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Positives from IMF takeover?

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    #32
    ilovelamp2000
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    At what is your opinion on our public service so? That it is not over-bloated to the point where it has destroyed the public finances? There is far more workers than work to be done. It is exponentially more in fact.

    I'd imagine some of it is bloated, like the HSE. But I'd imagine some of it is run pretty well. And I think everybody knows what has destroyed the public finances at this stage. The banks. The public service and social welfare bills do need looking at, but most commentators have acknowledge they were manageable without outside help. The bank guarantee is the major issue.

    It would be no harm for you to do a bit of research on the IMF too. You could start here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056082697

    It's also worth having a look at the mess the IMF has made of countries it was "helping". They aren't here for our benefit. They are here because there is a carcass that can be picked. It'll be interesting to see whether there's a push to sell off public utilities to multinational companies like there has been in the developing world.


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    #33
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    ilovelamp2000 wrote: »
    I'd imagine some of it is bloated, like the HSE. But I'd imagine some of it is run pretty well. And I think everybody knows what has destroyed the public finances at this stage. The banks. The public service and social welfare bills do need looking at, but most commentators have acknowledge they were manageable without outside help. The bank guarantee is the major issue.

    It would be no harm for you to do a bit of research on the IMF too. You could start here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056082697

    It's also worth having a look at the mess the IMF has made of countries it was "helping". They aren't here for our benefit. They are here because there is a carcass that can be picked. It'll be interesting to see whether there's a push to sell off public utilities to multinational companies like there has been in the developing world.

    I know the IMF don't actually make the final decision but you can bet it will be 95-100% of the decision they wanted. We need to please them to get money from them. So we must do what they want us to do. Of course they destroy countries, they want their money back. I have no doubt they will destroy this country for 3-4 years but it is what emerges the far side is important. There are still hundreds of thousands of children in this country who know sweet FA about what is going on but their needs to be a country for them to live in which is better than the current state.


    Yes I know some of the public service is very well run, I am taking it as a whole entity. There are serious areas of gravy training in the PS it cant be denied. In other areas there is nothing of the sort but because if the way the whole PS system is setup it needs a total reform. In relation to what you said it could easily have been sorted internally but how long would it take? Seriously - I would have no faith in any Irish government reforming the PS in the next 10 years. We have no funds for a redundancy scheme. None whatsoever. Some of the IMF money will need to be used for this.

    On your last point, I think they will sell off the ESB and Bord Gais, possibly CIE and the water industry.


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    #34
    ilovelamp2000
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    I know the IMF don't actually make the final decision but you can bet it will be 95-100% of the decision they wanted. We need to please them to get money from them. So we must do what they want us to do. Of course they destroy countries, they want their money back. I have no doubt they will destroy this country for 3-4 years but it is what emerges the far side is important. There are still hundreds of thousands of children in this country who know sweet FA about what is going on but their needs to be a country for them to live in which is better than the current state.


    Yes I know some of the public service is very well run, I am taking it as a whole entity. There are serious areas of gravy training in the PS it cant be denied. In other areas there is nothing of the sort but because if the way the whole PS system is setup it needs a total reform.

    On your last point, I think they will sell off the ESB and Bord Gais, possibly CIE and the water industry.


    And privitisation of those areas simply doesn't work. We will end up paying more for those services.


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    #35
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,421 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    Oh yes they do. If the government don't follow the IMF the "bail-out" disappears and so does our country.

    Ah stop will ya.
    OUR COUNTRY WILL DISAPPEAR.
    Will it, really......like sink into the ocean disappear.............

    FFS


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    #36
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    Yes we will but like every other state in the developed world all utilities are privately held.


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    #37
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    kippy wrote: »
    Ah stop will ya.
    OUR COUNTRY WILL DISAPPEAR.
    Will it, really......like sink into the ocean disappear.............

    FFS


    A country is defined by its borders, its constitution, its people and its culture. We are talking about control of a state here not a piece of land. So we let the UK or Germany loan us the money. What country do we belong to then?


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    #38
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,421 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    A country is defined by its borders, its constitution, its people and its culture. We are talking about control of a state here not a piece of land. So we let the UK or Germany loan us the money. What country do we belong to then?

    Who do you think has been loaning this country and it's banks (and by extension it's people) money for years?
    Do you think this is the first time we've had to get a loan of money?

    A country does not dissappear. The overly negative tones and views of many here are nothing but overkill.

    Yep, we're financially screwed, we're gonna have to make big changes (hopefully this is a wake up call) but in out public sector, taxation and indeed the way we elect our government and indeed the way that government is held accountable.
    But the country wont "disappear".
    Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

    Seriously, get outside, go for a walk, relax for a while, put things into perspective.


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    #39
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    1. A reformed public service, slimmed down with the necessary amount of staff & management (I foresee 100,000 civil servants being made redundant). This is a long term reform but the cuts will be immediate.

    That isn't a positive! :pac:

    Think about those 100,000 no?


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    #40
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    kippy wrote: »
    Who do you think has been loaning this country and it's banks (and by extension it's people) money for years?
    Do you think this is the first time we've had to get a loan of money?

    A country does not dissappear. The overly negative tones and views of many here are nothing but overkill.

    Yep, we're financially screwed, we're gonna have to make big changes (hopefully this is a wake up call) but in out public sector, taxation and indeed the way we elect our government and indeed the way that government is held accountable.
    But the country wont "disappear".
    Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

    Seriously, get outside, go for a walk, relax for a while, put things into perspective.

    Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

    No, I am saying where would we be if the IMF didnt come to help. We would have to ask another country.


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    #41
    ilovelamp2000
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    Yes we will but like every other state in the developed world all utilities are privately held.

    No they aren't.

    And how is us paying more for these things a good thing ?


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    #42
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,421 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    Did England dissappear when the IMF came in, has Hungry???

    No, I am saying where would we be if the IMF didnt come to help. We would have to ask another country.

    Do you know how the IMF are funded?

    Look, we've been getting lent money for years and years possibly since the foundation of the state (I dont actually know this for sure)


    If the IMF didnt come to help the euro would be fcuked as would multiple german, french and asian investors who lent to Ireland and Irish banks over the years.


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    #43
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That isn't a positive! :pac:

    Think about those 100,000 no?

    Yes my parents and my brother are possiblities for the chop along with several cousins, friends, in laws etc.

    It is in the overall context of our public service, we cant keep spending nearly 80% of our education budget and 75% of our health budget on salaries. These are the two most important services in the country yet the money being pumped into them doesnt goremotely near the right areas.


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    #44
    SantryRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That isn't a positive! :pac:

    Think about those 100,000 no?

    You can't get involved with all the sob stories.

    The IMF will come in and look at solely what is best for this country and to repay our debts to them. It will be fcuking brilliant if they come in. They won't be afraid to make cuts. They will want to turn the country around while our government just want to get back in power.


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    #45
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    ilovelamp2000 wrote: »
    No they aren't.

    And how is us paying more for these things a good thing ?


    I never said paying more was a good thing, I just responded to a question about selling off utilities.


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    #46
    ilovelamp2000
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    I never said paying more was a good thing, I just responded to a question about selling off utilities.

    But this is a likely result of the IMF coming in, which you argue will be positive.


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    #47
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    ilovelamp2000 wrote: »
    But this is a likely result of the IMF coming in, which you argue will be positive.


    I am trying to take the positives out of the IMF coming in. Not that the whole thing is positive - how is the whole thing positive? The country is ****ed right now. The IMF are going to do some seriously horrible things in the short term. Its the end results I was hoping for a debate on.


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    #48
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,421 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    I am trying to take the positives out of the IMF coming in. Not that the whole thing is positive - how is the whole thing positive? The country is ****ed right now. The IMF are going to do some seriously horrible things in the short term. Its the end results I was hoping for a debate on.

    "The End Results"
    Like the country disappearing???


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    #49
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    There are no positives to an IMF takeover. People posting in this thread licking their lips at the possible ripping apart of people's livelihoods are deluded. You all think that its going to fix everything you have a problem with (public sector in particular) but it won't affect you. The IMF does not do positive things for a country. It does not 'reform' anything. It doesn't pass legislation. It just rips away anything it can and leaves you with a shell of a functioning society. Do you think because people will be let go from the HSE its going to become anymore efficient? Its just going to get worse and worse, and it won't be able to improve even if a competent minister was in charge because the government's hands are tied by the IMF.


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    #50
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    SantryRed wrote: »
    You can't get involved with all the sob stories.

    The IMF will come in and look at solely what is best for this country and to repay our debts to them. It will be fcuking brilliant if they come in. They won't be afraid to make cuts. They will want to turn the country around while our government just want to get back in power.

    It's absolutely ridiculous to say that 100,000 people losing their jobs is a good thing, especially when a lot of these people have families to support.

    It's very easy when none of these things affect you to sit back on your high perch and say that they are excellent.


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    #51
    locomo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭locomo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    The IMF does not do positive things for a country.
    Would you rather they did not come in so? We cannot borrow money from anyone else, and if the IMF will not lend us money @ 5% then you will find next year the government cheques will bounce. We are spending 50 billion + taking in 30 billion. Whats really absurd is that they are called in to a country with the highest public sector pay in Europe, and social welfare in Louth over double that in Newry. Our government clearly got carried away with increases over the years, and did not cut enough over the past few years.


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    #52
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    locomo wrote: »
    Would you rather they did not come in so? We cannot borrow money from anyone else, and if the IMF will not lend us money @ 5% then you will find next year the government cheques will bounce. We are spending 50 billion + taking in 30 billion. Whats really absurd is that they are called in to a country with the highest public sector pay in Europe, and social welfare in Louth over double that in Newry. Our government clearly got carried away with increases over the years, and did not cut enough over the past few years.

    Of course I would rather they weren't here. I want a new government and different policies, the IMF/EU is just going to provide an even bigger bank guarantee, just like FF did a couple of years ago. That didn't work and its the most wasteful pointless method of dealing with the banking crisis there is. The IMF/EU bailout is not necessary at this minute and is being done for the benefit of the EU, not Ireland. People that can't see beyond the first policy they hear on something need to start doing some research and realising that despite FF's nonsense, yes there are alternatives, but not from FF.


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    #53
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Instead of BIFFO the slayer it will be BIFFE the slayer.....


    Think about it....


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    #54
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    locomo: One can hold that something is a bad thing, and accept that we don't have very much choice in the matter.

    Edit - but to pretend that 100,000 job losses is good is sadistic at best!


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    #55
    locomo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭locomo


    hogwort wrote: »
    Remember the IMF have no real power
    Oh yes they do, thank God. They are the people lending 80 or 100 billion to us and they have a right - and a responsibility to their " shareholders" to have a reasonable chance of getting that back some day, plus interest.
    Why should or would they lend it to us if we squander it on the highest paid public sector in Europe, and on crazy social welfare levels ?


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    #56
    locomo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭locomo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    to pretend that 100,000 job losses is good is sadistic at best!

    If they are the highest paid and pensioned public servants in Europe, and we continue to borrow 20 billion a year to support that situation, that is clearly unsustainable. There are 50,000 more public sector workers in jobs now in Ireland than in 2006. We cannot afford to live beyond our means, on borrowed money.


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    #57
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    locomo wrote: »
    If they are the highest paid and pensioned public servants in Europe, and we continue to borrow 20 billion a year to support that situation, that is clearly unsustainable. There are 50,000 more public sector workers in jobs now in Ireland than in 2006. We cannot afford to live beyond our means, on borrowed money.

    Again, I'm sure I'd have no functional difficulty in my own life if I suggested it would be great if you or others lost their jobs. In the end it isn't a good thing at all. This "ah sure, as long as I have my job" is great until it comes around to you.

    It's wholly selfish, and absolutely sickening if you ask me to refer to such things as "great". There's something wholly wrong about it.

    Get some level of empathy and you might begin to understand how terrible this is even if it does have to happen.

    Edit: It's always the elites that muck everything up, and its always the case that the every day workers have to pick up the tab. People are now skewering eachother.


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    #58
    locomo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭locomo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Get some level of empathy and you might begin to understand how terrible this is even if it does have to happen.
    On a personal level of course its terrible but the partys over and Hans in Germany is not going to continue to pay the public service here so much more than they are in Germany. The party's over for those who were lucky enough to be at it. For the good of the country we cannot continue to spend 50 billion when we only take in 30 (approx ) billion.


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    #59
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    locomo wrote: »
    On a personal level of course its terrible but the partys over and Hans in Germany is not going to continue to pay the public service here so much more than they are in Germany. The party's over for those who were lucky enough to be at it. For the good of the country we cannot continue to spend 50 billion when we only take in 30 (approx ) billion.

    This isn't about any "party". It's about every day lives. This is why I find your blasé attitude to this abhorrent. Its an absolute tragedy.

    The "party" should be over for those elites who started this. You and I know that it won't be.


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    #60
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    SantryRed wrote: »
    You can't get involved with all the sob stories.

    The IMF will come in and look at solely what is best (for this country and) to repay our debts to them. They won't be afraid to make cuts. They will want to get their money back, irrespective of the social or economic prospects for Ireland.


    FYP.

    Noreen


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    #61
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭ger664


    Having the IMF running our affairs is positive, the alternative of letting self serving politicians trying to fix it is far scarier.

    No one has mention public service pensions, these are going to get hammered as well and rightly so.


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