Air source heat pump

LoriB · 10-04-2013 2:28pm #1

Does anyone have any experience with -snip- oschner heat pump? I understand it boasts different technology. Please pm me if any experience is known

jockcass · 11-04-2013 10:39am

I too would be very interested in this subject as i am considering such a venture but very wary about running costs.

TutuKaka · 12-04-2013 12:22pm

I was talking to these guys at the energy show yesterday.
I have already received a quote from these guys by email and it is pretty expensive, nearly €30,000 before vat.

As you would expect they were well able to answer any basic questions regarding performance. They seem pretty professional and what was interesting was that they would guarantee the running costs. I assume this was once you provided details of your build and the airtightness figures.

I'd still like to hear from any existing clients to see if they are happy with their system.

Condenser · 12-04-2013 9:03pm

Good air source units are expensive and you'd still be better off going ground source as it should work out cheaper to fit and cheaper to run.

LoriB · 13-04-2013 11:08pm

Tutu, we were quoted similar money and also quoted running costs based on the size etc. I visited a neighbour who has it and he is very pleased with it but he has only finished his build about 1 month Ago. A longer testimony / review would be great

brophis · 14-04-2013 2:51am

I have a Mitsubishi air source heat pump. Got this, 60 kingspan tubes, HRV, 500l cylinder, ufh all supplied and fitted for less than €30k! 2800 sq ft house. The price of €30k seems fairly expensive alright. Running costs for last couple of months for heating alone were €100 per month. I'm still trying different temperatures and running times etc. I've decided to switch to night rate electricity which will almost cut this in half which is better still.

When I was getting quotes all the suppliers were over spec'ing big time trying to sell me 14kW and 16kW units which were twice the price of the 8.5kW unit I went with in the end. After testing If I was to go again I might even have gone with the 5kW unit as at times I find that the unit I have is running harder than it needs to even in its lowest output state and never runs near max output unless heating hot water.
I found air source units were cheaper than ground source at the time.

Tommyboy08 · 18-04-2013 9:53pm

brophis wrote: »

I have a Mitsubishi air source heat pump. Got this, 60 kingspan tubes, HRV, 500l cylinder, ufh all supplied and fitted for less than €30k! 2800 sq ft house. The price of €30k seems fairly expensive alright. Running costs for last couple of months for heating alone were €100 per month. I'm still trying different temperatures and running times etc. I've decided to switch to night rate electricity which will almost cut this in half which is better still.

When I was getting quotes all the suppliers were over spec'ing big time trying to sell me 14kW and 16kW units which were twice the price of the 8.5kW unit I went with in the end. After testing If I was to go again I might even have gone with the 5kW unit as at times I find that the unit I have is running harder than it needs to even in its lowest output state and never runs near max output unless heating hot water.
I found air source units were cheaper than ground source at the time.

Don't bother changing to nightrate when you have an air source unit as it won't half your bill or anywhere near it, your system already has poor performance when running during the day so can you imagine what it'll be like when running at night, plus your just gonna get robbed for the rest of the household usage during the day and bigger standing charges ect
Stick with the slightly cheaper day rate and run your system when you need heat in the house not at night when everyone is tucked under a duvet,

brophis · 19-04-2013 12:19am

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Don't bother changing to nightrate when you have an air source unit as it won't half your bill or anywhere near it, your system already has poor performance when running during the day so can you imagine what it'll be like when running at night, plus your just gonna get robbed for the rest of the household usage during the day and bigger standing charges ect
Stick with the slightly cheaper day rate and run your system when you need heat in the house not at night when everyone is tucked under a duvet,

On paper maybe but in practice in my scenario it's going to cut it in half and cost sfa to heat my house. I can't speak for the performance of other people's air source heat pumps but the performance of mine is far from poor. I've been monitoring energy consumption day and night so I don't need to imagine and it doesn't appear to be bothered by low temperatures. I think the trick is to run the ufh at a low temp, eg 30-35 degrees. The house is lovely and toasty. Granted the floor doesn't feel as warn to touch as running it higher but you get over that quickly when everywhere is warm.

The day rate isn't very much more expensive at all and standing charge isn't that much either. The savings made on the running of the heatpump offset the difference easily.

I've tried nearly every scenario:
- setting stats and letting heatpump come on and off when needed. What I found was that the heatpump was turning on and off a lot as independent rooms would call for temperature at different times and the response time was long (75mm concrete screed). House was kept warm but heatpump running more than it should be. Even running on its lowest setting it has a minimum energy usage and an overshoot of at least an hour in each room adds to the running time.

- setting heat pump to run a couple of hours in morning 6-8 and as long as it likes between 2pm and 10pm to get higher ambient air temps and heating when occupied. Running cost reduced as running time lowered but house was colder that it could be in morning after cooling down overnight and two hours in morning not enough. I tried various other combinations of times.

- reduced flow temp to 25-30 degrees. Less power usage but has to run longer. Encounter the minimum power usage problem again where on paper it's more efficient but in practice slightly different. Also the heat pump would kick in and out to keep flow temp so low.

- after the above findings I decided to run the heat pump harder and run all zones between 1-8am or till desired temp is reached. Running costs were no more as the duration of running the pump was restricted. The house temperature was more stable over 24 hours as the night time cool down was better compensated for. It charges up the concrete screed and that keeps pumping out warmth till the next heat pump run even on a cloudy day. Also as I've solar heating, on a sunny day the whole house gets heated by the sun and reduces the demand for heating from the heatpump during the next nightly run as some rooms don't need to be reheated.. Seems to work well that way.

I've measured the usage and i'm definitely going to cut the bill for heating and hot water in half. €300-€400 a year at current usage provided we don't have a freezing summer! Not bad for an inefficient heat pump! I happen to have a dishwasher and washing machine with time delays also which is a plus. I've to tweak the weather compensation set points but I'll master them with time and some number crunching. That was a bit more long winded than I had planned but I just wanted to say that air source heat pumps don't seem to be as bad as some people claim and they're a good deal cheaper than ground source units.

jockcass · 21-04-2013 3:39pm

brophis wrote: »

On paper maybe but in practice in my scenario it's going to cut it in half and cost sfa to heat my house. I can't speak for the performance of other people's air source heat pumps but the performance of mine is far from poor. I've been monitoring energy consumption day and night so I don't need to imagine and it doesn't appear to be bothered by low temperatures. I think the trick is to run the ufh at a low temp, eg 30-35 degrees. The house is lovely and toasty. Granted the floor doesn't feel as warn to touch as running it higher but you get over that quickly when everywhere is warm.

The day rate isn't very much more expensive at all and standing charge isn't that much either. The savings made on the running of the heatpump offset the difference easily.

I've tried nearly every scenario:
- setting stats and letting heatpump come on and off when needed. What I found was that the heatpump was turning on and off a lot as independent rooms would call for temperature at different times and the response time was long (75mm concrete screed). House was kept warm but heatpump running more than it should be. Even running on its lowest setting it has a minimum energy usage and an overshoot of at least an hour in each room adds to the running time.

- setting heat pump to run a couple of hours in morning 6-8 and as long as it likes between 2pm and 10pm to get higher ambient air temps and heating when occupied. Running cost reduced as running time lowered but house was colder that it could be in morning after cooling down overnight and two hours in morning not enough. I tried various other combinations of times.

- reduced flow temp to 25-30 degrees. Less power usage but has to run longer. Encounter the minimum power usage problem again where on paper it's more efficient but in practice slightly different. Also the heat pump would kick in and out to keep flow temp so low.

- after the above findings I decided to run the heat pump harder and run all zones between 1-8am or till desired temp is reached. Running costs were no more as the duration of running the pump was restricted. The house temperature was more stable over 24 hours as the night time cool down was better compensated for. It charges up the concrete screed and that keeps pumping out warmth till the next heat pump run even on a cloudy day. Also as I've solar heating, on a sunny day the whole house gets heated by the sun and reduces the demand for heating from the heatpump during the next nightly run as some rooms don't need to be reheated.. Seems to work well that way.

I've measured the usage and i'm definitely going to cut the bill for heating and hot water in half. €300-€400 a year at current usage provided we don't have a freezing summer! Not bad for an inefficient heat pump! I happen to have a dishwasher and washing machine with time delays also which is a plus. I've to tweak the weather compensation set points but I'll master them with time and some number crunching. That was a bit more long winded than I had planned but I just wanted to say that air source heat pumps don't seem to be as bad as some people claim and they're a good deal cheaper than ground source units.

All very interesting - I have a 4000 +sq ft Hse in rural setting . We run a lot of electrical appliances and use a lot of hot water.

Have oil fired underfloor heating and spend circa 8000pa on oil and about 4 k on electricity which is huge.

House 10yrs old and reasonably well insulated but don't want to compromise on comfort and stats set to 21c - changed stats from radio to wired which has improved performance a lot ( individual rooms all better controlled ).

Am considering going whole hog with wind turbine and air source pump -> anyone have any experience on whether this would eliminate most of my energy costs - reckon payback would be quick if both systems rendered house self sustaining for energy ??

Gilbert Grape · 21-04-2013 3:45pm

-snip- i have installed these units which are top of the market also -snip- do a good system

brophis · 21-04-2013 8:00pm

For reference I've a 2800 sq ft house and a Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5kW heat pump.

Condenser · 21-04-2013 9:03pm

Gilbert Grape wrote: »

http://domesticheating.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/ i have installed these units which are top of the market also Daiken Altherma do a good system http://www.daikin.co.uk/domestic/needs/heating/renovate-replace-your-oil-or-gas-burner/daikin-altherma-high-temperature/[/QUOTE]

Neither the Mitsubishi nor the Daikin are top of the market or anywhere near it apart from perhaps in sales due to their low price and questionable criteria when deciding whether a HP is appropriate.

Condenser · 21-04-2013 9:09pm

jockcass wrote: »

All very interesting - I have a 4000 +sq ft Hse in rural setting . We run a lot of electrical appliances and use a lot of hot water.

Have oil fired underfloor heating and spend circa 8000pa on oil and about 4 k on electricity which is huge.

House 10yrs old and reasonably well insulated but don't want to compromise on comfort and stats set to 21c - changed stats from radio to wired which has improved performance a lot ( individual rooms all better controlled ).

Am considering going whole hog with wind turbine and air source pump -> anyone have any experience on whether this would eliminate most of my energy costs - reckon payback would be quick if both systems rendered house self sustaining for energy ??

Whether you should use a HP or not will depend on your heat distribution system and at what temp it can satisfy your heat requirements. I certainly wouldn't use air source.
Something wrong with your overall build however if you are spending €12K a year on a not unusally substantial house.

Gilbert Grape · 22-04-2013 12:51am

Condenser wrote: »

Gilbert Grape wrote: »

http://domesticheating.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/ i have installed these units which are top of the market also Daiken Altherma do a good system http://www.daikin.co.uk/domestic/needs/heating/renovate-replace-your-oil-or-gas-burner/daikin-altherma-high-temperature/[/QUOTE]

Neither the Mitsubishi nor the Daikin are top of the market or anywhere near it apart from perhaps in sales due to their low price and questionable criteria when deciding whether a HP is appropriate.

You are mistaken my friend,where have you got your info from?

Condenser · 22-04-2013 9:31pm

Gilbert Grape wrote: »

Condenser wrote: »

You are mistaken my friend,where have you got your info from?

I'm far from mistaken. The heat pump this thread was started about is far more efficient than either of the units you mentioned as are a few others I could mention. Actually the top two units are more efficient at 2C than the Mits or Daikin are at 7C. Don't believe everything the rep tells you.

jockcass · 22-04-2013 10:09pm

Condenser wrote: »

Whether you should use a HP or not will depend on your heat distribution system and at what temp it can satisfy your heat requirements. I certainly wouldn't use air source.
Something wrong with your overall build however if you are spending €12K a year on a not unusally substantial house.

A colleague has a ground source heat pump in similar size house . Heat runs at constant comfortable temp. Like myself he has a lot of fridges and electrical appliances ( domestic ) but tells me his electric bills were over 1k a pop - >6k P/A .

As this is with a supposedly more efficient system than Air source I am a bit concerned about potential savings.

I have several double story void spaces but full manifold and individual stats for underfloor system so that part should be suitable. We also use a lot of hiot water with 4 kids and a wife who loves her bath ...

Thoughts would be appreciated .

Condenser · 22-04-2013 10:23pm

jockcass wrote: »

A colleague has a ground source heat pump in similar size house . Heat runs at constant comfortable temp. Like myself he has a lot of fridges and electrical appliances ( domestic ) but tells me his electric bills were over 1k a pop - >6k P/A .

As this is with a supposedly more efficient system than Air source I am a bit concerned about potential savings.

I have several double story void spaces but full manifold and individual stats for underfloor system so that part should be suitable. We also use a lot of hiot water with 4 kids and a wife who loves her bath ...

Thoughts would be appreciated .

You need to find out what water temp to the ufh runs at now and how low you can take the water temp before it can't sustain the room temp. The lower this is the more efficient the unit will be.
All issues with groundsource units are down to poor installation or wrong application such as rads.
If the distribution system can be ran at temps below 35C it should be possible to bring the heating costs down by 2/3rds or even more as there seems to be something seriously wrong with your system as it stands. €8k is ridicoulously excessive even if the house was badly insulated.

Obviously insulation is where you should look first, along with air infiltration but after that a properly installed GSHP would make a huge difference if the distribution temp can be ran at a reasonable level.

jockcass · 22-04-2013 10:26pm

Condenser wrote: »

You need to find out what water temp to the ufh runs at now and how low you can take the water temp before it can't sustain the room temp. The lower this is the more efficient the unit will be.
All issues with groundsource units are down to poor installation or wrong application such as rads.
If the distribution system can be ran at temps below 35C it should be possible to bring the heating costs down by 2/3rds or even more as there seems to be something seriously wrong with your system as it stands. €8k is ridicoulously excessive even if the house was badly insulated.

Obviously insulation is where you should look first, along with air infiltration but after that a properly installed GSHP would make a huge difference if the distribution temp can be ran at a reasonable level.

Thanks - food for thought .

MicktheMan · 23-04-2013 12:00am

Condenser wrote: »

Obviously insulation is where you should look first, along with air infiltration .

+1
Reduce the demand first and then satisfying it gets a lot easier (and cheaper)

Ros1234 · 24-04-2013 9:17pm

Condenser wrote: »

Gilbert Grape wrote: »

I'm far from mistaken. The heat pump this thread was started about is far more efficient than either of the units you mentioned as are a few others I could mention. Actually the top two units are more efficient at 2C than the Mits or Daikin are at 7C. Don't believe everything the rep tells you.

Hi Condenser, what are the top two brands?
I'm breaking ground next month and have decided on the air to water route with no solar panels. Let me what you think. Thanks.

Condenser · 24-04-2013 9:23pm

[QUOTE=Ros1234;84314498

Hi Condenser, what are the top two brands?
I'm breaking ground next month and have decided on the air to water route with no solar panels. Let me what you think. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ochsner and Heliotherm are the top two A2W units in terms of COP

fclauson · 26-04-2013 9:12pm

Ros1234 wrote: »

Condenser wrote: »

Hi Condenser, what are the top two brands?
I'm breaking ground next month and have decided on the air to water route with no solar panels. Let me what you think. Thanks.

before you break ground
1 - get a BER done
2 - get if you want a PHPP done

my house runs at 28 degrees flow temp when its 0 degrees outside which equates to about €3 of peak price - less if you factor in night rate and event less if you factor in PV

think and plan now - or regret later

Tommyboy08 · 26-04-2013 11:44pm

fclauson wrote: »

Ros1234 wrote: »

before you break ground
1 - get a BER done
2 - get if you want a PHPP done

my house runs at 28 degrees flow temp when its 0 degrees outside which equates to about €3 of peak price - less if you factor in night rate and event less if you factor in PV

think and plan now - or regret later

Exactly ros1234 think seriously about air to water before you make the mistake of buying one,
As fclauson has said Many times before he has the only A1 rated passive house in the country and his air to water unit uses €3 a day,
I live in a 2006 built c rated 3000sqft house which has a ground source heat pump which uses €3 a day also,
Shows the differences between the two systems,
I'd seriously consider ground source first, whatever you might save initially will look like small money when you have twice the running costs and a system with about half the life span.

fclauson · 27-04-2013 5:31am

our original plan was for ground source - but due to a number of constraints on site we changed to airsource

if your demand is low then the margin of difference in cost is very little

had a chap in this week to look at my build who is building in Clare overlooking the Atlantic - he did not want a a/s due to salt damage (TV aerials have a life expectancy of about 30 mins on the west cost due to salt corrosion :eek:)

so there will be other factors that will affect your choices

howman · 19-01-2014 9:01pm

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

fclauson wrote: »

Exactly ros1234 think seriously about air to water before you make the mistake of buying one,
As fclauson has said Many times before he has the only A1 rated passive house in the country and his air to water unit uses €3 a day,
I live in a 2006 built c rated 3000sqft house which has a ground source heat pump which uses €3 a day also,
Shows the differences between the two systems,
I'd seriously consider ground source first, whatever you might save initially will look like small money when you have twice the running costs and a system with about half the life span.

Hi Tommy

We are mulling over heating systems right now, have heard some nightmares about air source {cold weather, unit works in reverse, taking heat from the house to protect itself, expensive to run}, ground source {running costs, high noise levels, issues with compressor}

Going to have a high level of insulation, air heat recovery system, south facing with significant glass, looking at ufh except maybe bedrooms.

Getting a lot of contradictory advice, from ground source, air source, solar panels, to just use traditional heating methods as well insulated are cheap to run.

House is 2900sqf, concrete slab floor, living area top floor, sleepin area bottom (making the most of views and natural gradient of site)

Appreciate all feed back.

Cheers
Howman

jockcass · 20-01-2014 5:34pm

Well guys - made the plunge & switched to air source heat pump ( Oschner ).

Needed two units connected in series as worked out better than 1 larger one which required 3 phase electricity upgrade.

Very pleased with results - Heat & comfort levels in house are excellent & 21 C ( I know it is high but I like my comfort ).

On initial testing over last 2 1/2 months it seems to be costing around 100 per month to heat a house which is almost 5000 sq ft , large void areas and uses 2 x 300L tankls of water daily approx.

Compared to average 7500 on oil bills this is huge saving & provides improved comfort levels.

I did have insulation checked & replaced a few hinges in windows but required few major upgrades and am delighted with new system so far.

Daigon installed and very happw with service levels , explanations and install.

Will know more in a few months ....

JD6910 · 22-01-2014 6:34pm

howman wrote: »

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Hi Tommy

We are mulling over heating systems right now, have heard some nightmares about air source {cold weather, unit works in reverse, taking heat from the house to protect itself, expensive to run}, ground source {running costs, high noise levels, issues with compressor}

Going to have a high level of insulation, air heat recovery system, south facing with significant glass, looking at ufh except maybe bedrooms.

Getting a lot of contradictory advice, from ground source, air source, solar panels, to just use traditional heating methods as well insulated are cheap to run.

House is 2900sqf, concrete slab floor, living area top floor, sleepin area bottom (making the most of views and natural gradient of site)

Appreciate all feed back.

Cheers
Howman

howman - my simple advice would be to insulate and airtight the house and then pop in a simple tried and tested boiler and solar and a good stove. keep your heat demand to a minimum and satisfy this demand by a simply, cheap tried and tested heating system. also lots to be said for a system that can be maintained by any plumber. as tommyboy will concur - heat pumps if not done correctly are a nightmare and difficult to maintain afterwards... and typically need a specialist such as tommyboy...

DeeJunFan · 04-02-2014 2:48pm

Anyone got any price comparisons for the Daikin vs Ochsner?

Doing a self build of 3000sf. No space for Ground Source.

My sister has a similar house and has the Daikin and is pretty happy with it but she has 100mm sand/cement screed and runs the pump at night. I was hoping for thinner liquid screed for faster response times.

House will be block built, well insulated and farily air-tight.

Would anyone recommend installing solar thermal with the air to water heat pumps?

Thanks

JD6910 · 04-02-2014 6:39pm

DeeJunFan wrote: »

Anyone got any price comparisons for the Daikin vs Ochsner?

Doing a self build of 3000sf. No space for Ground Source.

My sister has a similar house and has the Daikin and is pretty happy with it but she has 100mm sand/cement screed and runs the pump at night. I was hoping for thinner liquid screed for faster response times.

House will be block built, well insulated and farily air-tight.

Would anyone recommend installing solar thermal with the air to water heat pumps?

Thanks

do FULL airtightness not partial!!!

if you do excellent airtightness and super insulation, a simple oil or gas boiler will do your heating. i reckon my total spend on gas for the year including cooking will be no more that 800euro absolute maximum. house is circa 3000 sq ft. nice simple system installed with solar panels. easy to maintain by any plumber. solar panels have practically no running costs and no maintanence. lots of mixed stories on here about heat pumps.

DeeJunFan · 04-02-2014 10:25pm

JD6910 wrote: »

do FULL airtightness not partial!!!

if you do excellent airtightness and super insulation, a simple oil or gas boiler will do your heating. i reckon my total spend on gas for the year including cooking will be no more that 800euro absolute maximum. house is circa 3000 sq ft. nice simple system installed with solar panels. easy to maintain by any plumber. solar panels have practically no running costs and no maintanence. lots of mixed stories on here about heat pumps.

Thanks for the reply, i wasn't thinking partial air-tightness. in NI the current building regs are 10m3/hr/m2 airchanges but my target would be 2m3 or below.

My architect has advised not going above 100mm in the wall cavity using grey/silver bonded beads. says that above that would be non-standard and a lot more expensive.

going for 125mm of floor insulation and 300 in the roof.

Also going to insulate the roof itself as i want to use the attic space.

For air-tightness i will be using a sealer called CT1 was advised as it is very long lasting, will also be using air-tightness tape on all windows/doors and any pipe/wiring work.

My sister has the Daikin split system with same kind of spec house and 100mm sand/cement screed and is very happy with the performance.

I was thinking of going for the monobloc system (around a €2000 grant) as its an easier install, say 50mm liquid screed and 30 tube solar panel feeding the cylinder.

Nothing is started as yet so trying to get the best setup possible in the long term.

I am a bit iffy about relying on oil (no gas in my area) but i suppose relying on electricity could be just as costly.

Thanks

JD6910 · 05-02-2014 12:12pm

DeeJunFan wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, i wasn't thinking partial air-tightness. in NI the current building regs are 10m3/hr/m2 airchanges but my target would be 2m3 or below.

My architect has advised not going above 100mm in the wall cavity using grey/silver bonded beads. says that above that would be non-standard and a lot more expensive.

going for 125mm of floor insulation and 300 in the roof.

Also going to insulate the roof itself as i want to use the attic space.

For air-tightness i will be using a sealer called CT1 was advised as it is very long lasting, will also be using air-tightness tape on all windows/doors and any pipe/wiring work.

My sister has the Daikin split system with same kind of spec house and 100mm sand/cement screed and is very happy with the performance.

I was thinking of going for the monobloc system (around a €2000 grant) as its an easier install, say 50mm liquid screed and 30 tube solar panel feeding the cylinder.

Nothing is started as yet so trying to get the best setup possible in the long term.

I am a bit iffy about relying on oil (no gas in my area) but i suppose relying on electricity could be just as costly.

Thanks

i dont have mains gas either. i got an LPG tank buried in the site. this gas is doing my cooking also, so no need for ugly cylinders outside kitchen window. also bulk LPG gas is cheaper to buy. cant be stolen etc... gas companies give good deals on annual rent, first fill free etc... the trick is to have a super insulated house that wont use alot of gas thereafter!!!;)

Curious Geroge · 05-02-2014 5:28pm

DeeJunFan wrote: »

I was thinking of going for the monobloc system (around a €2000 grant) as its an easier install, say 50mm liquid screed and 30 tube solar panel feeding the cylinder.
Thanks

A grant for a HP ?

afinador · 05-02-2014 7:46pm

Alas, no grants available for Heat Pumps that I'm aware of...condenser burners, solar,attic, cavity/external insulation but not for MHRV or HP

DeeJunFan · 06-02-2014 12:20pm

Curious Geroge wrote: »

A grant for a HP ?

As far as i am aware. I'm building in Northern Ireland and there is a grant of £1700 for heat pumps and £380 towards solar.

Thermal solar is then eligible of a micro-generation payment of 9p per KW/H for 20 years.

They have been chopping and changing the grants and Feed in tarriff system so much its hard to know exactly where its at right now but it think this is correct at the moment.

afinador · 06-02-2014 12:22pm

Gotcha...missed the NI bit. Longing for the day they'll let us feed back into the grid down here!

BarneyMc · 07-02-2014 8:14am

afinador wrote: »

Gotcha...missed the NI bit. Longing for the day they'll let us feed back into the grid down here!

I think they already do, although at a much lower rate?

DeeJunFan · 07-02-2014 2:49pm

Just got off the phone to my architect and its been a while since we have spoken so he has updated his advice.

Walls - 150mm (minimum)
Floor - 200mm
Roof - 300mm

I have also spoken to a number of suppliers of heat pumps and all bar one are more secretive with prices than KFC with the 11 secret herbs and spices.

Spoke to a guy based in Mullingar and his prices for Daikin are extremely good but i cannot get prices from anyone else as yet. He specified a sginificant price difference between the monobloc and splite system and another firm told me there was not difference in price (for the unit or installation)

One supplier also told me that a 300sq/m house was too big for Air Source Heat pump??

Very confused!

DeeJunFan wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, i wasn't thinking partial air-tightness. in NI the current building regs are 10m3/hr/m2 airchanges but my target would be 2m3 or below.

My architect has advised not going above 100mm in the wall cavity using grey/silver bonded beads. says that above that would be non-standard and a lot more expensive.

going for 125mm of floor insulation and 300 in the roof.

Also going to insulate the roof itself as i want to use the attic space.

For air-tightness i will be using a sealer called CT1 was advised as it is very long lasting, will also be using air-tightness tape on all windows/doors and any pipe/wiring work.

My sister has the Daikin split system with same kind of spec house and 100mm sand/cement screed and is very happy with the performance.

I was thinking of going for the monobloc system (around a €2000 grant) as its an easier install, say 50mm liquid screed and 30 tube solar panel feeding the cylinder.

Nothing is started as yet so trying to get the best setup possible in the long term.

I am a bit iffy about relying on oil (no gas in my area) but i suppose relying on electricity could be just as costly.

Thanks

jockcass · 07-02-2014 6:01pm

Run like hell from that supplier ( <3000 sq ft ...) and anyone associated with them.

Air Source heat pumps are running in several hotels I know of , never mind large houses & a few institutions such as nursing homes etc.

I have an A/S pump ( Oschner installed by Daigon ) in a house just shy of 5000 sq ft. It is really comfortable and much cheaper to run than oil. It was a retrofit , but I did have oak floors & U/F heating throughout building which made things easier for retrofit ....

N.B. I was a sceptic and dithered a lot before installing as earlier posts will show , and I ahve no association other than as a customer with any heating/energy company.

pacman23555 · 12-03-2014 11:48pm

Hi all, really good informative thread here.

I'm going to build and am pondering over the heating system. Going to go with a -snip-air source heat pump and underfloor heating. No design for house yet but will probably be circa 2000sqft.

Anyone have a ball park figure of what this would all cost? What would each be if separated out? ie underfloor heating installed and then the heat pump/cylinder etc.

Also, Is there any need to install tubes too?

Appreciate any comments at all. Plus any thoughts on how good the -snip- heat pumps are!

Thanks a million.

Old Jim · 13-03-2014 8:34am

pacman23555 wrote: »

Hi all, really good informative thread here.

I'm going to build and am pondering over the heating system. Going to go with a -snip- air source heat pump and underfloor heating. No design for house yet but will probably be circa 2000sqft.

Anyone have a ball park figure of what this would all cost? What would each be if separated out? ie underfloor heating installed and then the heat pump/cylinder etc.

I got a quote for a-snip- 12KW A2W HP of €6,200 incl VAT for my 2000sq. ft house. UFH was €4k for both upstairs and down. They didn't specify but I don't think these included installation costs. Company was in-snip-

Tommyboy08 · 14-03-2014 7:38am

Old Jim wrote: »

I got a quote for a -snip- 12KW A2W HP of €6,200 incl VAT for my 2000sq. ft house. UFH was €4k for both upstairs and down. They didn't specify but I don't think these included installation costs. Company was in-snip-.

I would have said that 12ke is way to big for a house of that size, but I know the -snip-heat pump and it is very poor, system is set to run at 50C so it's output is much lower as a result, prob about 9kw but that's 9kw at a rubbish cop, it's just a bad system design with a lack of control, same probs with the joule -snip- heat pump system

25-05-2014 11:23am

jockcass wrote: »

Well guys - made the plunge & switched to air source heat pump ( Oschner ).

Needed two units connected in series as worked out better than 1 larger one which required 3 phase electricity upgrade.

Very pleased with results - Heat & comfort levels in house are excellent & 21 C ( I know it is high but I like my comfort ).

On initial testing over last 2 1/2 months it seems to be costing around 100 per month to heat a house which is almost 5000 sq ft , large void areas and uses 2 x 300L tankls of water daily approx.

Compared to average 7500 on oil bills this is huge saving & provides improved comfort levels.

I did have insulation checked & replaced a few hinges in windows but required few major upgrades and am delighted with new system so far.

Daigon installed and very happw with service levels , explanations and install.

Will know more in a few months ....

Hi, My house is similar to yours with similar high energy bills, so I too am interested in this new system. Can u tell me is your boiler house close to your house or joined on and if the pipes coming from the boiler house are well insulatedl? I have received some quotes for heating pumps and most say I need to insulate my pipes coming from the boiler house for the hp to work but with the supplier you mentioned they are saying my pipes shouldn't be a problem. I am interested to see if u had to carry out this insulation in order to achieve the savings u quoted?

25-05-2014 11:25am

jockcass wrote: »

Well guys - made the plunge & switched to air source heat pump ( Oschner ).

Needed two units connected in series as worked out better than 1 larger one which required 3 phase electricity upgrade.

Very pleased with results - Heat & comfort levels in house are excellent & 21 C ( I know it is high but I like my comfort ).

On initial testing over last 2 1/2 months it seems to be costing around 100 per month to heat a house which is almost 5000 sq ft , large void areas and uses 2 x 300L tankls of water daily approx.

Compared to average 7500 on oil bills this is huge saving & provides improved comfort levels.

I did have insulation checked & replaced a few hinges in windows but required few major upgrades and am delighted with new system so far.

Daigon installed and very happw with service levels , explanations and install.

Will know more in a few months ....

Hi, My house is similar to yours with similar high energy bills, so I too am interested in this new system. Can u tell me is your boiler house close to your house or joined on and if the pipes coming from the boiler house are well insulatedl? I have received some quotes for heating pumps and most say I need to insulate my pipes coming from the boiler house for the hp to work but with the supplier you mentioned they are saying my pipes shouldn't be a problem. I am interested to see if u had to carry out this insulation in order to achieve the savings u quoted?

25-05-2014 11:25am

jockcass wrote: »

Well guys - made the plunge & switched to air source heat pump ( Oschner ).

Needed two units connected in series as worked out better than 1 larger one which required 3 phase electricity upgrade.

Very pleased with results - Heat & comfort levels in house are excellent & 21 C ( I know it is high but I like my comfort ).

On initial testing over last 2 1/2 months it seems to be costing around 100 per month to heat a house which is almost 5000 sq ft , large void areas and uses 2 x 300L tankls of water daily approx.

Compared to average 7500 on oil bills this is huge saving & provides improved comfort levels.

I did have insulation checked & replaced a few hinges in windows but required few major upgrades and am delighted with new system so far.

Daigon installed and very happw with service levels , explanations and install.

Will know more in a few months ....

Hi, My house is similar to yours with similar high energy bills, so I too am interested in this new system. Can u tell me is your boiler house close to your house or joined on and if the pipes coming from the boiler house are well insulated i.e with new type insulated pipes? I have received some quotes for heating pumps and most say I need to insulate my pipes to the new type insulation for the pipes coming from the boiler house, for the hp to work, but with the supplier you mentioned they are saying my pipes shouldn't be a problem. I am interested to see if u had to carry out this insulation as well in order to achieve the savings u quoted?

The Gambler 101 · 10-06-2014 11:56am

Interesting thread.

Currently in the process of understanding HP and UFH for a two story 3200sq ft build (11kw to 16kw have been advised) with concrete slabs.

Have received quotes from two suppliers for both Air to Water & Geothermal so far, both include UFH.

However, both providers are rating annual costs differently which is quite confusing, below is the costs and estimated annual running costs. Can anyone advise on the running costs

Air to Water -
both approx €16k ex Vat
Annual Running Costs differ from €600/700 to €1200

Geothermal
€17k ex vat & €19k ex vat
Annual Running Costs differ from €900 to €1400

threeball · 10-06-2014 5:25pm

The Gambler 101 wrote: »

Interesting thread.

Currently in the process of understanding HP and UFH for a two story 3200sq ft build (11kw to 16kw have been advised) with concrete slabs.

Have received quotes from two suppliers for both Air to Water & Geothermal so far, both include UFH.

However, both providers are rating annual costs differently which is quite confusing, below is the costs and estimated annual running costs. Can anyone advise on the running costs

Air to Water -
both approx €16k ex Vat
Annual Running Costs differ from €600/700 to €1200

Geothermal
€17k ex vat & €19k ex vat
Annual Running Costs differ from €900 to €1400

Anyone who says the air to water would be cheaper to run than ground source is talking through their hat, unless the system is installed incorrectly.
Have they indicated how they came up with these running figures i.e what parameters they're designed to and are they like for like.

10-06-2014 8:04pm

The Gambler 101 wrote: »

Interesting thread.

Currently in the process of understanding HP and UFH for a two story 3200sq ft build (11kw to 16kw have been advised) with concrete slabs.

Have received quotes from two suppliers for both Air to Water & Geothermal so far, both include UFH.

However, both providers are rating annual costs differently which is quite confusing, below is the costs and estimated annual running costs. Can anyone advise on the running costs

Air to Water -
both approx €16k ex Vat
Annual Running Costs differ from €600/700 to €1200

Geothermal
€17k ex vat & €19k ex vat
Annual Running Costs differ from €900 to €1400

Are those prices including fitting the ufh itself, if so that sounds very cheap. I am getting quotes of around €15k just for an ashp to replace oil boiler and that doesn't include heating the dhw. Can I ask what makes are your quotes for?

The Gambler 101 · 16-06-2014 12:19pm

Yes, both include UFH on ground and first floor. The Ochnser system is working out a lot more expensive, approx 4k extra just for the hp.

dc14 · 28-06-2014 11:53am

Hi,
Sorry to butt in here, but I'm also looking for some advice & rather than starting another thread about A2W heatpumps, I thought it would be better to keep all of the info together.

I’m building a house at the moment approx. 2,900 sq ft over three floors. It will be well insulated with a provisional BER of A3. We will have a stove in the kitchen/family room, but we're hoping to go with an A2W heatpump as the main heating/hot water system. However, I’m getting different information on them depending on who I talk to.

So, my questions are:

1. Rads: The house will not have UFH, so we’ll need rads throughout but some people (builder & HP salespeople) have said that we would need Alu rads as they are more suitable for heatpump systems. Others (including other Heatpump suppliers) have said that this isn’t necessary and that steel rads are the way to go.

2. The two heatpump systems the builder has suggested are -snip- which is his preference. -snip- is cheaper by about €2,500 which is a lot of money, but it seems to be a relatively new partnership and I want this system to last a long time. I also read that the controls are not great on the -snip-

3. I’m hoping that at some stage when PV Solar becomes more realistic in terms of ROI, this would power the heatpump, making it really renewable. What do you think?

4. While the heatpumps are generally guaranteed for just two years, the salespeople are saying that they would have a life of 20-25 years (of course they are), in fact one said that their brand has heatpumps still running 40 years later! What would be the realistic life of one of these -snip-

5. Should I be considering any other -snip- etc? They seem to get good reviews.

I’d really appreciate any advice as I seem to be going one step forward & two steps back all the time.

Thanks,
dc14

murphaph · 28-06-2014 3:49pm

Heat pumps of all flavours are low temp devices which is why they are better suited to use with UFH which is also low temp. Radiators are high temp. Anything is possible but you're going to be reducing the COP of the heat pump this way.

That's my lay man's understanding of the issue.

dc14 · 29-06-2014 8:00pm

Yeah, that's why the builder is saying to go with Alu rads, they are lower temp than normal. Has anyone got an idea about how much this would affect the COP?

Also, which is the best brand -snip-

Air source heat pump

Comments