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If you were a father , could you accept this decision?

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Comments

  • #52
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    That only works if he made an incorrect claim about what it is like to have big balls. He didn't though.
    The car driver hasn't made a claim to having a powerful car, in which the perception of speed-time is warped.


  • #53
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The car driver hasn't made a claim to having a powerful car, in which the perception of speed-time is warped.

    No but the point was IF he was driving a powerful car then doing that much over the speed limit by accident is very possible.


  • #54
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The car driver hasn't made a claim to having a powerful car, in which the perception of speed-time is warped.

    And nobody ever said he made such a claim.


  • #55
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    SV wrote: »
    No but the point was IF he was driving a powerful car then doing that much over the speed limit by accident is very possible.
    IF he were asleep in the back seat and a madman had taken the wheel then doing that much over the speed limit by accident is also very possible.

    Do you understand how dumb this is? You're inventing scenarios that he himself has never raised, so far as we know.


  • #56
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    IF he were asleep in the back seat and a madman had taken the wheel then doing that much over the speed limit by accident is also very possible.

    Do you understand how dumb this is? You're inventing scenarios that he himself has never raised, so far as we know.

    Your scenario is rather unlikely, people driving powerful cars is fairly common. Do you understand how dumb this is?


  • #57
    Cycling Dumbasses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭Cycling Dumbasses


    45kph over limit, speed kills.


  • #58
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    IF he were asleep in the back seat and a madman had taken the wheel then doing that much over the speed limit by accident is also very possible.

    Do you understand how dumb this is? You're inventing scenarios that he himself has never raised, so far as we know.

    Right, you've never drove a powerful car if you think it's not possible. Fair enough.


    No one said he made that claim, it's lending credit to the theory he could have done it by accident. How are you unable to grasp that?


  • #59
    The_Pretender
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭The_Pretender


    This getting OT. The driver was going over 50% faster than he should have been. Had he not, the mother, who was still definitely in the wrong as well, would have had 50% more time to complete her manuever and it's possible three children wouldn't be dead.


  • #60
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »
    45kph over limit, speed kills.

    So does illegal turns unfortunately.


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  • #61
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    SV wrote: »
    Right, you've never drove a powerful car if you think it's not possible. Fair enough.
    You're clearly on some weird mission here, which has nothing to do with the thread.

    We get it. You think you have a fast car. Why don't you post up a picture of your toyota celica and get it over and done with.


  • #62
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    The_Pretender wrote: »
    This getting OT. The driver was going over 50% faster than he should have been. Had he not, the mother, who was still definitely in the wrong as well, would have had 50% more time to complete her manuever and it's possible three children wouldn't be dead.

    That's like blaming someone for speeding on the motorway because they didn't have time to avoid the person driving the wrong way up it.


  • #63
    Cycling Dumbasses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭Cycling Dumbasses


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    So does illegal turns unfortunately.
    True true, bad combination.


  • #64
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    You're clearly on some weird mission here, which has nothing to do with the thread.

    We get it. You think you have a fast car. Why don't you post up a picture of your toyota celica and get it over and done with.
    Nothing to do with my car, which is quite normal as it happens.
    I have however been a passenger in an m5 that did 100mph as easily as mine does 30. That's what makes it deceiving


    Also, on no weird mission, but you state that you drive as if it gives you some kind of credit to knowing what you're on about, but it doesn't.


  • #65
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    SV wrote: »
    I have however been a passenger in an m5 that did...
    zzzz


  • #66
    The_Pretender
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭The_Pretender


    SV wrote: »
    That's like blaming someone for speeding on the motorway because they didn't have time to avoid the person driving the wrong way up it.

    I've been stating the whole thread that the blame should be 50/50. Surprisingly though a lot of people are defending the man and going all out against the mother.

    The fact of the matter is that he was doing motorway speeds but yet he was not on a motorway. The woman was in the wrong, but so was he. If he was actually sticking to the speed limit, it's possible the woman may have been able to reduce the gap in their speeds and complete the turn so that the car rear ended them as opposed to side impact.


    (Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I've just been assuming it was near enough side impact collision since she was pulling out?)


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  • #67
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Exacting revenge is a legitimate function of sentencing. One reason the criminal justice system exists is so that private human beings do not take the law into their own hands, where justice might be cruel and arbitrary. The justice system says "OK guys, we'll do the revenge for you, and we will see revenge is applied evenly".

    Increasingly custodial sentences are being handed down only to those with a risk of reoffending. In the US (without dragging the thread off topic) there is definitely a revenge element that does not seem to exist in western European countries. Take the Club Anabels case for example where most of the aggressor escaped a custodial sentence for this very reason. Not saying I agree with this but it depends on how you see your prisons. Are they for punishment or are they for rehabilitation. If the latter then in the Danish case a custodial sentence is probably not appropriate (assuming the guy showed remorse etc).


  • #68
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    What if she was drunk at the time?
    What if she was pouring her third glass of vodka as she turned left?
    What if she did it deliberately?

    What if, what if, what if.

    The media have reported it as an error, presumably based on the official testimony, and unless it is contested I see no reason to doubt it.

    Hang on a second . Theres nothing in the story to indicate any of that. Just like theres nothing to indicate she completely accidentally took a wrong turn rather than deliberately, yet your standing firm in the position she just made a mistake. I think my question is perfectly reasonable.


  • #69
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    The_Pretender wrote: »
    I've been stating the whole thread that the blame should be 50/50. Surprisingly though a lot of people are defending the man and going all out against the mother.

    The fact of the matter is that he was doing motorway speeds but yet he was not on a motorway. The woman was in the wrong, but so was he. If he was actually sticking to the speed limit, it's possible the woman may have been able to reduce the gap in their speeds and complete the turn so that the car rear ended them as opposed to side impact.


    (Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I've just been assuming it was near enough side impact collision since she was pulling out?)
    The only one prosecuted was the man despite both being in the wrong. It begs the question that if the man had a child in his car that was killed too would the authorities just say "ah its 50/50, both sort your own issues out"


  • #70
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    These are two relatively errors of judgement which combined caused devastating consequences.

    And that's what it boils down to.


  • #71
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,306 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    To a different order of magnitude. He made a conscious decision to drive at 125 km/hr. in an 80km/hr. zone. All drivers making such decisions must be aware that unexpected hazards can arise.
    Driving fast on a main road; not the best idea, but not a very bad one if it's staright
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Really cruel to have brought charges against a mother who has lost her children in this way. At least some common sense has prevailed, now they are dropped.
    Pulling out from a side road without looking; very bad idea.

    =-=

    How about you reverse the rolls; family going at 125km/hr crashes into a car that suddenly pulls out, and again all children die. Pretty sure whomever pulled out without looking would get the blame.


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  • #72
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    If he wasn't speeding it might not have happened. If she didn't turn into the wrong lane it definitely wouldn't have happened.

    But more importantly, the court seemed to realise that both parties beared some of the blame. The guy was rightly prosecuted because he was speeding, but they also realised there was nothing to be gained by pursuing the mother - common sense prevailed and there were no winners here


  • #73
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    If he wasn't speeding it might not have happened. If she didn't turn into the wrong lane it definitely wouldn't have happened.

    But more importantly, the court seemed to realise that both parties beared some of the blame. The guy was rightly prosecuted because he was speeding, but they also realised there was nothing to be gained by pursuing the mother - common sense prevailed and there were no winners here
    But they are also saying that the price of the kids lives is 1300 odd quid because if he lost one too he wouldnt have been charged. Basically the only reason he was charged at all is because none of his family were killed.


  • #74
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Ok I know everyone feels terrible for this woman and the father because they lost three children and rightly so. This is a terrible tragedy.

    But having been in the passenger seat with my two year old in the back, with a confused driver used to the other side of the road, started driving the wrong way on a four lane highway in France, I am well aware how easy it would have been not only for me and my two year old to have been killed with that error, but any amount of others on that main four lane highway.

    Look where you are going. If you are used to driving on the other side of the road, Jesus Christ, pay double attention. If your kids are getting the best of your concentration while they are in the back seat, pull over. Dont risk uncountable amount of lives.


  • #75
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Ok I know everyone feels terrible for this woman and the father because they lost three children and rightly so. This is a terrible tragedy.

    But having been in the passenger seat with my two year old in the back, with a confused driver used to the other side of the road, started driving the wrong way on a four lane highway in France, I am well aware how easy it would have been not only for me and my two year old to have been killed with that error, but any amount of others on that main four lane highway.

    Look where you are going. If you are used to driving on the other side of the road, Jesus Christ, pay double attention. If your kids are getting the best of your concentration while they are in the back seat, pull over. Dont risk uncountable amount of lives.
    She is danish. Shes most likely driven lhd cars plenty of times and possibly even the same roads.since we're using ifs its possible she knows the roads perfectly and decided to takr the chance on an illegal left turn because of that.


  • #76
    my teapot is orange
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭my teapot is orange


    We do not know whether she was driving responsibly or not. The fact that he was speeding made her task harder. It is possible that she failed to look and he would have hit her even if he had been driving at a safe speed. It is equally possible that she did check, there was nothing coming when she made the turn and he flew round some bend at an unreasonable speed giving her no chance. Speed limits are set with the conditions in mind and it is possible any driver making that turn would have needed him to obey the limit in that situation and that is why it was there.


  • #77
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    theres nothing to indicate she completely accidentally took a wrong turn rather than deliberately
    The RTE news website had been saying so up until 10pm this evening.

    RTE had claimed that the left turn was illegal, and that it had been made in error.

    Presently, both claims have been removed. Therefore, it is not possible to say that the left turn was illegal, nor that it had been made in error.

    Last September, the father of these boys had made the claim that the road was clear when his wife had made a left turn.

    And in fairness, the other driver had been travelling at 150% the speed limit.
    the_syco wrote: »
    Driving fast on a main road; not the best idea, but not a very bad one if it's starlight

    Pulling out from a side road without looking; very bad idea.
    Lesson: speed but dnt don't pull out frm sid rodz.

    Mother of christ...


  • #78
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The RTE news website had been saying so up until 10pm this evening.

    RTE had claimed that the left turn was illegal, and that it had been made in error.

    Presently, both claims have been removed. Therefore, it is not possible to say that the left turn was illegal, nor that it had been made in error.

    The only one that can tell if it was in error or not was the woman. Shes more likely to claim it to be a mistake than to have deliberately done something possibly illegal.

    The facts of the case are though that she pulled out in front of a car and was hit. One of the basics of driving is not pulling into another cars path, regardless of their speed.
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Last September, the father of these boys had made the claim that the road was clear when his wife had made a left turn.
    He can say what he likes because unless the car the man was in fell out of the sky, the road wasn't clear.
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Lesson: speed but dnt don't pull out frm sid rodz.

    Mother of christ...
    That's just making stuff up. He said don't pull out without looking. Your not doing yourself any favours.


  • #79
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    The only one that can tell if it was in error or not was the woman. Shes more likely to claim it to be a mistake than to have deliberately done something possibly illegal.
    We don't know that it was illegal anymore. That claim has been removed.

    Further, I would re-state that the prosecutor has said that, although he has to take the left turn into account, the Danish police found the other driver to be "the main cause of the accident".

    Am I missing out on something here? Is there some obvious reason why people are determined to find the mother of these dead boys guilty?


  • #80
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    We don't know that it was illegal anymore. That claim has been removed.

    Further, I would re-state that the prosecutor has said that, although he has to take the left turn into account, the Danish police found the other driver to be "the main cause of the accident".

    Am I missing out on something here? Is there some obvious reason why people are determined to find the mother of these dead boys guilty?

    Your own line in the middle there says he was the "main" cause. Not the only one. Yet he was the only one prosecuted.


  • #81
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Your own line in the middle there says he was the "main" cause. Not the only one...
    A prosecution was brought against the mother, and is being withdrawn.

    I have not had any reason to say the mother did not have *some* culpability, although I have no reason to make that claim, it seems.

    The driver was travelling at 45 km/hr over the speed limit, and he does not seem to contest that. The only information we have on the mother, is that the road was clear when she tried to turn her car.

    People really need to stop drawing their own hypothetical conclusions as though they are allowed to invent their own facts.


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  • #82
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,306 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Is there some obvious reason why people are determined to find the mother of these dead boys guilty?
    They're both guilty; however, it's who is more guilty? Was this a straight road, or was it a bendy one?


  • #83
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The only information we have on the mother, is that the road was clear when she tried to turn her car.
    .

    It wasn't though. If it was clear then there would have been nothing there to hit her.


  • #84
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    It wasn't though. If it was clear then there would have been nothing there to hit her.
    If someone is travelling at 150% the speed limit, it can happen that they 'appear from nowhere;, relative to the speed of other road users.

    I'm not saying this is the case, but the only undisputed fact in this case is the man's illegal speeding. In fact, there are no disputed facts at all, it seems.


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