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Same sex couples and adoption in Ireland

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  • 02-11-2005 2:06pm
    #1
    FilmMaker
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭


    Hey,
    I'm a student filmmaker here in Ireland. I have been offered a script to direct only i don't know much about the subject matter. Its about a gay couple who try to adopt a baby but get rejected. I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience or knows anyone who was rejected on the grounds of their sexuality. Any help/advice/information on the subject would be greatly appreciated and would help me produce the short film in an informed and accurate way.
    Thanks,

    FilmMaker


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    #2
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,898 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The only couples who can jointly adopt are married persons therefore technically speaking gay couples do not get rejected on the basis of sexual orientation - gay people can (and have always been able to) adopt as single people and as per a recent ruling by the Attorney General can raise an adopted child as a couple even though the child will only have one adopted parent

    You might try asking these questions on either the parenting forums of www.angrypotato.net or www.queer.ie - for angrypotato you have to request access from the admin - the queer.ie forum also has a yahoo group and you can find details of that at www.alternativeparents.com

    also this might help

    http://www.oasis.gov.ie/relationships/same_sex_relationships/adoption_and_same_sex_couples.html?search=gay

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3
    FilmMaker
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭FilmMaker


    cheers johnnymcg,
    that really helped me out.
    you just got yourself an end credit!
    thanks buddy.


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    #4
    UU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭UU


    FilmMaker,:)

    Have you heard of Civil Partnerships? Well in many countries such as UK, France, Germany and New Zealand, gay couples can't get married so a civil union is available and it allows them to have the same or similar rights to that of heterosexual married couples. This union also allows unmarried straight couples to have these rights also. :rolleyes:

    Over here, such a civil partnership is coming in in a few years. It is known as The Norris Bill, 2004 and it has been in the news recently. Same-sex couples can easily adopt a child from abroad or get a female donor to have a baby for them (in-vitro fertilisation) - a couple in the UK did this. Lesbian couples on the other hand, have it much easier as they can easily get a sperm donor and one of them can carry the baby. For the time being though, gay couples will have to wait on a long adoption list as a single parent. One will be the parent of the child and the other can become a guardian. :D

    Good luck with your film. I hope it goes successful! ;)

    Daniel :cool:


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    #5
    damien
    Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    The "Norris bill" wasn't a bill, is not a law or an act. It is merely a dream. It was stopped by the current Government from going anywhere.


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    #6
    UU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭UU


    Well, it looks like Finne Fael and the PDs won't be getting my vote! They're a crap government and assholes anyway. Perhaps some better party who care about Civil Unions will make in happen (when?)


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    #7
    damien
    Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    Here's something to digest. When Mary Coughlan (FF) introduced the new Civil Registrations Bill which for the first time in print BANNED same sex marriage, the only party to object to the ban was Sinn Féin.

    Until every LGB person that wants to marry their partner, as well as their friends that support them, start to campaign and pester and lobby their elected officials, then nothing is going to happen. How many gay people will get off their asses and do that though?


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    #8
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I think the hetero public (me included) sees a big difference between gay marriages/partnerships/whatever and two gay people raising a child.

    Most people would agree that gay people should be allowed do whatever they want as long as they aren't harming anyone.

    However, I think most heteros have problems with an "innocent third party" (the kid) getting thrown into the gay relationship.

    I don't think this is homophobia/whatever, it's just most people think a child will be brought up best with a father and mother figure, i.e. willl grow up with "normal" family values, less likely to get bullied, etc.

    Disclaimer before you bite my head off: everyone knows there are tons of terrible parents out there, and of course a gay home can be perfectly loving home. It's not about having a loving home. It's about having a traditional, "normal", "natural" family home.


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    #9
    MicraBoy
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭MicraBoy


    LOL you're one to talk about normal family values, ya panty wearing freak! :D

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3568886&postcount=9


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    #10
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    i have no issues whatsoever with the parenting abilities of LGB couples, and think in fact in a lot of cases they would make better candidates for adoptive parents, but i do have an objection, which is based not on the abilities of LGB parents, but on the consequences for the children growing up with gay parents. not that it's going to damage them directly, but what happens at school when someone finds out they have gay parents?

    kids can be very cruel, and the emotional effects of being picked on at school can be far reaching and affect a child for it's whole life, so I don't see that children who've already been through a lot of grief via losign their parents should have to go through the extra grief that this would create.

    this view has nothing whatsoever to do with gay rights, but starts and ends with the welfare of the children involved.

    I'm sure a lot of the LGB community has had some form of bullying at school due to their sexual preferences or thing related to growing yup and being that little bit different, so the question is, would you put a child through that?
    [align=right]13.16.137.10[/align]


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    #11
    Hmm_Messiah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭Hmm_Messiah


    so I don't see that children who've already been through a lot of grief via losign their parents should have to go through the extra grief that this would create.


    vibe666

    such bullying is a definite possibility, but enough for you to have "an objection" ?

    following the logic, fat people, disabled people, people with stammers should not become parents (or adopt) to avoid the risk their children will be bullied.

    Also these children you worry about, having lost their parents already, might go thro the extra "grief" to feel and be loved and needed and cherished and protected and wanted .


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    #12
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    i thinkyou're forgetting exactly how cruel kids can be, and i can only imagine that given the time that's past since i was at school, and seeing the things kids are doing/getting away with these days (damn, i sound old) i can only assume the situation has become much worse.

    like it or not, for a child the stigma attached to having fat/disabled parents is nothing compared to what they would suffer for having gay ones.

    again, as i said, my objection has nothing to do with gay, straight, black, blue green or whatever. it's soley about the children themselves, so don't feel put out.


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    #13
    UU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭UU


    damien.m wrote:
    Here's something to digest. When Mary Coughlan (FF) introduced the new Civil Registrations Bill which for the first time in print BANNED same sex marriage, the only party to object to the ban was Sinn Féin.

    Until every LGB person that wants to marry their partner, as well as their friends that support them, start to campaign and pester and lobby their elected officials, then nothing is going to happen. How many gay people will get off their asses and do that though?

    But it isn't same-sex marriage, but a civil union which gives unmarried couples both straight and gay the same rights as married couples. The bill is the Norris Bill and was introduced by senator David Norris who is homosexual himself. The government are *******s (pardon me!) as they are clearly trying to change the to suit only heterosexual couples which is firstly totally unfair and secondly taking away the whole point of the bill in the first place. Senator Norris himself was outraged by this and is getting it reviewed. This will come into effect as more straight couples aren't getting married but it takes much time for it to come into law as it passes in and out of the courts regularly. It took a good few years in Britain.

    It doesn't surprise me that Sinn Féin were the only one to protest against it as they are one of the only parties that supports GLBT rights as they aren't conservative like the rest.

    The GLBT community (including myself) need to get up off our asses and demonstrate for our rights to be met. Although I'm only 18, am still in school and don't have a partner so a union isn't something for me to think about yet but I hope it will be in effect in the future when I want a Civil Union.
    vibe666 wrote:
    i think you're forgetting exactly how cruel kids can be, and i can only imagine that given the time that's past since i was at school, and seeing the things kids are doing/getting away with these days (damn, i sound old) i can only assume the situation has become much worse.

    like it or not, for a child the stigma attached to having fat/disabled parents is nothing compared to what they would suffer for having gay ones.

    again, as i said, my objection has nothing to do with gay, straight, black, blue green or whatever. it's solely about the children themselves, so don't feel put out.

    I see where you're coming from but I kids will get jeered for anything. I got slagged because I had red hair, freckles and was very shy and clever. Another fella got slagged because he was Chinese. Kids will always find something to slag about. If a kid had homo parents, he/she would certainly get slagged but that is because of social attitude. If parents and teachers would educate kids about homosexuality as well as more TV programmes, they would have a better understanding and there would be less homophobia. Unfortunately, many parents don't understand homosexuality themselves. The thing is that homosexuality is a new issue in today's society which needs to be accepted just like Muslim children in schools (not being sectarian) and that is only possible through education.

    It is very much possible for gay parents can adopt children. There are a few ways. One of them can apply on the adoption list as a single parent and they other can become a guardian. They can adopt from abroad. They can find a donor of from abroad (e.g. USA). Of course this is much easier for lesbian couples as they can become pregnant themselves but us male gays have it the hard way:( .

    Enough info?:confused:

    Daniel:)


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    #14
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    UU wrote:
    It doesn't surprise me that Sinn Féin were the only one to protest against it as they are one of the only parties that supports GLBT rights as they aren't conservative like the rest.

    Not trying to go OT here, but I would say this is more to do with SF trying to get the minority vote and trying to be the opposite of the opposition parties.


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    #15
    Gadgie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭Gadgie


    dublindude wrote:
    Not trying to go OT here, but I would say this is more to do with SF trying to get the minority vote and trying to be the opposite of the opposition parties.

    Whether or not that's true, the fact remains that they were the only party to object.


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    #16
    damien
    Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    dublindude wrote:
    Not trying to go OT here, but I would say this is more to do with SF trying to get the minority vote and trying to be the opposite of the opposition parties.

    You'd be wrong. They have a very strong policy on the rights of samesex couples.


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    #17
    damien
    Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    UU wrote:
    The bill is the Norris Bill and was introduced by senator David Norris who is homosexual himself. ... Senator Norris himself was outraged by this and is getting it reviewed.

    Click your heels and repeat 3 times "There is no Norris Bill." It died before it started. McDowell debated him in the Seanad and it seems rang rings around him. With the old draft he wanted to bring in, it would have undermined marriage in this country which has strong protections in the constitution. The bill would have been deemed unconstitutional if it did in fact become a bill but it did not.

    Norris is good at outrage and very good at public speaking and tragically crap at moving this forward. He's well intentioned but his time has passed and his campaigning skills aren't so polished anymore. He reminds me of a doddering old uncle who we all love but don't take seriously. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anyone else with the backbone to push this forward.
    This will come into effect as more straight couples aren't getting married but it takes much time for it to come into law as it passes in and out of the courts regularly. It took a good few years in Britain.

    The Civil Partnerships Bill in the UK is for samesex couples only. Not hetero couples.
    The GLBT community (including myself) need to get up off our asses and demonstrate for our rights to be met.

    I don't think placards and drag queens will get us equality.


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    #18
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,898 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    whoa there UU :mad:
    Have you heard of Civil Partnerships? Well in many countries such as UK, France, Germany and New Zealand, gay couples can't get married so a civil union is available and it allows them to have the same or similar rights to that of heterosexual married couples. This union also allows unmarried straight couples to have these rights also.

    Similar NOT ALWAYS to do with children
    Over here, such a civil partnership is coming in a few years. It is known as The Norris Bill, 2004 and it has been in the news recently. Same-sex couples can easily adopt a child from abroad or get a female donor to have a baby for them (in-vitro fertilisation) - a couple in the UK did this. Lesbian couples on the other hand, have it much easier as they can easily get a sperm donor and one of them can carry the baby. For the time being though, gay couples will have to wait on a long adoption list as a single parent. One will be the parent of the child and the other can become a guardian.

    em the THE CIVIL PARTNERSHIP BILL 2004 (not the Norris Bill) is not guaranteed to become legislation

    Your post also infers that surrogacy is legislated for in Ireland which it isn't I suggest you read all of the links below

    http://www.oasis.gov.ie/relationships/same_sex_relationships/surrogate_motherhood_and_same_sex_couples.html?search=surrogate

    http://www.oasis.gov.ie/utilities/search.php?PHPSESSID=22a28d690733df24587c2a6257ed4374&query=gay&start=1
    But it isn't same-sex marriage, but a civil union which gives unmarried couples both straight and gay the same rights as married couples. The bill is the Norris Bill and was introduced by senator David Norris who is homosexual himself. The government are *******s (pardon me!) as they are clearly trying to change the to suit only heterosexual couples which is firstly totally unfair and secondly taking away the whole point of the bill in the first place. Senator Norris himself was outraged by this and is getting it reviewed. This will come into effect as more straight couples aren't getting married but it takes much time for it to come into law as it passes in and out of the courts regularly. It took a good few years in Britain.

    I don't understand that logic at all - civil unions will not give unmarried couples the same rights as married couples - it would give them to those who register their civil partnership - what makes you think if people don't to marry they will any form of civil partnership and please stop calling it the Norris bill

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #19
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    What I am very concerned with, is the huge increase in demand for adoption it can lead to.It is obvious that gay marriage will create a big increase in adoption demand while the domestic "offer" is already very limited. Then in order to satisfy the "demand" there will be a big increase in international adoption and we know that in some of the third world countries where these children are coming from, there is corruption and "selling" children is nothing more than a business, with already some examples where children have been sold as orphans while they actually have been removed by force from their parents....This is what is unacceptable. Having a child is not an entitlement......and if I am 100% with the general principle of gay marriage, I am against international adoption..... and will have to consider that there is a strong link between both when I will have to vote .


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