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WW1 Soldiers Traitors?

2

Comments

  • #52
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I cant find anything modern online about it either, even if you look at those who would argue against the wearing of the poppy, the feeling is more that the soldiers were misguided or misled not traitors.

    I think the perception has moved on from that view....
    As Keith Jeffery has observed, the First World War was seen in Ireland for much of the twentieth century in terms of ‘worn out politicians’ duping ‘misguided Irish youths … into taking the “King’s shilling”’, only for them to be needlessly ‘slaughtered in France at the altar of British imperialism’.

    In contrast, most modern historians emphasize factors other than the agency of MPs in accounting for the enlistment of approximately 144 000 Irishmen during the war (in addition to the 58 000 Irish military personnel and reservists who were mobilized).

    Jeffery, for instance, has provided a wide-ranging survey of motives and contexts encompassing ‘low as well as high causes: venal and valiant, selfish and selfless’, while David Fitzpatrick concludes his statistical analysis of Irish enlistment by emphasizing the centrality of fraternity and community.

    Nonetheless, even among scholars who disdain both the freighted term of ‘recruiting sergeant’ and its underlying assumptions, it continues to be argued that nationalist MPs ‘evangelically promoted’ enlistment, organized recruiting ‘campaign’, and were in the ‘forefront of recruitment efforts in Ireland’.

    From James McConnel - Recruiting Sergeants for John Bull? Irish Nationalist MPs and Enlistment during the Early Months of the Great War War In History November 2007 vol. 14 no. 4 408-428


  • #53
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I think the perception has moved on from that view....



    From James McConnel - Recruiting Sergeants for John Bull? Irish Nationalist MPs and Enlistment during the Early Months of the Great War War In History November 2007 vol. 14 no. 4 408-428
    Are those sources against wearing the poppy?


  • #54
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Are those sources against wearing the poppy?

    I only skimmed the article but a quick search of it indicates the word 'poppy' does not appear in it....

    ....the abstract describes it as follows....
    In September 1914 John Redmond promised Britain that nationalist Ireland would fight Germany ‘wherever the firing line extends’. Although the creation of an ‘Irish Brigade’ was blocked, Redmond encouraged nationalist enlistment in the 16th (Irish) Division. Separatists accused him and his colleagues of being ‘recruiting sergeants’ for the British army. This charge influenced how the Irish party was seen both during the war and after 1922.

    This article argues that, as with other core Redmondite themes, the nationalist party was in fact divided over Irish enlistment in Britain’s army. It concludes that the majority of home rule MPs did not share Redmond’s commitment to recruiting but instead shared the ‘mental neutrality’ which characterized much of nationalist Ireland during the early part of the war.


  • #55
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Ah ok, what I just meant was that the feeling the soldiers were misled is the feeling of those who argue against wearing the poppy (from what I read online), not necessarily the consensus feeling. It seems like a very interesting paper though, is the full article subscription only? I might try some university log ins


  • #56
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Ah ok, what I just meant was that the feeling the soldiers were misled is the feeling of those who argue against wearing the poppy (from what I read online), not necessarily the consensus feeling. It seems like a very interesting paper though, is the full article subscription only? I might try some university log ins

    Yes, I had to go through my university's library to get full access.

    The final para of the article concludes
    However, the ultimate success and endurance of the ‘recruiting sergeant’ metaphor cannot solely be attributed to the absence of back- bench backbone. Rather, the popularity of the Irish republican version of the familiar ‘lions’ led by ‘donkeys’ apologue as the dominant narrative of the war ultimately emphasizes once again the propaganda talents of the numerically much smaller but politically more nimble coalition of heterodox nationalists who opposed the home rule party during the First World War and who, ultimately, went on to build the new Irish state.


  • #57
    Fooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭Fooker


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Not so - a quick glance at your posting history reveals that you're a 3rd level student at NUIG.

    Fair point perhaps, but according to boards.ie only you have viewed my previous posts. The point still stands. People jumped to conclusions and read what they wanted or did not want to read into my question.


    - Jawgap

    Yes, I asked if any historians held that VIEW, not if they found evidence in the past of peoples attitudes. There is a huge difference. In the past people thought the world was flat, because I state this does not imply that I in fact believe this... I also stated that Historians should not bring their own opinions to bear on research. This does not mean to say that historians do not bring their opinions to bear, many do, but they should not.


  • #58
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Fooker wrote: »
    Fair point perhaps, but according to boards.ie only you have viewed my previous posts. The point still stands. People jumped to conclusions and read what they wanted or did not want to read into my question.


    - Jawgap

    Yes, I asked if any historians held that VIEW, not if they found evidence in the past of peoples attitudes. There is a huge difference. In the past people thought the world was flat, because I state this does not imply that I in fact believe this... I also stated that Historians should not bring their own opinions to bear on research. This does not mean to say that historians do not bring their opinions to bear, many do, but they should not.

    Not really sure how to respond to that, other than to wish you well in your research.......


  • #59
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Fooker wrote: »
    I asked a question, I sought assistance, I never asked for opinions. I have stated that it is not my opinion that these men were traitors.

    If I asked who would hold the view that the Holocaust did not happen, the answer would be David Irving. It does not mean that I would be a Holocaust denier or asking people what they think. It is asking a question.

    I. Asked. A. Question.

    OK, so if I understand you correctly, then the original query should have read something like:

    "Can someone give me a list of historians who think Irish men that served in WW I were traitors?"

    Is that your question? If that is your question, then no I don't know of a single one and I've read a lot on the subject over the years.


  • #60
    Fooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭Fooker


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    OK, so if I understand you correctly, then the original query should have read something like:

    "Can someone give me a list of historians who think Irish men that served in WW I were traitors?"

    Is that your question? If that is your question, then no I don't know of a single one and I've read a lot on the subject over the years.

    Thank you for responding to the question! It sounds easy, but many have tried where you have failed! I did main anyone relatively well known which would also encompass historians.


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  • #61
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Are those sources against wearing the poppy?

    Please don't mention the poppy. We will be having a full blown "Would you wear a Poppy" rant commencing in four months time on the After Hours site


  • #62
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    The idea that membership of the British Army was wildly popular is always going to be controversial given the circumstances.

    De Valera supported the erection of a memorial.

    http://www.historyireland.com/decadeofcentenaries/national-war-memorial-gardens-islandbridge/

    In that context and he was Taoiseach , he didn't consider them traitors.


  • #63
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    I have a poppy-superimposed on shamrock pin.

    I wear that, as well as my poppy on maple leaf pin.

    There are two of us Foleys in the American Cemetery at Madingly, near Cambridge. Tom [known as Bonny because of his amazingly blue eyes] is on the Wall of Remembrance and John has a proper grave.

    As does my grandfather, over in France.

    I guess starting a new thread about poppy-wearing might be the best idea.

    Apologies for thread drift.

    tac


  • #64
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    CDfm wrote: »
    The idea that membership of the British Army was wildly popular is always going to be controversial given the circumstances.

    De Valera supported the erection of a memorial.

    http://www.historyireland.com/decadeofcentenaries/national-war-memorial-gardens-islandbridge/

    In that context and he was Taoiseach , he didn't consider them traitors.

    In fairness, I think Dev was a bit 'late to the party' when it came Irish National War Memorial Gardens. He could have killed off the project when he became Taoiseach, so in that regard we should be grateful to him that he didn't.

    As a barometer of feeling towards the soldiers who fought in WW1 it's very useful. It was neglected for a very long time before undergoing a restoration in the 1980s.

    According to the Defence Forces website
    The first real, fully official "opening and dedication" took place with a state commemoration to mark the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme on 1 July 2006


  • #65
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jawgap wrote: »
    In fairness, I think Dev was a bit 'late to the party' when it came Irish National War Memorial Gardens. He could have killed off the project when he became Taoiseach, so in that regard we should be grateful to him that he didn't.

    [/URL]


    Isn't it well known that his stepfather was an englishman name of Wheelwright and didn't he provide a holiday camp for polo playing British playboys during WWII .


  • #66
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    CDfm wrote: »
    The idea that membership of the British Army was wildly popular is always going to be controversial given the circumstances.

    De Valera supported the erection of a memorial.

    http://www.historyireland.com/decadeofcentenaries/national-war-memorial-gardens-islandbridge/

    In that context and he was Taoiseach , he didn't consider them traitors.

    Sean Lemass also stated that Irishment who fought in WW1 were badly treated .
    It must be all taken in context of the economic deprivation, particularly in Dublin, which I believe was the main cause of men enlisting. In the early days of the war they thought it would be over by Christmas 1914


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  • #67
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    Sean Lemass also stated that Irishment who fought in WW1 were badly treated .
    It must be all taken in context of the economic deprivation, particularly in Dublin, which I believe was the main cause of men enlisting. In the early days of the war they thought it would be over by Christmas 1914

    That's an interesting point.

    Politically the Home Rulers were devastated by the war and replaced by a different type of politics and politician. Their next generation of leaders were wiped out.

    No doubt the WoI and Civil War was more current when the soldiers returned home.

    They were fairly unwanted.

    Events such as the murder of Vice Admiral Somerville in 1936 , for instance, would have discouraged people from being open about their experiences or connections.


  • #68
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Not just the army......Tom Crean after his service in the RN never spoke of his achievements, in public anyway.

    His brother was in the RIC and was shot by the IRA in an ambush.

    As an aside, his pub his well worth a visit!


  • #69
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,685 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Mutheragod what a nest of vipers.

    Maybe it's just me, as a fellow non-historian, but I thought it entirely clear what the OP was asking, and the responses he got (especially after clarifying for those who wanted to read all sorts of stuff into his question), were very rude, aggressive and completely OTT.

    It really says something when Jim2007 is the least patronising poster on a thread!

    To answer the OP, it's an interesting question and I've never encountered any public figures expressing that view, but there are no doubt plenty of barstool republicans who do hold that view. Although "view" is probably too generous a word, as it'd imply they'd applied critical reasoning...


  • #70
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    CDfm wrote: »
    That's an interesting point.

    Politically the Home Rulers were devastated by the war and replaced by a different type of politics and politician. Their next generation of leaders were wiped out.

    No doubt the WoI and Civil War was more current when the soldiers returned home.

    They were fairly unwanted.

    Events such as the murder of Vice Admiral Somerville in 1936 , for instance, would have discouraged people from being open about their experiences or connections.
    There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.
    However there also were a number of ex servicemen who supplied information to the British during the War of Independence. A number of these informers, real or in some cases mistaken, did pay the penalty and were executed by the I.R.A. It must be remembered that there were many garrison towns with a long history of service to the British Army and certainly loyalties were divided


  • #71
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.

    Yes, and some were suspicious of Tom Barry.

    Michael O'Leary VC chose to emigrate .
    However there also were a number of ex servicemen who supplied information to the British during the War of Independence. A number of these informers, real or in some cases mistaken, did pay the penalty and were executed by the I.R.A. It must be remembered that there were many garrison towns with a long history of service to the British Army and certainly loyalties were divided

    True and the history isn't clear.

    Nobody knows what old scores were settled .

    The political situation is far from simple and post independence Pro & Anti Treaty is very simplistic.

    There was a full spectrum from 1916 Veterans, Home Rulers, Marxists and so on all involved in a common revolution.


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  • #72
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    one "traitor" involved in the British Army during WW1 was the MP for West Clare Arthur Lynch. Found guilty of high treason following his role during the Boer War and sentenced to death (commuted), he served as a recruiter (with the rank of Colonel) for the Army during the war. The 10th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers was one of his projects, though it was established late in the war and didn't serve overseas.

    At his first election in Galway he defeated Sir Horace Plunkett.

    In 1918 he was stood as the Labour candidate for Battersea South while Charlotte Despard stood for Labour in Battersea North.


    Some WW1 soldiers killed in Ireland :

    http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-joseph-walsh.html

    http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-malachy-halfpenny.html

    http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldiers-killed-in-ireland.html

    A survivor of some rough treatment :

    http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldier-james-mcalorum.html


  • #73
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.

    Another that I know of was Michael Costello, who served with the South Mayo ASU, he was always known locally simply as 'Soldier'. I believe he served with the Irish Guards, but I have no information on him.


  • #74
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.

    Possibly overstating Tom Barry's army experience. He trained as an artilleryman and served in Iraq. Training and service that didn't naturally fit with the terrain and fighting in Cork.

    He wasn't exactly being truthful about reaching the rank of Sergeant and being offered a commission - he was a bombardier (Corporal) for a short while before reverting back to the rank of gunner at his own request. Limited experience of commanding troops in the field and of small unit infantry tactics.

    The lack of infantry training/experience, command experience etc makes his WoI exploits all the more remarkable IMHO.


  • #75
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    some nice pics coming out of the Howth landing celebrations today.

    In a recent article re the Asgard one man was simply listed as "a British aviator" The aviator was Gordon Shepherd. One of the first Royal Flying Corps officers to land in France in August 1914, earning a string of awards. Later a Brigadier General, he was the highest ranking member of the RFC to die during the war.


  • #76
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Mutheragod what a nest of vipers.

    Maybe it's just me, as a fellow non-historian, but I thought it entirely clear what the OP was asking, and the responses he got (especially after clarifying for those who wanted to read all sorts of stuff into his question), were very rude, aggressive and completely OTT.

    Absolutely this. People on Boards.ie in general come across as utter assholes


  • #77
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Absolutely this. People on Boards.ie in general come across as utter assholes

    Yourself included no doubt? :D


  • #78
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    No, I'm perfect. I'm the saviour of mankind...


  • #79
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Absolutely this. People on Boards.ie in general come across as utter assholes

    Post edit by moderator. ..

    Refer to army thread for what happens if your posts are seen as back seat moderating.


  • #80
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Was reading this morning about a Laois man, James Macintosh. He was a Dublin fusilier who fought in WW1 including at the Somme.
    He subsequently joined the IRA and died of wounds received during an attack on the Royal Marine Hotel Dun Laoghaire where British officers used to stay.


  • #81
    chrysagon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭chrysagon


    i know my gran uncle fought at the latter of WW1 purely for money...


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  • #82
    con___manx1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭con___manx1


    Fooker wrote: »
    Hi,

    I'm doing some research into the above topic. What historians or journalists or politicians specifically believe or support this idea

    1,600 men fought in the 1916 rising while over 200,000 fought in the British army during ww1. Ireland was British for such a long time that a lot of people were used to it. at the beginning of the rising there was little support from the public. it was only when they executed James Connolly and so on that they got a lot more support.
    James Connolly served in the British army and he definitely was not a traitor. I am proud of the Irish men who fought in the British army.they were not traitors a lot of them did it simply for money as there was not a lot of employment at the time.


  • #83
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,517 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    tac foley wrote: »

    I guess starting a new thread about poppy-wearing might be the best idea.

    Apologies for thread drift.

    tac

    Hold out for a few more months until the end of Oct, the Poppy Debate is a hardy annual.


  • #84
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Hold out for a few more months until the end of Oct, the Poppy Debate is a hardy annual.

    Could we tie it in with the "Would you wear an Easter Lily" post to make things easier?


  • #85
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    chrysagon wrote: »
    i know my gran uncle fought at the latter of WW1 purely for money...

    how much did he get?


  • #86
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    Was reading this morning about a Laois man, James Macintosh. He was a Dublin fusilier who fought in WW1 including at the Somme.
    He subsequently joined the IRA and died of wounds received during an attack on the Royal Marine Hotel Dun Laoghaire where British officers used to stay.
    God rest him. Many an Irishman was driven into the British army by hunger.


  • #87
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    God rest him. Many an Irishman was driven into the British army by hunger.

    My maternal grandfather also fought on the Somme, but never came home. He joined up to get away from my grandmother, and nothing to do with hunger.

    If you want to see him now, go to Plot 1, Row B, Templeux-le-Guérard Communal Cemetery Extension, Department of the Somme.

    RIP - D/9947 Pt Wm V Collins 6th Dragoon Guards [Carabiniers]

    tac


  • #88
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    My grand uncle from Skibbereen fought with the Munster Fusiliers, he remember in Villiers Facoun cemetry, don'st know where he is actually buried, killed 5/3/1918. RIP. I would consider him a hero.


  • #89
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    roundymac wrote: »
    My grand uncle from Skibbereen fought with the Munster Fusiliers, he remember in Villiers Facoun cemetry, don'st know where he is actually buried, killed 5/3/1918. RIP. I would consider him a hero.

    Name, rank and number and we can find him, but then again, so can you. Log on to the CWGC website and follow the instructions - either by using his name, or by looking at the cemetery and the list of those who are buried there.

    tac


  • #90
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Found him, thanks tac. ps, good to have you back on boards.


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  • #91
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    G*d Bless him.

    tac [note use of small letters - I'm not proud]


  • #92
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    con___manx1 wrote: »
    I am proud of the Irish men who fought in the British army.

    Why anyone would be proud of people that fought for such a vile empire is beyond me. :(


  • #93
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    The first AND second Victoria Cross medals of WW1 were won by Irishmen.

    What's not to be proud of?

    tac


  • #94
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Why anyone would be proud of people that fought for such a vile empire is beyond me. :(
    What's vile about it? Only for them you would not be able to write this if the Germans had their way in WW1 & WW2.


  • #95
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    tac foley wrote: »
    The first AND second Victoria Cross medals of WW1 were won by Irishmen.

    What's not to be proud of?

    tac

    Medals won while fighting for an evil empire that has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing around the world.
    roundymac wrote: »
    What's vile about it? Only for them you would not be able to write this if the Germans had their way in WW1 & WW2.

    Should I thank them for the crimes the British Army have committed in my country?


  • #96
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    evil empire

    why the adjective?

    Has every nation that become powerful enough to become an empire not done unpleasant things?

    I wouldn't consider them traitors, we were part of the UK at the time end of story.


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  • #97
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Medals won while fighting for an evil empire that has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing around the world.



    Should I thank them for the crimes the British Army have committed in my country?

    Do you thank the Provos for the crimes they have committed in our country and in our country's name?


  • #98
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    So what do you think of ISIS and Al Qeada com pred to the UK and US?


  • #99
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Medals won while fighting for an evil empire that has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing around the world.



    Should I thank them for the crimes the British Army have committed in my country?


    yawn.

    If you really want to carry on making political pie out of something that happened a hundred years ago in one case, and seventy years ago in another, I'd be grateful if you add a little more informative context to your comment and less hysterical foaming. The British stopped having any real interest in your country in 1922 - since then you've been on your own, but more than welcome to join in any fight that the British might be holding from time to time, as the nigh-on endless awards for bravery that gallant Irishmen have won since then. If you REALLY want to impress me - and maybe a few others here - you might make a good start by finding relatives of Paddy Mayne, and telling them that you think that he was a traitor, or another Paddy, Finucane by name.

    I'll hold your coat. :)

    tac


  • #100
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Are you really suggesting that zebra 3 drive around Northern Ireland harassing elderly men and women?
    Is that your idea of soldiering?
    tac foley wrote: »
    yawn.

    If you really want to carry on making political pie out of something that happened a hundred years ago in one case, and seventy years ago in another, I'd be grateful if you add a little more informative context to your comment and less hysterical foaming. The British stopped having any real interest in your country in 1922 - since then you've been on your own, but more than welcome to join in any fight that the British might be holding from time to time, as the nigh-on endless awards for bravery that gallant Irishmen have won since then. If you REALLY want to impress me - and maybe a few others here - you might make a good start by finding relatives of Paddy Mayne, and telling them that you think that he was a traitor, or another Paddy, Finucane by name.

    I'll hold your coat. :)

    tac


  • #101
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    roundymac wrote: »
    What's vile about it? Only for them you would not be able to write this if the Germans had their way in WW1 & WW2.
    Why would the Germans have prevented anyone from criticising the British Empire? Or is this a sort of butterfly wing alternative history thing like in let's go to Golgotha?


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