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Hijab, Niqab or Nothing interview
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28-12-2011 10:06pm#1A pretty interesting interview with three Muslim women about whether it's ok to wear nothing, just a hijab or the full face covering niqab.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzUuKdfnREComments
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Perhaps you can clarify for me: which is the best Islamic state and how should women dress, according to you?
If I ask wahabists they will say Saudi Arabia.
If I ask Shia they will say Iran.
If I ask Sunni..., well they are majority and in too many places to count.
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I have got no idea what you are trying prove. I have given you answer, how muslim woman look likePerhaps you can clarify for me: which is the best Islamic state and how should women dress, according to you?
... See my above post, I said, Summiah hussain, the woman in Hijab, is truly representing Islam in the video.
For best Islamic state, you're judging book by its cover. If you want to see islam, then see life of Prophet, his teaching and Quran. I mean, if all the muslims in the world, become hypocrites, then you should blame these muslims for their hypocrisy. That will be honesty on your part, on the other hand, You don't blames these states which aren't following Islam, but your attitude in this practice of ignorance is to blame Islam. These states don't represent Islam, in these states, few muslims are practicing muslim, Majority of Muslim in these states, and their actions don't represent islam, as they aren't following islam in their actions.
Muhammad was orphaned at an early age. He once remarked that, "Heaven lies at the feet of mothers." As the father of four daughters in a society that prized sons, he told other fathers that, if their daughters spoke well of them on the Day of Judgment, they would enter paradise."
You don't need ask anyone. Ask to your heart, it will guide you. Your heart will tell the truth, i can give you hint, i hope you wouldn't mind. See, truth is, there is prejudice in your heart against Islam, You've irrational fear of Muslims and you see all islam in prism of that fear but that isn't reality. The fear with which your heart is suffering, is result of hypocrisy of media. Media is brainwashing majority of people about Islam. They represent Islam as violent religion by giving out of context verses of Quran. See, the extremistrism with which the world is suffering, it isn't because of Islam, It is because of those who want to occupy muslim lands and their resources and in this whole plan they are using hyena tactics to malign Islam and muslims. The war which you see in the world, it's just will of few men and remember truth is always first causality of war. Be on the side of truth or history will forget you.If I ask wahabists they will say Saudi Arabia.
If I ask Shia they will say Iran.
If I ask Sunni..., well they are majority and in too many places to count.0 -
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See, Sonia Khan, She is muslim, but, she is inspired by western culture. Doesn't she look superficial, Like I said, she is looking like male member of society. A society where females look like males and males look like female. That is what they call ocean of shallowness. I hope you would understand, I am trying to tell you that when you say reason for hijab are shallow, you're right, that fault isn't with yourself, the fault is with society in which you've been brainwashed. You have taken superficiality thinking it as reality.
The first half of this paragraph is an ad hominem and the only reason I dont label the second half of this paragraph as an ad hominem is that its not clear what you are saying at all. Khan looks superficial? Just because you can see her hair? Doesn't that make you superficial, not her? And, not that she does, what difference would it make that she looks like a male?Your society has laws/rules, but the thoughts of members of this society follow no rules, I am talking about freedom of thoughts. Your thoughts observe no rules and that is dangerous to your society. As you'r seeing consequences of this in your society. "" Man is a thinking creature. Of necessity he forms opinions. If curbs are placed on the independent expression of his views, the content of his thought may remain unchanged, but his ideas will never find expression in his speech and writings. Islam promote freedom of thoughts by removing the curbs. Curbs, imposed by a community or a state, will ultimately produce a society of hypocrites. No sincere person can ever flourish in such a repressive atmosphere. It is only freedom of thought and expression which can save man from hypocrisy". You thoughts observe no rules, it means you've the curbs in your thoughts. This is one big contradiction. First you say that my society has rules, but my thoughts have none and that is dangerous to society. But then you say that islam removes "curbs" (rules?) from thoughts and creates full freedom of thought and expression and that this avoid hypocrites and is good. So you are saying that Islam is trying to produce a society like mine, with no thought rules, but its good when islam does it, but not when my society does it. Can you make up your mind.
Hijab is signal of respect to the desires of men. the moment a man looks at a woman with any brazen or unashamed thought in mind, he should lower his gaze. That is hijab is necessary for youth, who deson't know real status of women. What your youth has been doing in university and colleges, Ask to yourself Mark Hamil. The reason for this, the woman aren't of Summiah Hussain's kind, and they don't know about their real status.
Its hardly respect if it denies it. Can you not just educate youths to know the real status of women? Would it not be better for societies to encourage a social growth and maturity in men themselves, instead of expecting women to change themselves, to alter their own identity, to suit men?Ah i see, God's will isn't someone else's will. God knows what slaves human will. God knows what desires put slavery on human's will, that's why he has chosen special dress for female members of his creation.
You need to justify this more. How is gods will not someone else's will? Even if god was acting in our best interests and was completely right in his actions, it would still be his will that we are submitting to.No, it liberates them from your evil desires.
But they aren't liberated, they have to constantly alter their identity to hide a part of themselves from me. They must live their public lives according to my "evil" desires. The only way for them to be truly free would be to educate me to control my desires.I, in my above quote, have given you clear reason, when you say, the reason for hijab are shallow, Your comment don't have value in the eyes of justice, as you have take superficiality as reality.
But you havent explained why, you just assert that I haven't because my society is shallow. But what difference would that make? Hell, coming from a shallow society would enable me to recognise something else shallow easier than you, so I dont see the relevance.So on the other hand, Mooslems women are said to be forced into wearing a veil or , there is exceptionally any question of anyone else being forces into wearing whatever it is that they wear. And yet, if I appeared in work today with a T shirt that read I Am A Wage Slave, I would come up against with legally sanctioned disciplinary action from my employer, and many of those who say against Mooslem women wearing a burka, on account of its relational-ship with force, would say, that in fact I had freely chosen to destroy company rules and that therefore I could have n0 problem if I ended up on the d0le.
And clearly force into wearing particular cloths is by no means the sole manifestation of coercive power in everyday life. Capitalism requests all manner of forcible limits on people’s acti0ns -what they wear, what they say, how they work- on account of the fear of losing one’s livelihood, status and so on.
But the result of any acti0n that goes against these limits is widely represented as the symbol of freedom. More important though is the implicit belief that any action to refrain from contravening these forcible extent is also free choice. I am tend toward to say, therefore, that what ‘lurks undr those shr0uds’ is simply an argument for forcible power in its uropean capitalist shape, in which everyone is held to be where they are honestly on account of the free (market) choices they have made.
If this ‘right’ were to be somehow coerced, it would spell the end of telephones. And beards. And sunglasses.
As hard as it is to make out what your saying (and its really hard) it seems you are just saying that the west coerces people to wear some clothes, so islam should be able to do it to. How is that a defence?Let talk in usual way, all, Aren't these factors of coercion in your society
1. Prostitutes/Hooker/Pimps
2. Advertisement of women
3. Women in half naked dresses in the streets
4. Pornographic movies being sold online in chunks
No, at least certainly not in the same way that religion is coerced upon people. No-one participates in these activities or has these activities presented to them (I honestly cant tell which way you are looking at these, are you saying people are coerced into these activities, or that these activities are used to coerce others?) with the emotive or physical pressures that religion uses. Children aren't told from a young age to partake or obtain these things under threat of some illogical physical, or metaphysical, danger to their soul or identities.Why don't you write something on prostitution on the other hand you have problem with a piece of cloth.
Because it would be irrelevant to the point I'm making here. Id doesn't matter about any other society and how shallow they may be, the hijab/niqab is an incredibly shallow way to look at a womans presence, identity and contribution to society0 -
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The woman I admire most in Islam is HM Queen Rania of Jordan.
She discusses the veil at 2.30
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not because of her hairs, because of her cutting, the way she talk. During her first or second response, we find, her color changes, because she doesn't know how to answer a thing which she doesn't know and she tries to generalize thing by taking help of lies. Isn't it shallowness. Tell if i am wrong.Mark Hamill wrote: »Khan looks superficial? Just because you can see her hair? Doesn't that make you superficial, not her? And, not that she does, what difference would it make that she looks like a male?
See that's not contradiction, What is purpose of traffic signals on the roads, that is to control traffic. Similarly Islam put signals upon thought, where thoughts follow no rules/signals that is very dangerous for that society. Do you not see your thought following no rules/signals and where your society is going. It is very common to put sex scenes in majority of westren movies. Why what is purpose those scene, Don't get me wrong it's just an example. Do you not feel shame by seeing those scene or you get pleasured. This is how islam cleans the soul of a person by putting signals on thought. I hope you would get my point.Mark Hamill wrote: » This is one big contradiction. First you say that my society has rules, but my thoughts have none and that is dangerous to society. But then you say that islam removes "curbs" (rules?) from thoughts and creates full freedom of thought and expression and that this avoid hypocrites and is good. So you are saying that Islam is trying to produce a society like mine, with no thought rules, but its good when islam does it, but not when my society does it. Can you make up your mind.
This identity is given to women by God, even modern men, who wish open and naked women for their business, can't change this identity. This is how Islam preserve dignity and honor of women in a society. This identity doesn't suit any man, because, you'r a man and you know how you fill hunger of your desires.Mark Hamill wrote: »Its hardly respect if it denies it. Can you not just educate youths to know the real status of women? Would it not be better for societies to encourage a social growth and maturity in men themselves, instead of expecting women to change themselves, to alter their own identity, to suit men?
He is our creator. He created us with his will and he wants us to live a pious life. A life with full of piousness. He wants to liberate us from evil desires which corrupt human soul. The freedom lies in the path of faithfulness not faithlessness.Mark Hamill wrote: »You need to justify this more. How is gods will not someone else's will? Even if god was acting in our best interests and was completely right in his actions, it would still be his will that we are submitting to.
See, they are liberated from evil desires which enslaves their will, which corrupts their ego, You'r measuring freedom in term of materialism. That isn't freedom, Freedom is name of control, If you controls yourself against all the evil then you're free, If you control your movies against sex scenes then that is freedom in your media. Freedom is to resist pleasure not to enslave to them. It's very hard to make you understand simple things because you'r take mirage's beauty thinking it as nest.Mark Hamill wrote: »But they aren't liberated, they have to constantly alter their identity to hide a part of themselves from me. They must live their public lives according to my "evil" desires. The only way for them to be truly free would be to educate me to control my desires.
See, simple, don't get me wrong, if you're corrupt then it isn't easy to exactly pin point corruption. Corruption increases with passage of times. You don't know you're shallow inside or you're society is shallow. It's i who is telling you that your society look shallow, and i feel ocean of shallowness in your society.Mark Hamill wrote: »But you havent explained why, you just assert that I haven't because my society is shallow. But what difference would that make? Hell, coming from a shallow society would enable me to recognise something else shallow easier than you, so I dont see the relevance.
So how is that not a defense, coercion is good if used by westren and not good by if used eastern/Muslims. I smell hypocrisy.Mark Hamill wrote: »As hard as it is to make out what your saying (and its really hard) it seems you are just saying that the west coerces people to wear some clothes, so islam should be able to do it to. How is that a defence?0 -
The woman I admire most in Islam is HM Queen Rania of Jordan.
She discusses the veil at 2.30
Biko, that's her personal view, She doesn't choose hijab. But her choice has got nothing to with Islam. Did she say, she was representing Islam in her choice. Islam is quran and way of Prophet, If she is not following then no one is forcing her to follow islam. It is also clear that women in islam aren't coerced. If they were coerced, then you would see Queen Rania in Hijab.QUEEN RANIA wrote:Absolutely, you know, very often. But likewise, there are many women like me who do not wear the veil. So, as long as it's a choice.
I have nothing against the veil. And I think that wrongly, many in the West look at the veil as a symbol of oppression.
Now, as long as a woman chooses to wear the veil, because that's her belief and because of her own -- that's a personal relationship with God, so she should be free to dress in whichever way she wants.
And we should be smarter than to apply more meaning to a symbol of clothing than we should, because, you know, all over the world there are many symbols of dress and many ways of prayer, et cetera. We shouldn't judge people through the prism of our own stereotypes.
And I think there has been a stereotype that has developed over -- in the Western world of a women -- a veil means oppression, you know. That is not necessarily the case.
And unfortunately, these stereotypes have been very dangerous between East and West. And we really need to start challenging them, because, you know, they really rob us of accurate perspective.0 -
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of the 3.5 billon women on earth, all have honor and dignity in their minds, i am saying again, of these 3.5 billion women, no good women will advertise her body part that she might get attraction of men. Isn't it corruption of intent. See, majority of western or eastern women do makeup, they do all this makeup to cheat public. I mean, majority of women do makeup or advertise to good look. See for example, i like a girl in her makeup or in her artificial dress, but when i come to know that she isn't beautiful in her real status, i get disappointed. I hope you would get this point. Isn't it cheating public by hiding your real face..... on the other hand, in hijab, you look what you're in reality. No cheating, no attraction/cheating of men. This is how, Islam creates a shallow free society. Now, hope you would understand the reason for hijab aren't shallow. Isn't it what they call wishful thinking. In westren, freedom is totally material. Freedom is concept which based on one's wished.
:eek: I'm sorry, you think that hijab is what women look like in reality? If that was true, then there would be no need to explicitly detail what hijab was, as women, in reality, would already adhere to it.
Besides that, you are still showing the shallowness of hijab. You are still presenting it as the only way for women to really show their physical appearance, free of make up (as if burka wearing women dont wear make up) and that women cant misrepresent themselves without make up. For instance, why do you think that women cant cheat or lie if their face can't be seen? Presumably muslim men must still strike up relationships with burka wearing women and eventually get married and have children, so it seems that attraction is still their without physical appearance. Do you think that a woman can't act differently if she is wearing the burka?See, what is freedom, if you're freed from all kind of corruption. Isn't it freedom. See, if every man, in a society, is not corrupt. isn't it freedom?. Islam puts some restriction upon thought. What is purpose of those restrictions, to free society from all kinds of corruption. You create traffic signal on the roads, Is purpose of signals to slave traffic. So what freedom are you talking about. Can you please explain. Are you saying, if some men hire few women for growth of their business, Is that freedom. Or woman, with open dresses, who corrupt imagination of youth, Is that freedom. Please explain to me, what do you mean by freedom.
Being allowed and able to do what you want is freedom. Now, I know that people can't have absolute freedom. I recognise that inevitably one mans freedom will infringe on someone else, so, at best, what you are looking for is a system which maximises freedom but which does not aim to give absolute freedom, as that would not work. This is only a problem to those who blindly assert that their system is one of freedom when what they want to say is that their system is the one with the most harmony.See, the bold font, the societies who are willing to dominate the world by getting resources from muslim world, In order to fill hunger of their dominance, they come with new hyena tactics. you know Iran and American were very Good partner before the Iranian revolution. But why everything changed after the revolution. The revolution revealed true status American and their imperialistic plan with their democratic values. Are you getting me. It was all about Oil. As long as American were getting Oil, they remain good with iranian, but when oil supply of oil stopped they became enemy of Iran and what about Iran and Iraq, who created disturbance in the world, It was American and their hyena tactics and now you are seeing a big riddle on the screen. 9-11. Again the american and the hunger of oil. Now they have cheated their own people, I mean, american fed hunger of oil at the corpses of their own people. It's a dirty politics even it is more dirty what you're saying in this case.
I hope one day you would find the truth. What has this got to do with my point? Islamic society had long since moved away from fundamentalist interpretations of the koran by the time the 70s came along It was fundamentalist parties that used traditionalist and patriotic values as their driving point to remove the US influence from their countries that brought it back (its a pretty common tactic, use traditionalism and notions that "X is true Islam and true "insert countries name here"" in order to make your country men think you are taking power from foreigner invaders when, in effect, you are just taking power from your country men)
God is a different entity when you read God from different minds. And? This just makes me right.
again, what do you mean by freedom. If your innerself is freed from all of kind of corruption, Isn't it freedom. If you're free from greed, lust, envy, bigotry and all kind of other deep rooted corruptions. Isn't it freedom....or you're saying a person, who can't stop himself from visiting strips club, is a free person. Is that freedom are taking about. don't get me wrong it's just an example. What do you mean by freedom....
As I have said before, hijab doesn't make you free of any of those things you mention, in fact you are so much enslaved to them, that it can be physically seen - in the rigid, identity devouring clothes that women are made wear.See, i am using again the same example, Isn't artificiality cheating. The women like sonia khan cheat other by representing themselves in extraordinary manner. You know what i am talking about. Suppose i am ugly, i look ugly and i use makeup inoder to become beautiful. Isn't it cheating. For me beauty doesn't lie in makeup/cheating. It's lies in character of a woman/man.... You're measuring beauty in material terms.... I am measuring beauty for sake of humanity. A woman who isn't cheating humanity with her real face is beautiful, on the other hand, a woman, who is cheating humanity with her superficiality, is spot on face humanity.
Please answer me, Isn't it cheating
And why is the burka an answer to that, even if it were true? Why not just have women not wear any make-up if you are so afraid of artificiality? And what about artificiality in terms of personality? Is that not cheating too? This is just avoiding my point. Some woman's "artificiality" might entice a man to act in some way he otherwise wouldn't, but that's his fault and his problem, not hers.0 -
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I am talking about hijab, i don't know any goddamn burka... hijab is proper dress... for example see below angel on earth...Mark Hamill wrote: »:eek: I'm sorry, you think that hijab is what women look like in reality? If that was true, then there would be no need to explicitly detail what hijab was, as women, in reality, would already adhere to it.
Right tell how this woman is cheating other... She is an angel or earth, she knows about herself, She knows how to protect her husband and family.... She will give her life for her dignity and honor... You'can't hire this angel for dirty polictics.... You can't make this angel as girlfriend.... This is no element of showing off her in dressing... You can't hire this angel to advertise her part for some dirty business or sex scence in media....... This is reality, mark hamil.... I have got no idea why would a genius like you want to escape from reality...
now i tell you cheating and shallowness...
You see this is cheating, she is cheating other people by making her look artificial.. This is shallowness... You can hire her for strip club... You can make her girlfriend... You can do whatever you want with.... Why??? because she doesn't know who is she...... She doesn't know what is status in her society...
See, we aren't talking about action/character of a woman... We are talking about her physical appearance.... Is she cheating in her physical appearance or not.... A woman can cheat or lie even by wearing hijab but it doesn't change fact that she isn't cheating in her physical appearance.. A women in makeup can cheat or lie but it doesn't change the fact that she has already been cheating in her artificial appearance.... For example, suppose a woman is speaking truth by wearing a transparent dress, who would believe her?... on the other hand, she is clearly cheating the desires of public with her artificial dress.. i hope you would get the point...Mark Hamill wrote: »Besides that, you are still showing the shallowness of hijab. You are still presenting it as the only way for women to really show their physical appearance, free of make up (as if burka wearing women dont wear make up) and that women cant misrepresent themselves without make up. For instance, why do you think that women cant cheat or lie if their face can't be seen? Presumably muslim men must still strike up relationships with burka wearing women and eventually get married and have children, so it seems that attraction is still their without physical appearance. Do you think that a woman can't act differently if she is wearing the burka?
See, Islam is a universal religion... It isn't property of my father..... You're right when you said a system which maximises freedom... Islam maximieses freedom... for example...."The main difference between the Islamic and Western views concerning women is that one is norm based and the other that claims to be value-free. The Islamic view offers a model for women to follow which is intended to be universal and normative in its impact. It takes a stand on many aspects of the life of the individual and the community. While women are free to struggle with how they will incorporate these values into their lives and their life styles, general definitions are clearly available as to what constitutes right and wrong and justice from injustice. The Islamic sources outline general principles and guidelines while it is up to the individual to apply these and give them meaning. The Western perspective strongly resists any agreed upon general principles or guidelines for women. It does not see a universal condition affirming model for the life of women. Making any statements about what a women's life should be like is considered as not leaving her free to make up her own mind according to her own conscience with or without reference to any outside source. This very essential difference may become clear when we consider each paradigm's views of society."Mark Hamill wrote: »Being allowed and able to do what you want is freedom. Now, I know that people can't have absolute freedom. I recognise that inevitably one mans freedom will infringe on someone else, so, at best, what you are looking for is a system which maximises freedom but which does not aim to give absolute freedom, as that would not work. This is only a problem to those who blindly assert that their system is one of freedom when what they want to say is that their system is the one with the most harmony.
I agree with you some extent some people use Islam in their politics to control common folks but five fingers aren't equal.....Mark Hamill wrote: » What has this got to do with my point? Islamic society had long since moved away from fundamentalist interpretations of the koran by the time the 70s came along It was fundamentalist parties that used traditionalist and patriotic values as their driving point to remove the US influence from their countries that brought it back (its a pretty common tactic, use traditionalism and notions that "X is true Islam and true "insert countries name here"" in order to make your country men think you are taking power from foreigner invaders when, in effect, you are just taking power from your country men)
No, that doesn't make you right, Do you know about Islamic concept of toheed, if you understand toheed, you will find answer for your answer...Moslems believes in toheed whichisn't merely monotheism i.e. belief in one God, but much more.Mark Hamill wrote: » And? This just makes me right.
offcourse, hijab makes you free of all those thing in a society in long term.... i am using again in long term. It is only cure to the evil of society... if it isn't then give me alternative...Mark Hamill wrote: »As I have said before, hijab doesn't make you free of any of those things you mention, in fact you are so much enslaved to them, that it can be physically seen - in the rigid, identity devouring clothes that women are made wear.
i have given you detail answer above.. I don't know anything about burka, we are talking about hijab... It doesn't make women look artificial... There is no attraction in hijab.... When you use artificial mean to make yourself look natural that is artificial and cheating and shallowness.... Mark Hamil, honestly you've no point to resist... or prove me wrong!!!Mark Hamill wrote: »And why is the burka an answer to that, even if it were true? Why not just have women not wear any make-up if you are so afraid of artificiality? And what about artificiality in terms of personality? Is that not cheating too? This is just avoiding my point. Some woman's "artificiality" might entice a man to act in some way he otherwise wouldn't, but that's his fault and his problem, not hers.0 -
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