Mount Carmel Hospital goes into liquidation

Larbre34 · 24-01-2014 1:40pm #1

So Mount Carmel has succumbed to the crippling medical inflation and warped medical insurance situation. 300 jobs to go and more pressure to be heaped on Dublin's already creaking maternity and diagnostics services.

Whatever long term vision this Government has for universal health cover, they must solely and immediately bear the blame for the utter collapse and calamitous decline in whats left of the State's healthcare system. I use the word system in its loosest possible sense.

Its not a crisis, its an utter and abject failure. A stunted, unusable, unworkable, unmanageable collapsed entity made up of many small failed entities and small failed policies.

Reilly to go, Kenny to apologise profusely and set up an immediate task force with emergency funding to save the health and lives of ordinary citizens who thanks to other prohibitive cuts cannot provide even basic healthcare for themselves.

Shiraz 4.99 · 24-01-2014 2:06pm

Losses are small relative to turnover, this will be bought out privately

spank_inferno · 24-01-2014 2:08pm

So OP, what is your solution?

michael999999 · 24-01-2014 2:12pm

Maybe you should get micheal martin to get a report written up on it OP!

Larbre34 · 24-01-2014 3:17pm

spank_inferno wrote: »

So OP, what is your solution?

No need for a report to see the basic economics of the sector.

Reverse the prohibitive burden on private insurance by the Government imposed hikes on private-in-public treatment. Thats a false economy anyway as the burden of extra cost falls on public hospitals. Incentivise rather than discourage private hospital use to reduce the pressure on public hospitals. Encourage those who have some chance of paying private insurance cover to stay with it rather than leave in droves.

spank_inferno · 24-01-2014 3:36pm

What has the government charging VHI x-amount for an Xray in a public hospital got to do with a private hospital?

If anything, the changes in tax relief are of much greater relevance?

Are you suggesting people be forced to take up private healthcare insurance a-la Obamacare?

creedp · 24-01-2014 4:12pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

No need for a report to see the basic economics of the sector.

Reverse the prohibitive burden on private insurance by the Government imposed hikes on private-in-public treatment. Thats a false economy anyway as the burden of extra cost falls on public hospitals. Incentivise rather than discourage private hospital use to reduce the pressure on public hospitals. Encourage those who have some chance of paying private insurance cover to stay with it rather than leave in droves.

If anything increasing the cost of private care in public hospitals should have benefited the likes of Mount Carmel because the price difference between being a private patient in a public hospital and a private hospital should close. For private hospitals to prosper the Govt should ensure that private health insurance companies can save money by forcing their members to use public hospitals.

I wonder if private hospitals could reduce their cost base .. this would also help them generate extra demand .. after all they are in the competitive/wealth generating part of the economy.

spank_inferno · 24-01-2014 4:29pm

creedp wrote: »

I wonder if private hospitals could reduce their cost base .. this would also help them generate extra demand .. after all they are in the competitive/wealth generating part of the economy.

That's the thing, considering the fees charged, why couldn't they make money.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 24-01-2014 9:01pm

creedp wrote: »

If anything increasing the cost of private care in public hospitals should have benefited the likes of Mount Carmel because the price difference between being a private patient in a public hospital and a private hospital should close.

Of course, you're right. In any event, most of the claim income paid by private health insurers goes to private hospitals and consultants, and not to public hospitals. As the C&AG found, nearly half of private patients in public hospitals are put into public beds - so they are only charged the public charge of €75 per day, up to a limit of €750 per year, which bears no relationship to the economic cost of the bed. That's an effective subsidy of private medicine carried by the HSE at a cost of a few hundred million a year.

Another rarely mentioned fact is that about 30% more is being paid out in private health insurance claims now than in 2008. Many think that, because the numbers covered by health insurance has dropped by a few percent, that this means claim income paid for private healthcare is down. That's not the case. Private medicine in Ireland is earning substantially more, in respect of that slightly smaller group of subscribers.

ressem · 24-01-2014 10:03pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

So Mount Carmel has succumbed to the crippling medical inflation and warped medical insurance situation. 300 jobs to go and more pressure to be heaped on Dublin's already creaking maternity and diagnostics services.

Jerry Gannon's (one of the Anglo speculators) property speculation to put 40 houses on the site left it with €50 million debt to NAMA. Which is the root of the closure.
And it's turnover dropped from 42 million to 32 million, so it has been lossmaking for a few years now.

Reilly to go, Kenny to apologise profusely and set up an immediate task force with emergency funding to save the health and lives of ordinary citizens who thanks to other prohibitive cuts cannot provide even basic healthcare for themselves.

Apologies to the staff, but better for it to close than to risk management carrying out behind-the-scenes costcutting on equipment to prop up an unsustainable debt.
I think the government was correct not to get the State to acquire the NAMA loan, that it's better investing elsewhere in the HSE.

I am bitter regarding Mount Carmel though.

OMD · 25-01-2014 7:55am

Larbre34 wrote: »

So Mount Carmel has succumbed to the crippling medical inflation and warped medical insurance situation. 300 jobs to go and more pressure to be heaped on Dublin's already creaking maternity and diagnostics services.

Whatever long term vision this Government has for universal health cover, they must solely and immediately bear the blame for the utter collapse and calamitous decline in whats left of the State's healthcare system. I use the word system in its loosest possible sense.

Its not a crisis, its an utter and abject failure. A stunted, unusable, unworkable, unmanageable collapsed entity made up of many small failed entities and small failed policies.

Reilly to go, Kenny to apologise profusely and set up an immediate task force with emergency funding to save the health and lives of ordinary citizens who thanks to other prohibitive cuts cannot provide even basic healthcare for themselves.

Mount Carmel is going because it was bought by speculators at the height of the boom with the intention of closing the hospital, knocking it down and building houses/apartments on the site. Due to the collapse of the economy they did not go ahead with the plan and ironically the economic collapse kept the hospital open. This has nothing to do with current government it is a case of another group of property speculators getting it totally wrong during the boom.

gandalf · 25-01-2014 11:27am

Larbre34 wrote: »

So Mount Carmel has succumbed to the crippling medical inflation and warped medical insurance situation. 300 jobs to go and more pressure to be heaped on Dublin's already creaking maternity and diagnostics services.

Whatever long term vision this Government has for universal health cover, they must solely and immediately bear the blame for the utter collapse and calamitous decline in whats left of the State's healthcare system. I use the word system in its loosest possible sense.

I don't normally back the Government up in the area of Healthcare but in this case you can trace Mount Carmels problems back to last government and the failure to control property speculation.

The owners of Mount Carmel before NAMA took over their monumental debts are the ones to lay the blame at here. They took over the hospital looking at the potential to develop the land it stood on without it seems even taking into account that it was running at a loss at that stage as well (I read a figure of 16 million in the red when it was taken over).

Its not a crisis, its an utter and abject failure. A stunted, unusable, unworkable, unmanageable collapsed entity made up of many small failed entities and small failed policies.

Reilly to go, Kenny to apologise profusely and set up an immediate task force with emergency funding to save the health and lives of ordinary citizens who thanks to other prohibitive cuts cannot provide even basic healthcare for themselves.

If you think a single Government term can fix the complete and utter mess that is the HSE then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I do think you are correct that Reilly should go at this stage but not because of the closure of Mount Carmel. This Government have failed because they haven't had the balls to tackle the extreme waste and over staffing of the back office segments of the HSE so the funds could be diverted to the front line where they are needed.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 25-01-2014 1:06pm

I see NAMA are defusing the most obvious political fallout

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0125/500124-mount-carmel/

The liquidators of Mount Carmel Hospital have been instructed by the National Asset Management Agency to repay deposits to expectant mothers.

However, only deposits paid to the hospital can be repaid by the liquidators. Deposits paid to consultants are a matter for individual consultants.

Repayment will be decided on a case-by-case, depending on how much service has been received. However, any balance will be given back.<...>

rodento · 25-01-2014 1:29pm

Simply put Mount Carmel been hit by falls in private health insurance by young couples caused by both immigration, private health insurance tax's & price rises.

The government is mainly to blame for the latter

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 25-01-2014 2:47pm

rodento wrote: »

Simply put Mount Carmel been hit by falls in private health insurance by young couples caused by both immigration, private health insurance tax's price rises.

The government is mainly to blame for the latter

Private health insurance is relatively less affordable for younger people, because of community rating, so there could be an element of truth in what you say.

However, Mount Carmel's fall in income occurred at a time when the total amount paid out in private health insurance claims increased significantly. Hence, tbh, it's really just a casualty of an overinvestment in private hospital beds.

paul71 · 25-01-2014 10:26pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I see NAMA are defusing the most obvious political fallout

I heard this on the news earlier and my first thought was, what authority do NAMA or indeed anyone else other then the courts have over an appointed liquidator.

rodento · 26-01-2014 11:26am

Should it be considered as a possible location for the new childern's hospital

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 26-01-2014 12:31pm

paul71 wrote: »

I heard this on the news earlier and my first thought was, what authority do NAMA or indeed anyone else other then the courts have over an appointed liquidator.

Good point. Could they invite the liquidator to act as an intermediary, if NAMA wanted to fund ex-gratia payments to the women in question?

ressem · 26-01-2014 5:39pm

rodento wrote: »

Should it be considered as a possible location for the new childern's hospital

Land availability is not the issue with the Children's hospital. As the Dolphin report mentioned, free offers of land were given to the examination board (15 acres in Newland by the IRFU, 200 acres near the airport by Frank Connan). And Connelly Hospital has enough land to expand for a 3 million population Dublin towards the next century.
(pg 44-47 http://www.dohc.ie/issues/childrens_hospital/final_report_etc/Final_Dolphin_Report_June2012.pdf?direct=1)

Mount Carmel would be far too small a site, in a location where planning permission for a high rise would be strongly contested, no co-location. Thankfully no-one could justify spending a cent on considering it.

It'll be bought for a tenth of the debt value with the taxpayer hit with the difference and restarted most likely in a limited form, with planning permission sought similar to the original failed housing development minus the hospital rebuild.

It's not constructed like, say, the Galway clinic which was designed by the architect with a backup plan as a hotel available.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 26-01-2014 10:38pm

ressem wrote: »

It'll be bought for a tenth of the debt value with the taxpayer hit with the difference and restarted most likely in a limited form, with planning permission sought similar to the original failed housing development minus the hospital rebuild.

Clearly, there will be a loss for the taxpayer with respect to the debt secured on the property. But isn't it closing specifically because it can't be sold as a going concern? I wasn't under the impression that prospective purchasers were expected to take over the debts secured on the hospital. It just wasn't worth that much as a business - was it reported that NAMA only had a bid of €2 million on the table?

On a tangent, it does suggest that no-one expects the plan to introduce universal health insurance to happen any time soon. I think there was a hope, at one point, that it might bail out the private hospital sector.

Mount Carmel Hospital goes into liquidation

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