Is the educational system rigged ?

espinolman · 05-04-2009 9:29pm #1

Well i have always thought so , its rigged so only the elite win . The way it is done they make sure there are no definitions to words in the textbooks , and the teachers never tell the students to look up the definition of a word they do not understand , also they make sure there are no dictionaries' in the school , now you see the students with wealthy parents' they get a private tutor who tell them what certain words mean and clear up anything they don't understand , so these elite students' understand what the teachers' are talking about , the rest of the students' don't understand and they have no way of finding out , so they don't get as good results in their exams , now this is the way it was when i went to school . I do tell people i know who are younger than me about this and a lot do tend to agree with me that the education system is rigged in the way i have described above , so i don't know but is this still going on today in our schools' here in Ireland ?
Let me know what you think of this conspiracy theory , that our educaton system is rigged so only the elite can win .

King Mob · 05-04-2009 9:54pm

Jesus what school did you go to?
My english teacher always told us to look up words we didn't understand and we were all required to have English dictionaries.
You also know that anyone can hire a private tutor right?

6th · 05-04-2009 10:00pm

espinolman wrote: »

Well i have always thought so , its rigged so only the elite win . The way it is done they make sure there are no definitions to words in the textbooks , and the teachers never tell the students to look up the definition of a word they do not understand , also they make sure there are no dictionaries' in the school , now you see the students with wealthy parents' they get a private tutor who tell them what certain words mean and clear up anything they don't understand , so these elite students' understand what the teachers' are talking about , the rest of the students' don't understand and they have no way of finding out , so they don't get as good results in their exams , now this is the way it was when i went to school . I do tell people i know who are younger than me about this and a lot do tend to agree with me that the education system is rigged in the way i have described above , so i don't know but is this still going on today in our schools' here in Ireland ?
Let me know what you think of this conspiracy theory , that our educaton system is rigged so only the elite can win .

Did you come to that based on anything other than you're own experiences in school?

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 10:03pm

King Mob wrote: »

Jesus what school did you go to?
My english teacher always told us to look up words we didn't understand and we were all required to have English dictionaries.
You also know that anyone can hire a private tutor right?

Ditto. And I went to a community school.

This conspiracy is BUSTED.

espinolman · 05-04-2009 10:05pm

King Mob wrote: »

My english teacher always told us to look up words we didn't understand and we were all required to have English dictionaries.

Really , you had a teacher that told you to look up words , and not only that but had english dictionaries' , that sounds great , you were very lucky i think.

King Mob wrote: »

You also know that anyone can hire a private tutor right?

If they have the money .

King Mob · 05-04-2009 10:08pm

espinolman wrote: »

Really , you had a teacher that told you to look up words , and not only that but had english dictionaries' , that sounds great , you were very lucky i think.

And what was stopping you buying a dictionary? Or asking your parents?
Honestly I find it hard to believe that any school has this practice institutionalised.

espinolman wrote: »

If they have the money .

Yes, and?

6th · 05-04-2009 10:08pm

I also went to a community ... in Tallaght ... and even WE had dictionaries!

King Mob · 05-04-2009 10:08pm

6th wrote: »

I also went to a community ... in Tallaght ... and even WE had dictionaries!

You have my condolences.

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 10:09pm

6th wrote: »

I also went to a community ... in Tallaght ... and even WE had dictionaries!

I guess we were 'lucky' too...

espinolman · 05-04-2009 10:10pm

6th wrote: »

Did you come to that based on anything other than you're own experiences in school?

I was talking to a friend of mine that went to a different school , in dublin about this and he agreed with me , so well seems this is something that needs to be discussed to me , and that is why i have started this thread .

espinolman · 05-04-2009 10:20pm

King Mob wrote: »

And what was stopping you buying a dictionary?

You know teenagers would not necessarily know that their problem was not understanding the meanings of words , they might think they are stupid because their teacher tells them that they are a stupid twit and then punch them in the head ( although i know the teachers' don't do that any more) .

King Mob · 05-04-2009 10:27pm

espinolman wrote: »

You know teenagers would not necessarily know that their problem was not understanding the meanings of words , they might think they are stupid because their teacher tells them that they are a stupid twit and then punch them in the head ( although i know the teachers' don't do that any more) .

You think maybe you went to a **** school? A bit more likely than some vast conspiracy.

When abouts did you go to school?

espinolman · 05-04-2009 10:45pm

King Mob wrote: »

You think maybe you went to a **** school? A bit more likely than some vast conspiracy.

When abouts did you go to school?

I'd prefer not to say , it would give away my identity , but this thread is not about me , its more to explore this CT by what other posters' think and answers to the original post will give a rough indication of wheater the educational system is rigged or not .

meglome · 05-04-2009 10:53pm

My school in the northside of Dublin in the 80's was fine too and hardly anyone had any money. A lot of people went places.

Fiona500 · 06-04-2009 12:57am

What textbooks were you using? Every school book that I have ever used had a glossary in the back.

nyarlothothep · 06-04-2009 1:20am

It's difficult to get into the ivy league colleges without connections, even if you do have a lot of money. Yes there is elitism in the education system and there is certainly indoctrination (religious here) but there's no conspiracy in it as its out in the open for anyone to see.

Purple Gorilla · 06-04-2009 1:33am

espinolman wrote: »

I'd prefer not to say , it would give away my identity , but this thread is not about me , its more to explore this CT by what other posters' think and answers to the original post will give a rough indication of wheater the educational system is rigged or not .

Salman?

TBH I think you're looking for a conspiracy that just isn't there. I'm in secondary school right now and literally none of that happens or has happened. And you make it sound like private tutors cost like €200 a lesson... I got a tutor for honours maths for my Junior Cert last year, €20 a week and he helped bring my F in the mocks up to a B

meglome · 06-04-2009 1:52am

espinolman wrote: »

I'd prefer not to say , it would give away my identity , but this thread is not about me , its more to explore this CT by what other posters' think and answers to the original post will give a rough indication of wheater the educational system is rigged or not .

Okay...

Firstly the internet isn't anonymous so if for some reason (and I can't imagine why) someone really wanted to track you down they could.

Secondly why on earth would it matter if we could tell who you were? (See first point.)

So far everyone's experiences in school appear to be different to yours so maybe you should give us more info as to where and when you went to school. Assuming you do want to discuss this.

6th · 06-04-2009 9:38am

So so far we have 1 person saying the schools are consciously keeping us down, 7 saying schools are helpful and fine.

And 1 person addressed the issue of elitism in colleges which would be a CT if it wasnt for the fact it was so obvious and there for everyone to see.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 10:10am

nyarlothothep wrote: »

It's difficult to get into the ivy league colleges without connections, even if you do have a lot of money. Yes there is elitism in the education system and there is certainly indoctrination (religious here) but there's no conspiracy in it as its out in the open for anyone to see.

What have Ivy League colleges got to do with the Irish education system?

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 10:12am

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

I got a tutor for honours maths for my Junior Cert last year, €20 a week and he helped bring my F in the mocks up to a B

I know yeah. You swear you were getting a Nobel Prize winner to tutor you, as opposed to the reality of some undergrad/postgrad student trying to earn an extra few quid a week.

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 1:45pm

Again hand up here, Christian Bros school, did not come from a wealthy background.

I'm sure other people here can remember their school days, and keeping them in good condition all the year round, and selling them on 2nd hand at the end of the year. There used to a bookshop in Dundrum that specialised in selling 2nd hand school books, it's where I got school books. I had three dictionaries, English, Irish/English, and German/English.

Es this is a crazy conspiracy, dictionaries, new, cost less than five euro.

6th · 06-04-2009 1:58pm

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Anyone remember Salman?

I'm convinced this guy is Salman...the guy a while back on boards who cheated in the LC and posted about it and then everyone rang joe duffy and reported him and we all lived happily ever after

PG, read the charter ... specifically the bit I've quoted below.

• Respect other posters
Snide remarks and bitching will not be tolerated, nor will accusations thrown at other members of the Boards.ie community. Singling out a poster or posters, including stating things like "some posters on here" could land you in trouble.

I'm deleting posts now. Next comes infractions.

toiletduck · 06-04-2009 3:20pm

espinolman wrote: »

also they make sure there are no dictionaries' in the school

First thing we were told do in our first English class in secondary school was to get a decent (i.e. not one of the little pocket ones) dictionary. A Brothers school. This was in '97. I really have never heard of anything along the lines you're describing.

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 3:41pm

So yes I think we can safely say that the education system is like life, rigged. The stupider you are, the harder they are.

Kernel · 06-04-2009 4:02pm

Diogenes wrote: »

So yes I think we can safely say that the education system is like life, rigged. The stupider you are, the harder they are.

Nonsense, there's plenty of dumb ****s who eventually got through private colleges thanks to Daddy's income and contacts. Capitalism controls everything, and guess what, it's an unfair system.

meglome · 06-04-2009 4:07pm

Kernel wrote: »

Nonsense, there's plenty of dumb ****s who eventually got through private colleges thanks to Daddy's income and contacts. Capitalism controls everything, and guess what, it's an unfair system.

Is that just cuase you say so? I don't remember there ever being a case like this in Ireland. And please don't say we just haven't found out yet, either you can show it to be happening or you can't. And if you can't it's just your opinion.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 4:13pm

Kernel wrote: »

Nonsense, there's plenty of dumb ****s who eventually got through private colleges thanks to Daddy's income and contacts. Capitalism controls everything, and guess what, it's an unfair system.

So is socialism.

What can you do, eh?

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 4:20pm

Kernel wrote: »

Nonsense, there's plenty of dumb ****s who eventually got through private colleges thanks to Daddy's income and contacts.

And there's plenty of people who started out with nothing, or next to nothing, and through hard work, study, and discipline have risen to the top of their fields, be it business, medicine, law, politics, whatever.

Capitalism controls everything,

And your flawless alternative system which will justly and wisely is called....

Ssssh ssssh, quick someone write this down, Kernel's going to explain how we bring about a Utopian Meritocracy.

and guess what, it's an unfair system.

Life is unfair. Nature is unfair. Deal.

nyarlothothep · 06-04-2009 4:59pm

Diogenes wrote: »

And there's plenty of people who started out with nothing, or next to nothing, and through hard work, study, and discipline have risen to the top of their fields, be it business, medicine, law, politics, whatever.

And your flawless alternative system which will justly and wisely is called....

Ssssh ssssh, quick someone write this down, Kernel's going to explain how we bring about a Utopian Meritocracy.

Life is unfair. Nature is unfair. Deal.

Problem with this argument, life is unfair does not equate to tolerating injustice. Deal in this case means accept the way things are. You can see this type of logic being used for many things, and if you like could be invoked for systems like feudalism, fascism etc, but in the end its just a tautological justification relying on a distorted and overly simplified generalization of the natural world, and then applying it to an evolution in nature, namely the human race, for the way things are.

If there are problems with a system then they must be fixed, not accepted. If anything the trend in human history towards increased equality and civility (if you compare and contrast the present with the barbarism of earlier generations) showcases that as a species we demand greater fairness as an inherent property of our nature.

Kernel · 06-04-2009 5:23pm

meglome wrote: »

Is that just cuase you say so? I don't remember there ever being a case like this in Ireland. And please don't say we just haven't found out yet, either you can show it to be happening or you can't. And if you can't it's just your opinion.

No, I've met quite a few. In surprisingly high circles. Ah but that's just an anecdote eh?

Flamed Diving wrote: »

So is socialism.

What can you do, eh?

Yeah I used to be a fan of socialism, but don't believe in that either. As for what we can do, exactly what Nyarlothothep said.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 5:33pm

Kernel wrote: »

Yeah I used to be a fan of socialism, but don't believe in that either. As for what we can do, exactly what Nyarlothothep said.

He didn't really say anything, tbh. Lots of nice statements but no solutions. In my view, inequity is the same as always, we simply globalised the nature of it.

(For the record, I'm not an anti-globalist)

Kernel · 06-04-2009 5:41pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

He didn't really say anything, tbh. Lots of nice statements but no solutions. In my view, inequity is the same as always, we simply globalised the nature of it.

(For the record, I'm not an anti-globalist)

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 5:44pm

Kernel wrote: »

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

Undergod · 06-04-2009 5:51pm

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

Relevant.

Time Magazine · 06-04-2009 5:56pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

It's difficult to get into the ivy league colleges without connections, even if you do have a lot of money.

For what it's worth, as someone without a lot or money or connections, I'm noticing that it is easier to gain admission to and continue through a Ph.D. programme in the States than it is here. Even if you're an Irish citizen.

meglome · 06-04-2009 6:48pm

Kernel wrote: »

No, I've met quite a few. In surprisingly high circles. Ah but that's just an anecdote eh?

Well I've never met anyone who said this nor have I heard of it from anyone other than you. Does this mean I don't think cheat, well no. I'm pretty confident people cheat but I don't assume that only wealthy people cheat. I think you give wealthy people too little credit and poor people too much.

And yes that's just an anecdote.

espinolman · 06-04-2009 7:31pm

toiletduck wrote: »

First thing we were told do in our first English class in secondary school was to get a decent (i.e. not one of the little pocket ones) dictionary. A Brothers school. This was in '97. I really have never heard of anything along the lines you're describing.

You know there used to be hedge schools in this country , people used to get educated in secret and if they got caught they were in serious trouble .

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 7:35pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Problem with this argument, life is unfair does not equate to tolerating injustice.

There is injustice, and there is injustice, there is no such thing as flawless system.

Deal in this case means accept the way things are. You can see this type of logic being used for many things, and if you like could be invoked for systems like feudalism, fascism etc, but in the end its just a tautological justification relying on a distorted and overly simplified generalization of the natural world, and then applying it to an evolution in nature, namely the human race, for the way things are.

If there are problems with a system then they must be fixed, not accepted.

Again there is no such as a perfect system. Minor corruption, wealthy buying power, and infulence, certain people with natural advantgeous rights.

If anything the trend in human history towards increased equality and civility (if you compare and contrast the present with the barbarism of earlier generations) showcases that as a species we demand greater fairness as an inherent property of our nature.

Agreed but if you there is a possibility that there is such a thing as a flawless perfect system, you've been watching too much star trek.

toiletduck · 06-04-2009 7:41pm

espinolman wrote: »

You know there used to be hedge schools in this country , people used to get educated in secret and if they got caught they were in serious trouble .

Yes and the relevance to my post is....?

espinolman · 06-04-2009 8:33pm

toiletduck wrote: »

Yes and the relevance to my post is....?

Well now , do you think there is'nt still hedge schools today in Ireland ?

toiletduck · 06-04-2009 8:51pm

espinolman wrote: »

Well now , do you think there is'nt still hedge schools today in Ireland ?

None in my experience described in your first post. You made specific claims which seem indicative of a poor education rather than an all out conspiracy (your experience seems to be definitely a minority experience given others responses here).

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 8:55pm

Kernel wrote: »

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

If you ignore the fact that major projects like the autobahns were built using slave labour. Or that the economic miracle of the Nazi's during the 30s was build on massive government expenditure on the military, and business supplying the miltary, which meant it was destined to go to war to capture resources to fund this military expansion. Oh and that it was a top heavy burearcy with rampent corruption, the personal fortunes of Jews fleeing the 3rd Reich gave leading Nazis plundered fortunes, as well for f's sake they gave Hitler a gold plated elevator to his private retreat in 1939.

As to the benevolent dictatorship, well I suppose it was, unless you were Gay. Gay, or Jewish, or a tradeunionist, or a gypsy, or mentally handicapped.

The concept of a benevolent dictatorship is an oxymoron. When power is isolated among a few unelected officials corruption seeps in. I'm staggered how anyone who has even cast a cursory glance at nazi history doesn't understand that cronyism, political corruption, seizing of wealth for personal gain were at the core of the nazi idelogy. Everything else was window dressing.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 9:21pm

Diogenes wrote: »

If you ignore the fact that major projects like the autobahns were built using slave labour. Or that the economic miracle of the Nazi's during the 30s was build on massive government expenditure on the military, and business supplying the miltary, which meant it was destined to go to war to capture resources to fund this military expansion. Oh and that it was a top heavy burearcy with rampent corruption, the personal fortunes of Jews fleeing the 3rd Reich gave leading Nazis plundered fortunes, as well for f's sake they gave Hitler a gold plated elevator to his private retreat in 1939.

As to the benevolent dictatorship, well I suppose it was, unless you were Gay. Gay, or Jewish, or a tradeunionist, or a gypsy, or mentally handicapped.

The concept of a benevolent dictatorship is an oxymoron. When power is isolated among a few unelected officials corruption seeps in. I'm staggered how anyone who has even cast a cursory glance at nazi history doesn't understand that cronyism, political corruption, seizing of wealth for personal gain were at the core of the nazi idelogy. Everything else was window dressing.

Was Kernel being serious?

bonkey · 06-04-2009 9:48pm

Kernel wrote: »

guess what, it's an unfair system.

There's no such thing as a fair system....just different options what to base your unfairness on.

meglome · 06-04-2009 9:52pm

espinolman wrote: »

Well now , do you think there is'nt still hedge schools today in Ireland ?

Firstly as toiletduck also said I have no idea why hedge schools from the 19th century would have any relevance to the topic at hand. You're not a hundred years old or anything are you? Maybe you can explain?

As for hedge schools in modern times, I've never heard of or seen one. Maybe you can tell us where they are?

K4t · 06-04-2009 10:17pm

OP has made some valid points but his post is a bit OTT.

There are terms absent from textbooks that are on the cirriculums but you just have to ask your teacher to explain them.

The main troublemakers in class are often the very same people getting grinds outside of school and doing well in exams. I see it everyday in school! Everyone knows about it. It's unfair but that's life.

Sofa_King Good · 06-04-2009 11:31pm

Kernel wrote: »

Nonsense, there's plenty of dumb ****s who eventually got through private colleges thanks to Daddy's income and contacts. Capitalism controls everything, and guess what, it's an unfair system.

meglome wrote: »

Is that just cuase you say so? I don't remember there ever being a case like this in Ireland. And please don't say we just haven't found out yet, either you can show it to be happening or you can't. And if you can't it's just your opinion.

I went to a private college that I'd rather not name. And i witnessed what Kernel says first hand.

Esåpinolaman. Have to say I agree with you to an extent but even in the 80's in primary school kids who couldn't afford books were always supplied to them for free at my school. But I think inequality in education is a symptom of a greater social inequality. Half-arsed teachers was a problem in my school though.

Only bought a dictionary once. For the start of 1st year. The year you have every single one of your books on the book list brand new on the first day, even an Atlas ffs (may be confusing with primary though) and a maths set that you'll only ever use for drawing straight lines and about 50 copy books. Over the 6 years I doubt I ever used my dictionary other than to underline Penis or whatever. Use the online dictionary more now to translate Diogene's posts.

And I was in secondary school when the country was going a bit mental while the Celtic Tiger was roaring and it was a race to the top.

Less intellectually competent (rich) kids and blowhards were all shipped off to the institute for 5th and 6th year which is beyond regular working folk. Wonder what there numbers are like now'? First to third year they were doing French Grinds or whatever while I was playing football.

Ironically enough it was the reverse for me. I breezed through school and ended up doing quite well in my exams. Well exam i.e. the leaving cert. I got 3% I remember in pass maths in my mocks.

espinolman · 07-04-2009 12:06am

meglome wrote: »

Firstly as toiletduck also said I have no idea why hedge schools from the 19th century would have any relevance to the topic at hand. You're not a hundred years old or anything are you? Maybe you can explain?

As for hedge schools in modern times, I've never heard of or seen one. Maybe you can tell us where they are?

The relevance would be , is the tradition continued in another format .

A couple of years ago i done a night course in a college of further education , the person teaching the subject on that course used to check the door to see if anyone was listening that runs the college , they were afraid they would get in trouble for teaching us a subject , and that person teachiing that told me they had to keep a low profile because of the way things are in this country , so we have to get educated secretively now in the 21st century , i think that is disgraceful .
The course was on alternative nutrition , basically about what to eat to stay fit and healthy .

meglome · 07-04-2009 12:18am

espinolman wrote: »

The relevance would be , is the tradition continued in another format .

Right. No I still don't get it.

espinolman wrote: »

A couple of years ago i done a night course in a college of further education , the person teaching the subject on that course used to check the door to see if anyone was listening that runs the college , they were afraid they would get in trouble for teaching us a subject , and that person teachiing that told me they had to keep a low profile because of the way things are in this country , so we have to get educated seretively now in the 21st century , i think that is disgraceful .
The course was on health and alternative nutrition.

I've never heard of anything like you say, never. Out of curiosity I even asked around today in the office and no one else had either. And given how cheap grinds are and you can always get second-hand books cheap it doesn't make any sense either.

I bolded a bit of your post. Might that be the reason the guy was acting as he was? Maybe he was teaching something he shouldn't be? As in maybe not backed by science and just his opinion?

Of course none of this explains your first post about school. Do you wonder why no one else seems to have the same experience as you?

espinolman · 07-04-2009 12:29am

meglome wrote: »

Maybe he was teaching something he shouldn't be? As in maybe not backed by science and just his opinion?

And what did they do with St.johns wort ?, they would love to close all the health food shops in the country and ban us from growing lettuce in our gardens if they thought they could , and its not that its not backed by science , no is it that its not backed by big pharma !

Is the educational system rigged ?

Comments