Am I paying rent to often?

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:05pm #1

Hi,

I have moved into a new place and I am a bit stumped by the way the landlady is working out the rent.

The place is €500 per month.

She wanted paying weekly at €125 per week. €500 per month works out at €115 does it not?

So I paid my first rent the other day ( after deposit and month ahead had passed) I paid her the €500 in one go. She has marked next rent day down as 4 weeks away, and then every 4 weeks after that. I am sure this is not right to pay a months rent every 4 weeks. This means in a year I pay 13 rents instead of 12. This cannot be correct can it?

I work out my rent on €500 x 12 months / 52 weeks= €115

Every 4 weeks works out as 52 weeks / 4 = 13 monthly payments of €500

I am sure she is in the wrong here but I needed to run it passed you guys in case I am being a complete doo-doo and have missed something stupid!

Thanks for your help

AnonoBoy · 30-04-2012 6:08pm

If the landlord quoted the rent as monthly then you should pay monthly.

They're trying to pull a fast one.

If you moved in on the 25th for example you should pay one month's rent on the 25th of every month.

Are you paying in cash? Did they supply you with a rent book?

I would suggest you get their bank details and pay into their account so there's a record.

Maglight · 30-04-2012 6:09pm

The key point here is what is in your rental contract. If it specifies a monthly payment then you are correct. If it specifies that rent is payable every four weeks then she is correct. Check the contract

peter_dublin · 30-04-2012 6:11pm

Rent should be taken as "per calendar month" that is the four weeks and additional days that make up a calendar month. I would raise it now saying a month is four weeks and so may days (two or three) and you will pay on the 25th of every "calender" month and not every four weeks. So yes they are chancing their arm or just stupid. But before you do anything check your contract.

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:12pm

The key point here is what is in your rental contract. If it specifies a monthly payment then you are correct. If it specifies that rent is payable every four weeks then she is correct. Check the contract

Thanks for replies. I just checked contract and it specifies a month is a 4 weekly period.

So a months rent is really €540 and I aint got a leg to stand on?

ABajaninCork · 30-04-2012 6:13pm

Sorry, wrong thread!

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:15pm

500/4 is 125, OP

I know thats what she wants, 500 a month is normally 115 but it seams I have not read small print:(

AnonoBoy · 30-04-2012 6:17pm

Jelly 292 wrote: »

Thanks for replies. I just checked contract and it specifies a month is a 4 weekly period.

So a months rent is really €540 and I aint got a leg to stand on?

Can they redefine the calendar in a contract?

edellc · 30-04-2012 6:17pm

yeah the devils in the small print OP lesson learned for next time unfortunately no help now

subway · 30-04-2012 6:17pm

You go by the contract .unless you feel e deliberately misled you in negotiations?

GarIT · 30-04-2012 6:18pm

A month is a set period of time, no contract can change what a month means.

If that was the case I could rent out a place say the rent is €100 per week and that my week is two days long.

subway · 30-04-2012 6:18pm

GarIT wrote: »

A month is a set period of time no contract can change what a month means.

If that was the case I could rent out a place say the rent is €100 per week and that my week is two days long.

Read the thread?

GarIT · 30-04-2012 6:20pm

subway wrote: »

Read the thread?

I have done, and I'm saying there is not contract in Ireland that can change how long a month lasts.

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:23pm

I have done, and I'm saying there is not contract in Ireland that can change how long a month lasts.

This is the nub, can they advertise saying its 500 per months and then charge 540 a month through their small print??

AnonoBoy · 30-04-2012 6:24pm

I think they were being deliberately misleading to make the place sound cheaper.

Really the place is 541 euro per month not 500.

You might be able to get out of the lease based on that. Possibly. You would need to talk to Threshold about it.

edellc · 30-04-2012 6:26pm

You pay whatever it is in the contract when ever the contract says its to be paid, if you didnt read the small print and signed the contract thens its your bad...so check what the contract say if it says every four weeks the rent is due at 540 then thats what it is regardless of if this makes 13 payments in a year

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:27pm

You pay whatever it is in the contract when ever the contract says its to be paid, if you didnt read the small print and signed the contract thens its your bad...so check what the contract say if it says every four weeks the rent is due at 540 then thats what it is regardless of if this makes 13 payments in a year

Why did they advertise as 500 p/m ? sure they may as well specify a month to be 3 weeks if they can get away with this.

edellc · 30-04-2012 6:29pm

Agreed but its up to you to read a contract before you sign it

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:33pm

I assumed that this type of practice would be classed as illegal /against the rules/ basic tenant protection. I have to check the contract for redefinition of the concept of time??

I've been renting 20 years and never run into this. Threshold for me so.
Really takes any nice feeling out of the place

AnonoBoy · 30-04-2012 6:35pm

edellc wrote: »

Agreed but its up to you to read a contract before you sign it

Yes but there are certain things that a contract cannot override. I'm not sure if the defined length of a month is one. Threshold would not look kindly on this sort of practice though because even if it isn't legally problematic it's not acting in good faith.

If they advertised the house on Daft say for 500 per month then redefining what a month is in the contract is dodgy dealings and designed to be deceptive. They should have advertised the weekly price.

Icepick · 30-04-2012 6:35pm

edellc wrote: »

You pay whatever it is in the contract when ever the contract says its to be paid, if you didnt read the small print and signed the contract thens its your bad...so check what the contract say if it says every four weeks the rent is due at 540 then thats what it is regardless of if this makes 13 payments in a year

If the contract says that you pay 500 every 4 weeks, then OP cannot do anything.
If it, however, states that you pay 500 a month and then that a month is 4 weeks, OP can do something about it.

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:44pm

Hi Icepick -

If it, however, states that you pay 500 a month and then that a month is 4 weeks, OP can do something about it.

Exactly what is on contract:

Temporary letting agreement for *********,********,Co.Waterford.

Monthly (four weekly) tenancy commencing **th March 2012 untill ** March 2013

1. To pay rent of €500 per month which does not include bin tags etc ect

What do you think?

Mr.Wemmick · 30-04-2012 6:45pm

A month is a month, doesn't matter what the contract says. You can easily argue with her that if she had stipulated in the contract, after you had agreed to rent the property, that a month is 2 weeks long in terms of paying the rent then she would be completely in the wrong, like she is now.

You took on a rental property based on the fact it was advertised as 500 per month. She can not then change what a month means be saying it is a 4 week period when it isn't.

Don't be scared of her or her contract. Make her re-write the contract stating that you pay 500 euros 12 x per calendar year. You signed the contract under the understanding that a month is a month, end of.

Lemming · 30-04-2012 6:48pm

Jelly 292 wrote: »

1. To pay rent of €500 per month

This. That's what the contract says about payment, excluding ancilliary costs like bin tags and the like.

Edit. Jelly, can you recall what the advert said? Did it mention Per Calendar Month or PCM against the rental price?

By the sounds of it, the LL will claim €500 PCM to the revenue I'm sure too assuming PRTB registered ...

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:49pm

Thank Mr.Wemmick, that's a decent angle to come at when I ring tomorrow.
It was advertised as 500, I accepted it as 500 and then the contract effectively made it 541 p/m

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:50pm

So in your opinion Lemming would you make that as 12 payments in a year?

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 6:52pm

Edit. Jelly, can you recall what the advert said? Did it mention Per Calendar Month or PCM against the rental price?

It was in local paper as 500 p/m as far as I recall, I do not have the add handy but there was not much info on it so I think it just said 500 per month. Will dig for that

Cheers
Jelly

GarIT · 30-04-2012 6:55pm

In Ireland a month can be recognised as 30.4 days or the length of the current month i.e. a date in this month to the same numbered date in the next month. A month can never be any other length.

Lemming · 30-04-2012 7:00pm

Jelly 292 wrote: »

So in your opinion Lemming would you make that as 12 payments in a year?

Jelly 292 wrote: »

It was in local paper as 500 p/m as far as I recall, I do not have the add handy but there was not much info on it so I think it just said 500 per month. Will dig for that

Cheers
Jelly

I'm not a legal expert, nor do I rent in the Irish market (UK instead), but personally speaking I'd be off to war over it. The LL appears to have been incredibly dishonest about the rental price and preying on ignorance to get away with it.

As others have also said, the definition of a month cannot just be arbitrarily redefined like this. It's like signing a contract stating that the other party can kill you if they feel like it; it still doesn't make it legal with your name in ink against whatever it says.

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 7:06pm

Sound, thanks all. Will calm down and give her call in the morning, will get onto threshold also. fingers crossed . Thanks for all the replies.

AnonoBoy · 30-04-2012 7:12pm

When you're talking to her make sure to make use of phrases such as, "And as you know a contract can't redefine the length of a month." - it allows them to back down easier and say "oh of course."

30-04-2012 7:18pm

Hi, it does seem to me that the landlord is trying to pull a fast one. Would get on to these - statutory agency for dealing with this type of sharp practice...

https://www.prtb.ie/

Best of luck in your new home

Sarn · 30-04-2012 7:23pm

That is really sly on the landlord's part. The ad indicating €500/month was deliberately misleading. The way it is set up means that there are now 13 "months" in the year. While it may be possible to class a month as four weeks, I imagine that that is very unusual and goes against the spirit of rental terms.

djimi · 30-04-2012 7:28pm

Jelly 292 wrote: »

Hi Icepick -

Exactly what is on contract:

Temporary letting agreement for *********,********,Co.Waterford.

Monthly (four weekly) tenancy commencing **th March 2012 untill ** March 2013

1. To pay rent of €500 per month which does not include bin tags etc ect

What do you think?

If this is word for word what the contract says then you pay €500 per (calendar) month and not a penny more. If it was worded as €125 per week or €500 per four weekly period then fair enough, but the wording of the amount of the rent is €500 per month, which is not the same as €500 every four weeks.

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 7:34pm

That is really sly on the landlord's part

Yeah, my blood is boiling. Its only when I looked at next rent due date that the penny dropped. I should have queried her when she mentioned the rent being 125 p/w after I paid the first months rent. I was busy and it was muttered to me while she passed out the door.
I decided to pay monthly anyhow so I did not dwell on it, now I see the next due date and Im raging. Foolish me.

What bugs me is that they are nice folks (seemingly) the place is nice, they are reg'd with PTRB. It all seemed above board and honest. but they are pulling this cheap , fast one. Surly they don't expect me not to notice. admittedly, took me a month but I was not expecting devious behavior.

Jelly 292 · 30-04-2012 7:37pm

Cheers djimi, The wording is exactly that on the contract.

You hit it on the head I think. They have drawn up a contract with 2 contradictory statements regarding the rent. I'm feeling better now I have a more solid angle to come at her from

Mr. Loverman · 30-04-2012 8:03pm

It is possible the landlord is not being sly. It is possible she is simply thick. Talk to her calmly and nicely before you go all Team America on her ass.

Mr.Wemmick · 30-04-2012 8:11pm

I agree with talking to her calmly too.. if she is nice and the place is too, then give her the benefit of the doubt. Tell her you think she has made a mistake as you only took the property based on what you could afford: 500 per month as advertised not 500 per 4 weeks.

Hopefully, she'll back down and agree she has got the wording on the contract wrong.

Let us know how you get on

Milk & Honey · 30-04-2012 8:21pm

GarIT wrote: »

A month is a set period of time, no contract can change what a month means.

If that was the case I could rent out a place say the rent is €100 per week and that my week is two days long.

There are solar months and lunar months. The first is calendar month and the second is 4 weeks. A contract can say which is being used. The primary meaning of month in this jurisdiction is in fact lunar month.
This was held by the Supreme Court in
Vone Securities v Cooke [1979] IR 68 " in this country the primary meaning of ‘month’ is lunar month, "
http://slr.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/1/43.extract

See also

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/MONTH
Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition:
\Month\, n. [OE. month, moneth, AS. m[=o]n?, m[=o]na?;
akin to m[=o]na moon, and to D. maand month, G. monat, OHG.
m[=a]n[=o]d, Icel. m[=a]nu?r, m[=a]na?r, Goth. m[=e]n[=o]?s.
[root]272. See {Moon}.]
One of the twelve portions into which the year is divided;
the twelfth part of a year, corresponding nearly to the
length of a synodic revolution of the moon, -- whence the
name. In popular use, a period of four weeks is often called
a month.

Note: In the common law, a month is a lunar month, or
twenty-eight days, unless otherwise expressed.
--Blackstone. In the United States the rule of the
common law is generally changed, and a month is
declared to mean a calendar month. --Cooley's
Blackstone.

odds_on · 30-04-2012 10:48pm

Jelly 292 wrote: »

Hi Icepick -

Exactly what is on contract:

Temporary letting agreement for *********,********,Co.Waterford.

Monthly (four weekly) tenancy commencing **th March 2012 untill ** March 2013

1. To pay rent of €500 per month which does not include bin tags etc ect

What do you think?

temporary letting agreement ?????
I am sure that the LL does not realize that after you have been in occupation for 6 months, you have the right to stay in the property for a total of 4 years under a Part 4 tenancy. No such thing as temporary, it is contrary to the RTA 2004.

Looks like a home made legal lease agreement and the rest is probably full of legal errors, not to mention clauses contrary to the RTA 2004. You cannot have monthly and 4 weekly - it is contradictory; it must be monthly or 4 weekly.

Without the full details of the agreement it is quite possible that it does not have all the detailed requirements for a rent book. Most leases also act as the rent book but I would have my doubts here. Ask the landlord/lady for a rent book. Ask her if the tenancy is registered with the PRTB.

If you could PM me with a copy of it I will have a look and see (though I am not a legal expert)

Tigger · 01-05-2012 12:40am

you were tricked

the old landlords and their 13th month trick its as old as the hills

good luck and let us know how you get on

BornToKill · 01-05-2012 12:49am

Interpretation Act 2005, section 21:

“month” means a calendar month;

Tigger · 01-05-2012 12:51am

BornToKill wrote: »

Interpretation Act 2005, section 21:

“month” means a calendar month;

yay

:cool:

jen84 · 01-05-2012 1:08am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

It is possible the landlord is not being sly. It is possible she is simply thick. Talk to her calmly and nicely before you go all Team America on her ass.

Ha, she could quite possibly be thick!! I was out for dinner with a bunch of old mates recently & one of the lads new girlfriends was trying to tell us (like it was a massive revelation!) how in fact pregnancy was 10 months instead of 9!

So apparently theres 40 weeks of pregnancy, which divided by 4 weeks in every month is 10 months!!- in her calculations,

Oh dear.... we all politely nodded

Milk & Honey · 01-05-2012 9:05am

odds_on wrote: »

temporary letting agreement ?????

Looks like a home made legal lease agreement and the rest is probably full of legal errors, not to mention clauses contrary to the RTA 2004. You cannot have monthly and 4 weekly - it is contradictory; it must be monthly or 4 weekly.

If you could PM me with a copy of it I will have a look and see (though I am not a legal expert)

I agree you are no legal expert. The Interpretation Act 2005 only applies to interpreting statutes.
4.—(1) A provision of this Act applies to an enactment except in so far as the contrary intention appears in this Act, in the enactment itself or, where relevant, in the Act under which the enactment is made.

(2) The provisions of this Act which relate to other Acts also apply to this Act unless the contrary intention appears in this Act.

A lease is a contract and the common law rules apply.
The word month in a lease without qualification means 4 weeks. If intended to mean calendar month then the words "calendar month" should be used.

djimi · 01-05-2012 9:28am

Milk & Honey wrote: »

A lease is a contract and the common law rules apply.
The word month in a lease without qualification means 4 weeks. If intended to mean calendar month then the words "calendar month" should be used.

So by that logic does the word "year" mean 13 months instead of 12? Because you cannot have it both ways!

edellc · 01-05-2012 9:52am

Look just tell her there is 12 months in a year :rolleyes:and that is what you are going to pay her for, the advert said 500 or whatever it was monthly so therefore you pay her monthly not weekly, what date did you move in and what ever that is tell her you are setting up a direct debit to go into her account for the amount advertised on that date, end of, take the situation by the balls and you dictate what is going to happen if she is that stupid she should be easy to get around

In future read the contact before you sign it as it doesnt matter if your landlady is thick or not you agreed to her stupidity and signed it :eek:

odds_on · 01-05-2012 10:05am

Milk & Honey wrote: »

I agree you are no legal expert. The Interpretation Act 2005 only applies to interpreting statutes.
4.—(1) A provision of this Act applies to an enactment except in so far as the contrary intention appears in this Act, in the enactment itself or, where relevant, in the Act under which the enactment is made.

(2) The provisions of this Act which relate to other Acts also apply to this Act unless the contrary intention appears in this Act.

A lease is a contract and the common law rules apply.
The word month in a lease without qualification means 4 weeks. If intended to mean calendar month then the words "calendar month" should be used.

Thank you Milk and Honey, always a mine of information, especially when it comes to the actual law.

Personally I have always taken a month to mean a calendar month and 4 weeks to mean 4 weeks.

Thus, in the RTA 2004 when it states that a tenant acquires Part 4 rights after six months, this means six calendar months and could not be misconstrued as 24 weeks. I often wondered why, for example, in the table of termination times it is given in days and not weeks. Is there something similar in law as regards to the length of a week?

Milk & Honey · 01-05-2012 10:20am

odds_on wrote: »

Thank you Milk and Honey, always a mine of information, especially when it comes to the actual law.

Personally I have always taken a month to mean a calendar month and 4 weeks to mean 4 weeks.

Thus, in the RTA 2004 when it states that a tenant acquires Part 4 rights after six months, this means six calendar months and could not be misconstrued as 24 weeks. I often wondered why, for example, in the table of termination times it is given in days and not weeks. Is there something similar in law as regards to the length of a week?

In the RTA a month means a calendar month. That is because of the Interpretation Act 2005. A week is 7 days and there is no controversy.
Month has at least 7 different meanings, three of them mainstream in this jurisdiction. In banking and accounting there is a definition of a month as 30 days. Some banks pay 30 days interest every month and thus 360 days in a year. Most of them charge interest 365 days a year however. Some pay out 360 days and charge 365 days.

odds_on · 01-05-2012 10:33am

Milk & Honey wrote: »

In the RTA a month means a calendar month. That is because of the Interpretation Act 2005. A week is 7 days and there is no controversy.
Month has at least 7 different meanings, three of them mainstream in this jurisdiction. In banking and accounting there is a definition of a month as 30 days. Some banks pay 30 days interest every month and thus 360 days in a year. Most of them charge interest 365 days a year however. Some pay out 360 days and charge 365 days.

Thanks again Milk & Honey.
Now that you mention it, I do vaguely remember interest being paid on 30 day month.

Nothing like making life simple for the simple!

Jelly 292 · 01-05-2012 4:38pm

Well, I had a chat with LL and its sorted.

At first when I rang the response was' well its 500 per month but I collect every 4 weeks'
So I politely explained the problems with this to which she just repeated the above quote! I went through the issues again with her and suggested I sould be paying on the same day every month. i.e. the 27th , and she said fine, no problem and Ill see you on rent day.
So I think LL knew full well what they were at but they folded straight away once I laid out the facts as I saw them. It all ended politely and no bad vibes, I think.

So thanks boardsies for all your help and suggestions of approach, your all lifesavers

Lesson learnt!

Am I paying rent to often?

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