Do IE not want people to use Docklands?

n97 mini · 20-07-2013 10:03pm #1

I was attending a conference during the day recently in the Convention Centre and Docklands station is right behind it. Living in Leixlip I thought train to Clonsilla and swap onto the Docklands train there. In theory it's especially attractive as the train runs non stop from Clonsilla to Docklands.

Except trains are not timed to connect and there are horrendous waiting times in Clonsilla. The train I was planning on getting was the 14:50 until I saw there is a 55 minute wait for the next Docklands train. While the picture isn't as bad for all the other trains, the waiting time is typically 25 minutes, which makes it unusable. These waiting times are there for all trains from Maynooth/Leixlip.

Out of curiosity I looked at the timetabling for Coolmine and Castleknock to see if customers could get connections at Clonsilla. In the morning rush several trains stop at those stations, but from 9:21 to 18:21 there is no way to get to Docklands via Clonsilla in reasonable time.

I really have to question the wisdom of running a train service that only serves Docklands from the M3 Parkway branch where the restriction in purely timetabling.

Peppa Pig · 20-07-2013 10:11pm

Would you not go Leixlip to Connolly and get the Luas to Docklands?

n97 mini · 20-07-2013 10:24pm

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Would you not go Leixlip to Connolly and get the Luas to Docklands?

I did. But
1. It's more expensive, as it's train+Luas.
2. Journey time is similar, but the waiting is sitting on the train rather than sitting on the platform in Clonsilla.

But that's not the point. The point is why timetable Docklands services to be unusable by everyone except the M3PW branch.

Hilly Bill · 20-07-2013 10:32pm

Docklands is only open at the peak times. You can walk to the conference centre just as quick from Connolly. I would find it strange if someone got off in Clonsilla and wait 55 mins instead of staying on the train to Connolly and walk round the corner.

n97 mini · 20-07-2013 10:56pm

Docklands is open all day long, but is timetabled so that it's not usable by most people on the Maynooth line.

TheBandicoot · 20-07-2013 11:17pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Docklands is open all day long, but is timetabled so that it's not usable by most people on the Maynooth line.

No it's not. Peak times only. It's true that the evening services in the reverse direction(into Docklands) are not timetabled to connect with anything, they more or less turn around immediately at M3 Parkway and run express back in to town to operate as high a frequency service as possible with just two train sets. I jus don't think there is the demand for people to get to Docklands expect for the peaks when trains are full of office workers. Remember that they used to have full services all day to and from Docklands and they ran almost completely empty. The demand is just not there for the kind of trip you were making, so instead the timetable is centered around getting office workers out of Docklands in the evening as efficiently as possible. As has been said, there is a good alternative in Connolly+Luas.
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Peppa Pig · 20-07-2013 11:29pm

There are five trains from Leixlip to Docklands between 7am and 9am which take about 40 minutes total travelling time going to Clonsilla and changing trains. Presumably this is fine for the majority of people going to work.
There are loads of trains to Connolly taking half an hour, all day. That 14:50 train is an anomaly but it is the only one with a ridiculous waiting time.

n97 mini · 20-07-2013 11:40pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

It's true that the evening services in the reverse direction(into Docklands) are not timetabled to connect with anything,

My point exactly, and it makes no sense. If the train is running, why not schedule it so people can actually use it.

TheBandicoot · 20-07-2013 11:55pm

n97 mini wrote: »

My point exactly, and it makes no sense. If the train is running, why not schedule it so people can actually use it.

I guess, but like I say the goal is to have a half hourly service from Docklands using two train sets, which necessitates a maximum ~1 hour round trip time. That can only really be achieved by having immediate turnaround at M3 Parkway and running express back to Docklands. Those movements stop at the branch stations so that they can drop passengers at Clonsilla, where such passengers can then connect with the more in-demand trains towards Connolly. I don't think it's expected that anyone stays on after Clonsilla. I've done it a couple of times and it was just me and the driver.

Reworking the Maynooth "mainline" trains to arrive before the express Docklands trains(thus allowing the kind of connection you needed) could be done, but then you have knock on effects on departure times for those trains operating the much busier trains out of the city centre. You also destroy the connection for branch passengers to get into Connolly.

IE have just made a decision that in the evening peak, there is virtually no demand for anyone to get to Docklands, and that there is more demand for people to get to Connolly, and have set up the connections with that in mind. I think that's a realistic decision and the Docklands services are one of the best run in IE, being well patronised and operated with an appropriate level of resource.

tl;dr you can only either schedule the train to allow Maynooth/Leixlip passengers to transfer to it and head to Docklands, or to allow M3 branch passengers to transfer to Connolly-bound trains. IE has chosen the latter.

n97 mini · 21-07-2013 12:02am

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I guess, but like I say the goal is to have a half hourly service from Docklands using two train sets,

And that's the flaw. The first priority should be to get paying customers.

TheBandicoot · 21-07-2013 12:06am

n97 mini wrote: »

And that's the flaw. The first priority should be to get paying customers.

And that's what a half hourly service from Docklands does, and does very well.

Given infinite resources you could have an extra through platform at Clonsilla and the resulting crossplatform interchange would allow for both use cases to be served. Given infinite resources there would be 5 minute interval services which make all connections much easier. But IE does not have infinite resources, so it has to make decisions to get the maximum number of paying customers from the resources it does have. Quite often it gets that wrong, but I don't think that's the case here, sorry.

LXFlyer · 21-07-2013 1:18pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I was attending a conference during the day recently in the Convention Centre and Docklands station is right behind it. Living in Leixlip I thought train to Clonsilla and swap onto the Docklands train there. In theory it's especially attractive as the train runs non stop from Clonsilla to Docklands.

Except trains are not timed to connect and there are horrendous waiting times in Clonsilla. The train I was planning on getting was the 14:50 until I saw there is a 55 minute wait for the next Docklands train. While the picture isn't as bad for all the other trains, the waiting time is typically 25 minutes, which makes it unusable. These waiting times are there for all trains from Maynooth/Leixlip.

Out of curiosity I looked at the timetabling for Coolmine and Castleknock to see if customers could get connections at Clonsilla. In the morning rush several trains stop at those stations, but from 9:21 to 18:21 there is no way to get to Docklands via Clonsilla in reasonable time.

I really have to question the wisdom of running a train service that only serves Docklands from the M3 Parkway branch where the restriction in purely timetabling.

Docklands Station was built to facilitate the operation of trains to/from M3 Parkway as there was insufficient capacity to operate them to/from Connolly.

The trains are timetabled to offer customers from/to stations on the M3 branch the option of changing at Clonsilla onto/from trains operating to/from Pearse (which are operating to/from Maynooth), which is what the peak flow would be.

The one example you quoted is the only service that has that kind of wait time at Clonsilla as it is at the time of the hourly off-peak service during the day when the M3 line is served by the off-peak shuttle to/from Clonsilla.

To achieve connections at Clonsilla from M3 to Connolly and from Maynooth to Docklands would require additional trains to operate and frankly the marginal costs would far exceed any marginal revenue - as others point out you can walk from Connolly to the Convention Centre in less than 10 minutes.

The current set up favours the peak traffic flows.

dowlingm · 22-07-2013 2:21am

Under the original Planning Permission, wasn't Docklands supposed to be demolished by now? That an extension had to be got because IE couldn't get DASH2 (and thereby additional Connolly slots) until 2015?

Do IE not want people to use Docklands?

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