I can't see why offending the OP is such an issue.

    Just to clarify:
    PDN apologised for his use of the word "attacking";
    No one has suggested Herman shouldn't be posting his question. It has merely been suggested that there may be a better time.
    bonkey wrote:
    As an aside, such dodging of the question is, in and of itself a tacit admission that there will be some who's religious perspective would require them to offer the answer that would cause the OP to reject God.

    Herman, my answer to this is that no one on this earth can know where your father is. That, bonkey, is not dodging the question.



    I can already see this thread being hijacked by people who have issues with Christianity. I can picture their finger muscles straining in readiness for the pre-prepared vitriol they will hammer on the keys should someone say the words 'he is in hell'.

    Herman, my deepest sympathies for the loss of your father. My prayers go out to you and your family. However, I think this thread soon to spiral into Christian bashing by a select few, so I'll post no longer.


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  • #12
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    PDN wrote:
    This is why Sapien's post is particularly silly. As someone who is 'guilty' of basing my worldview on the Bible (rather than my wishful thinking as to where I would like my mother & grandma to be) I have wrestled in a very real way with the human implications of my beliefs. Sapien is simply exploiting your bereavement & emotion to make a cheap shot at those with whom he disagrees.
    Herman, I would welcome a discussion on this subject at another time, when your emotions are less raw, but right now you have more important stuff to work through without any of us using your grief as an excuse to hammer one another's beliefs. I would appeal to other Christian posters on this forum not to get sucked into a pointless debate that is only going to hinder Herman from dealing with his loss.
    Herman, I will be praying for you (I doubt, as an agnostic that impresses you, but it means something to me). Feel free to PM me.
    PDN
    I don't know which is worse, PDN, your demonstration of that evasiveness that I always associate with this topic, or your mawkish condescension to the OP.


  • #13
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Fanny Cradock wrote:
    Herman, my answer to this is that no one on this earth can know where your father is. That, bonkey, is not dodging the question.

    Maybe not for you, given your belief that no-one can know these things.

    However, there are those who profess to know that their interpretation of the bible is true. They profess to know that if you do or or do not do certain specific things, you are irrevocably doomed.

    Such people can then clearly determine whether or not the person in question falls into this irrevocably damned category. If he doesn't then they too may be able to say that they do not know for sure where he is, but I've no problem with that.

    I would have a problem with (for example) a religious belief which professes to know that if you don't regularly attend mass, you are damned, but who's practioners shy away from saying that others are irrevocably damned for not regularly attending mass. Maybe no such particular "flavour" of Christianity exists, in which case people should be able to at least put the OPs mind at rest and say that there are no religious orders or groups who would make the claim that he is apparently worried about.

    I can't see why any Christian would have an issue saying "ubnfortunately, my belief structure does not lead to a definitive answer, but at least that means I can rule out the 'definitely' answer that would cause you to reject God"
    I can picture their finger muscles straining in readiness for the pre-prepared vitriol they will hammer on the keys should someone say the words 'he is in hell'.

    If someone were to say "I believe he is in hell", or "according to my beliefs, taking what information you have offered, I would conclude...." then I would have no issue with it whatsoever.
    If someone were to confuse belief and knowledge, I would take them to task on it as it is the singlemost crucial distinction I believe it is incumbent on any faithful person to be able to make.

    I can't speak for others, of course, but so far it seem there are more Christians springing to take offense at the alleged risks of answering then there are non-Christians taking offence at what those answers could be.
    However, I think this thread soon to spiral into Christian bashing by a select few,
    It is only in danger of that should we rescue it from the spiral of non-Christian bashing it has already been brought into by a select few.


  • #14
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Herman wrote:
    No, not your Father... but mine.
    ...
    Good night, and peace be with you.

    It is an unfortunate property of western religion that it defines itself as much by those that aren't members as those that are.

    As a social force a religion would not get very far if it didn't first identify those that aren't going to be saved, and then offer to them the ability to be saved. All western religions, from the ancient ones (Jews, Christians) to the modern ones like Scientology work along these lines.

    Identify those that aren't members -> tell them why they need to be members -> convert them -> rinse and repeat.

    The unfortunate bit is that those converted now think they have something that they didn't before, and that others don't have.

    If they thought they already had this, what ever it is that the religion offers, they wouldn't need to be converted in the first place. And the only way they can continue to think they have this special thing is to think others don't have it.

    If a religion simply said "everyone is saved", or "everyone who leads a good life, is saved" then the religion would have no purpose. By a process of cultural evolution you simply wouldn't hear about it after a short period of time because there would be no need to continue to preach and spread the religion. The religion, as a movement would die (interestingly Eastern religions don't really work like this)

    It would be like the AA running advertisements state that you don't need the car break down cover. They would go out of business, because who is going to sign up for a service they don't need. Any religion that doesn't convince people that they need it will not last long. As such the only religions that you hear about are the ones that work like this.

    For example Scientlogists will tell you that you are mentally ill, and that only Scientology can help you fix your mental problems (and they will explain why you are mentally ill in the first place). You naturally don't want to be mentaly ill so you join Scientology. Now to believe that you are fixed (as a lot of people seemingly want to) you also have to believe that originally you weren't and that there are others walking around that aren't fix. You then attempt to spread the message to them, often out of genuine desire to help others you believe have a problem, but also to re-affirm to yourself that there are actually others that have a problem that you no longer have.

    Christianity will tell you that you are wicked and going to hell, and only Christianity can help you lead a good life and gain eternal life in heaven. Naturally you want to lead a good life and get into heaven. But again, like Scientology, to believe that you are "saved" you also have to believe that originally you weren't, and that there are others walking around that aren't saved. Without this belief your "conversion" is pointless.

    The guy who was talking to your father believes he is saved. But to believe that he is saved he also has to convince himself that a lot of other people are not saved Otherwise what was the purpose of doing what ever he did to become saved.

    The most successful religions are the ones that work on this basis.

    It must be a human trait that we readily believe that we need something to fix us, to save us, to help us. And we want to believe that something will or has fixed us, saved us, helped us. But to do so we first have to believe that we were once broken, not saved, in need of help. And the belief that others are still in that state goes hand in hand with that.

    So you have Muslims believing they are leading a moral life and are saved and that Christians are going to hell, and Christians believing they are leading a moral life and are saved and Muslims are going to hell. If both were saved what would be the purpose of being a Christian or a Muslim?

    So the real question is do you first accept that his personals beliefs are the correct beliefs with regard to God? Do you think this person talking about your father is saved?

    If you don't then it doesn't really matter what this guy says, he is winding up in hell as much as the rest of us. :)

    Now I apologise to the Christians here, this is a message for the OP. If he wants to discuss this further I suggest we pop over to the Atheist/Agnostic forum, you will find plenty of discussion about things like this.

    I agree with Franny and PDN that the Christianity forum is not the best place to really discuss this topic. Any answer here will ultimately, I feel, be unhelpful. Christians, like any theists, are in the box looking out.

    Off to the Atheist/Agnostic forum with us ....


  • #15
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote:
    It is an unfortunate property of western religion that it defines itself as much by those that aren't members as those that are.

    As a social force a religion would not get very far if it didn't first identify those that aren't going to be saved, and then offer to them the ability to be saved. All western religions, from the ancient ones (Jews, Christians) to the modern ones like Scientology work along these lines.

    Identify those that aren't members -> tell them why they need to be members -> convert them -> rinse and repeat.

    Uh, isn't atheism itself guilty of defining itself in terms of what it is against rather than what it is for?

    I guess if what you posted is true, Wicknight, then the atheist & agnostic forums are frequented by a large number of rabid theists fervently hijacking every thread in order to convert you all? Maybe they are, since I've never been interested enough to go there.


  • #16
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Sapien wrote:
    I don't know which is worse, PDN, your demonstration of that evasiveness that I always associate with this topic, or your mawkish condescension to the OP.

    Actually, I find your comments very offensive. I am genuinely sorry to hear that Herman has recently lost his Dad, and his original post demonstrates that his emotion is going to influence any explanation of orthodox Christian beliefs. As a pastor I am used to trying to comfort the bereaved rather than defend God every time someone blames God for something that has happened, or objects to Christian doctrine due to their grief and loss. So, strange as it may seem to you, I genuinely think there is little to be gained (for anyone) by discussing the eternal destiny of someone I don't know so soon after his death.

    As for evasion of the topic, nothing could be further from the truth. If you want to start a thread entitled "Why does PDN believe his granny is in hell?" then I will gladly respond.


  • #17
    Tigrrrr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭Tigrrrr


    As Brian calgary was sayng in that other thread, it really isn't our place to say what's happened to the dead. it's pointless speculation, I'm quite surprised that anyone calling themselves a Christian would attempt to put themselves in the contrived position to make judgements about it to be honest. With all due respect OP, your friend sounds a bit stupid.


  • #18
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    PDN wrote:
    Uh, isn't atheism itself guilty of defining itself in terms of what it is against rather than what it is for?

    I guess if what you posted is true, Wicknight, then the atheist & agnostic forums are frequented by a large number of rabid theists fervently hijacking every thread in order to convert you all? Maybe they are, since I've never been interested enough to go there.

    Well, we do get the occasional more adventurous soul - and yes, they do try to convert us. Admittedly, in our own forum, we don't use the kid gloves we usually wear here, but theist-bashing is rather less common there than atheist-bashing seems to be here.

    Still, full marks for your uninterest, wherever it stems from.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #19
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    For the OP, as a matter of interest - is the idea that your father might be in Hell more or less unpleasant than the idea that he is simply gone?

    I wouldn't ask, but you've already said you're alright with the questions, so I hope it doesn't offend.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #20
    Crucifix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,437 ✭✭✭Crucifix


    Tigrrrr wrote:
    As Brian calgary was sayng in that other thread, it really isn't our place to say what's happened to the dead. it's pointless speculation, I'm quite surprised that anyone calling themselves a Christian would attempt to put themselves in the contrived position to make judgements about it to be honest. With all due respect OP, your friend sounds a bit stupid.
    That seems a bit odd to me. One could say it's all pointless speculation, how is it our place to say anything?
    What I mean is; there is scripture and officials to decide this stuff.
    My memory of it is incredibly hazy...but isn't there different criteria for different sects of christianity? I remember debate about faith vs. faith and good works vs. predetermined?
    I don't know about the OP, but I am curious as to the official line, rather than individual posters opinions.


  • #21
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote:
    Uh, isn't atheism itself guilty of defining itself in terms of what it is against rather than what it is for?

    Well its not really a question of what things are for or against, it is a case of what these movements claim to be able to do for you.

    Scientology tells you that you are mentally ill, and then claims to be able to fix you. This creates a group who believe they are fixed and everyone else isn't. They go on to tell others that they need to be fixed ...

    Christianity tells you that you are a wicked sinner, and then claims to be able to save you. This creates a group who believe they are saved and everyone else isn't. They go on to tell others that they need to be saved ...

    Atheism doesn't really claim to do anything.

    There are atheists who claim religion is bad, and believe that it is better to be an atheist just for the good of society, but that doesn't really fall under "atheism" per say as lots of atheists don't think this and you don't have to think this to be an atheist. It falls more under something like humanism or secularism.

    Atheism doesn't really promise anyone anything. Atheism won't fix you, and it won't save you. You don't think you are going to get anything by being an atheist.

    Which is often why atheism is consider quite distasteful to some people. They consider it a lack of promise or hope. If someone genuinely believes they need to be fixed or saved, atheism isn't going to do that, nor does it claim to. But to an atheists though it is just facing up to reality.
    PDN wrote:
    I guess if what you posted is true, Wicknight, then the atheist & agnostic forums are frequented by a large number of rabid theists fervently hijacking every thread in order to convert you all?
    We get that a bit. They normally don't last very long though as the argument that we are all wicked sinners and need to be saved (or for that matter that we are all mentally ill because of what aliens did a few million years ago) don't tend to stand up to much debate. We call them "hit and run" posters.

    I think the theists quickly learned that atheists on this site aren't exactly easy to convert. We ask too many questions :)


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  • #22
    Splendour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Herman wrote:
    Anyway, I asked him about my old dad. My Dad was born a Catholic, but rejected it after seeing the cruelty inflicted by the Priests and teachers at his Catholic school. He did believe in God though.

    Now my old dad never followed the scriptures or anything. He didn't go to church and didn't read the bible...... but he believed in God

    .

    Herman,I am so sorry for you on the loss of your Dad. When someone we love does, the grief is heartwrenching no matter what our beliefs are...


    First off, may I say it sounds like your Dad didn't have a true Christian experience. Sadly over the years, Christianity has been badly represented. (And still is unfortunately...)

    The fact that your Dad didn't go to church matters not a jot. Lots of people go to church, but that doesn't necessarily make them Christian. In fact given your Dads experience-who could blame him not going to church?!! Seems like he didn't throw 'the baby out with the bath water'-and God honours that...

    Your 'old Dad' remind me very much of a very famous biblical person called Abraham (original name Abram). Abraham didn't follow scriptures,(there weren't any in his day). Nor did he go to church or read the bible as neither of these existed in his day either. And yet we are told in Genesis 15' 6

    " Abram believed the LORD, and he (the Lord) credited it to him as righteousness"

    Christianity is not about what church we attend, how much we read our bible, or good works we do. It is about our relationship with God and who we say he truely is...

    God bless...


  • #23
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    Thanks everyone.

    Scofflaw, I have a great belief that some kind of justice should prevail. IF there is truth that, somehow, the way you lived your life should affect your lot in death..... then Dad deserved to be up there with the best of them.

    The possibility that God might subject him to Hell, meely because he did not follow set guidelines re behaviour and worship makes me angry. Angry enough to reject this God. Not in the sense of refusing to beleive in Him. But in the sense of rejecting Him and all He stands for.

    If my colleague was right it looks like I've bought myself a particulalrly hot seat!

    But, like some kind person said earlier, both me and my Dad will have some great great company there.

    Sorry I can't comment on everyones posts. I'm a little lost with the intricacies of this issues.


  • #24
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Herman wrote:
    Thanks everyone.

    Scofflaw, I have a great belief that some kind of justice should prevail. IF there is truth that, somehow, the way you lived your life should affect your lot in death..... then Dad deserved to be up there with the best of them.

    The possibility that God might subject him to Hell, meely because he did not follow set guidelines re behaviour and worship makes me angry. Angry enough to reject this God. Not in the sense of refusing to beleive in Him. But in the sense of rejecting Him and all He stands for.

    If my colleague was right it looks like I've bought myself a particulalrly hot seat!

    But, like some kind person said earlier, both me and my Dad will have some great great company there.

    With you there. Most of my family will be standing on the left hand come the Day, apparently.

    For pretty much the reasons you've given, I generally call myself an "alatrist" (non-worshipper) rather than an atheist or agnostic. I can't prove that God (or gods) don't exist, but I can pretty definitely state that any of those I've heard of should be rejected for one reason or another - usually this kind of injustice.

    To be honest, even if your father had been bad throughout his entire life, it's hard to see how the evil one can do in 70 years ever justifies torment for eternity.
    Herman wrote:
    Sorry I can't comment on everyones posts. I'm a little lost with the intricacies of this issues.

    Aye well, you're parachuting into a minefield here.

    see you on the left hand of God,
    Scofflaw


  • #25
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    Not too soon I hope!

    No offence! - :D


  • #26
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Herman wrote:
    Not too soon I hope!

    No offence! - :D

    None taken! Dying will be an interesting experiment, but the repeatability sucks.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #27
    2Scoops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,845 ✭✭✭2Scoops


    Crucifix wrote:
    Sorry for your loss.
    I can't really give an opinion on the matter at hand as I'm not a christian, but classically if you didn't follow the specific religion you were excluded from heaven. I know in Dante's Inferno, the virtuous people of the wrong religion ended up in Limbo/the first circle of hell.

    Dante's Inferno, of course, being the fictional account of Hell written in the 14th century. As opposed to the one written in the first century.


  • #28
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    I am a little concerned by some of the issues that have come up in this thread, and starting in others. For the benefit of new posters here, and a reminder to the old hands, I would emphasize that this forum is not just devoted to christian beliefs, it is a forum to discuss issues relating to these beliefs. Anybody has the right to post here as long as they honor the rules of the forum. This applies to believers and non-believers alike.

    This forum is very well established and many of the posters here have held dialogue for quite some time. Some of the issues raised have been very heated, many many, very informative. Some have never, and probably will never, see closure. What may appear to some as Christian bashing is in general not so. The Moderators here are very aware of the potential for bashing by both believers and non-believers. This will not be accepted from either camp. We have dealt with it before, we will do it again if we have to. I would ask all to bear this in mind when answering posts.
    Respect is after all universal.


  • #29
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    PDN wrote:
    As for evasion of the topic, nothing could be further from the truth. If you want to start a thread entitled "Why does PDN believe his granny is in hell?" then I will gladly respond.
    Interesting. So you might then be a little more forthcoming with judgements as to the present spiritual state of persons deceased? How refreshing and late-coming. Tell me, how long might we need to wait? Tell me, why is there a substantial difference between a discussion of your grandmother's damnation and that of Herman's father? - given that Herman has initiated this discussion with the aim of eliciting comments on precisely that topic.


  • #30
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    To clarify, I am an adult and do know what I am doing. I may be grieving, but was brought up by my Dad himself to be someone who does NOT fall apart.

    So thanks to those who have concerns about whether or not this should be discussed. But rest assured I am fine with it, and eager to see all view points.

    And thanks to all, as some of the posts here have been a source of great comfort.


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  • #31
    interestinguser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭interestinguser


    Herman,

    Sorry for your loss. When it comes down to it none of us really knows what happens when a person dies. Various may think they know, but that is an entirely different thing. About your friend, is it possible that he is right? Sure. Is it likely that his group's particular brand of one particular religion is absolutely right, whilst all others are wrong? No. It is possible, but in all likelihood he is deluded. Seriously, you said he believes in the literal truth of the bible. If a person believes that the world is only a few thousand years old when clearly it isn't, and if a person believes in myths like Adam & Eve, then should you really be taking anything else he believes in seriously?

    Some people talk about a lovely and caring god, but then if you don't accept everything they teach, and follow all manners of rules & regs supposedly laid down by god then you'll burn in hell for all eternity. :rolleyes: People really do have some ridiculous ideas. You're father sounds like he was a good man, be proud of him and remember him. :)


  • #32
    kmick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    Herman,

    Sorry to hear about your Dad and I hope you strive to be as good a dad as he was. Sounds to me he lived like a Christian all his life. Just because he rejected the brutality of the church at the time does not mean he ever rejected god as you mention. Now what Christians, Muslims, Buddists and all the rest agree is that we all believe in the SAME God. They just apply the rules a little differently. I truly believe there is a God but reject all religions on the basis that all they do is intensify division. When anyone tells you a person wont get into Heaven beacuse they were not this, that and the other just nod, smile, and think of your father in heaven today sitting with the people he emulated all his life - the good people.

    Peace


  • #33
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    You know something?

    Despite all the disagreements, this is a truly nice place.

    :)


  • #34
    MeditationMom
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭MeditationMom


    One thing is for sure - your Dad, Herman, knows more than any of us by now about all these issues. And he'd be smiling a fatherly smile at us for trying to figure it all out, even having "fights" about it Asiaprod has to worry about.

    He is with God and at peace, which means he is right here, now, where we all are, eternally and infinitely. Where else would he be? Where else do people think God is?

    People don't even know where they came from before conception, which would logically be a little easier to figure out than where we go after we "die". It just needs to be remembered. Your friend is not only deluded but also cruel - but he means well. Go figure - the story of religion. We do need to forgive them for they do not know what they do!!! Your Dad was authentic, courageous and wise to leave the cruel behind. Good for him! He sounds like a wonderful and intelligent man. As far as I remember Jesus did the same thing ;) He left his church, denounced it and was eventually crucified by it for that. Good for him, too. As Asiaprod said - your Dad is in good company.

    He is with you!


  • #35
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    kmick wrote:
    Herman,
    Now what Christians, Muslims, Buddists and all the rest agree is that we all believe in the SAME God. They just apply the rules a little differently.

    Uh, no they don't. Christians, Muslims and Jews do (as far as I know), but that's about it.


  • #36
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    hairyheretic wrote:
    Uh, no they don't. Christians, Muslims and Jews do (as far as I know), but that's about it.
    I let that one slip by:eek:


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  • #37
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Asiaprod wrote:
    I let that one slip by:eek:

    There are places....places you don't want to go....madness....

    fully tinfoiled,
    Scofflaw


  • #38
    kmick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    hairyheretic wrote:
    Uh, no they don't. Christians, Muslims and Jews do (as far as I know), but that's about it.

    Its all the same God. Buddism searches for God within. However many of the teachings are very similar to Christianity.


  • #39
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Just because there is similar teaching between Buddhism and Christianity doesn't mean that they believe in the same God. Infact, I thought that Buddhism was an atheistic religion?


  • #40
    Aron Full Somebody
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Aron Full Somebody


    kmick wrote:
    Its all the same God. Buddism searches for God within. However many of the teachings are very similar to Christianity.
    We do not search for "god within". Buddhism is non-theistic. Any references to gods, local cultural gods, suggest that they are products of a hell of a lot of good karma and got to be gods for a while as a result of it, but are still subject to the same rebirth cycle as the rest of us, just on a much longer time scale, and worshiping them will not help you get rid of karma, only accumulate good karma I suppose.
    There are schools of buddhism such as pure land, which worship the buddha and even bodhisattvas as gods, but that's another matter.

    Dismissing religions or generalising them into "they're all the same" really does an injustice to the complexities of all of them, no matter which (or none) you believe. =/


  • #41
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    kmick wrote:
    Its all the same God.

    No, it isn't. Every culture has their own god, gods and/or goddesses, along with a host of other associated entities. To say that they are all the same is, to my mind, rediculous.
    kmick wrote:
    Buddism searches for God within.

    Buddhism, to my knowledge, searches for enlightenment. Very different thing to god.
    kmick wrote:
    However many of the teachings are very similar to Christianity.

    Some may be, some are very different. I wouldn't be familiar enough with them both to say what ammount would be similar.


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  • #42
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Interesting thread.
    Herman, you have a great attitude.


  • #43
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    Why thanks!

    As an aside, I go to pick up his ashes later today. My mother asked me to do it because she perceives that I am stronger than my brother and sister. I guess I am in this respect.

    I really don't believe he was in that body at all after he died. It was just a shell. And, of course, the ashes mean even less.

    Yet they are the only physical entity left of him and should be shown great respect by us.

    Now I know he would laugh at this...... But I can't help thinking of that clip in "Meet the Parents" where Ben Stiller knocks Robert DeNiro's mothers ashes over and the cat gets to them....... I'll leave the rest to your imaginations (unless you saw the film - ;) ).

    I loved that man as much as it is possible for any human being to love another. And it breaks my heart that he is gone. But he left a great many people behind, and it's my job to help look after them.

    To me? That is the meaning of life.


  • #44
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Way to go Herman, your Dad is proud of you.


  • #45
    Herman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Herman


    12 months already.

    I still love you dad. I always will. If you are anywhere, I know you are waiting for us.

    Love from too many people to mention, including Mum, Lynne, Frank, me, Ian, Alison, Robert, Bryn, Alex.

    Weeping now.


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