Discipline in schools

MrJones1973 · 07-04-2014 8:18am #1

Here is a situation-details have been altered to protect identities

Teacher takes up a copy of a student doing french in a history class. Later student interrupts class by continuing on a discussion that I had asked to cease. An irrelevant discussion. Is removed from class, Student comes back in class after bell-demanding copy back. Teacher refuses and asks student to leave. Student demands copy. Teacher asks pupil to leave again-teacher asks four times (classroom is empty bar the two)-Teacher says "you are being "threatening"-asks student twice more to leave

Student eventually leaves with threat " I will be back later to get it"

What would happen in your school to this student?

Mr Pseudonym · 07-04-2014 10:35am

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Here is a situation-details have been altered to protect identities

Teacher takes up a copy of a student doing french in a history class. Later student interrupts class by continuing on a discussion that I had asked to cease. An irrelevant discussion. Is removed from class, Student comes back in class after bell-demanding copy back. Teacher refuses and asks student to leave. Student demands copy. Teacher asks pupil to leave again-teacher asks four times (classroom is empty bar the two)-Teacher says "you are being "threatening"-asks student twice more to leave

Student eventually leaves with threat " I will be back later to get it"

What would happen in your school to this student?

Student clearly has personal problems. Why didn't the teacher seek to defuse the situation?

MrJones1973 · 07-04-2014 12:04pm

Seek to defuse?! The guy was aggressive-do you tolerate aggression? His request was unreasonable given the background. teacher asked him to politely leave 7 times. There had been other incidents of disturbance in the class. On health and welfare grounds-he was a psych-social hazard.

seavill · 07-04-2014 1:36pm

Why did the teacher want to keep the copy?

Nicole. · 07-04-2014 1:45pm

seavill wrote: »

Why did the teacher want to keep the copy?

From the details given I think it's because of the tone which the student used when asking for it back.

spurious · 07-04-2014 1:48pm

This would be a very mild incident for some of the places I worked.
I would have given the copy back initially and spoken to the teacher involved about the homework being done in my class.
The disruption of the class I would discuss with the child when he had calmed down a bit.

Nicole. · 07-04-2014 2:15pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Here is a situation-details have been altered to protect identities

Teacher takes up a copy of a student doing french in a history class. Later student interrupts class by continuing on a discussion that I had asked to cease. An irrelevant discussion. Is removed from class, Student comes back in class after bell-demanding copy back. Teacher refuses and asks student to leave. Student demands copy. Teacher asks pupil to leave again-teacher asks four times (classroom is empty bar the two)-Teacher says "you are being "threatening"-asks student twice more to leave

Student eventually leaves with threat " I will be back later to get it"

What would happen in your school to this student?

While doing homework in another teacher's class is frustrating for a teacher and is largely unproductive in retrospect, I have to admit that I have done this in class and would have been one of the better behaved students in my year. When the teacher took the copy it should have been explained that the student would get it back after class. Students saying irrelevant things in class are pretty normal things to happen, just try and steer them back on track, removal from a class should be your last resort. If there was a gang of them sitting beside each other disrupting the class I would have moved them to another seat. It is mentioned that there weren't many students in the classroom towards the end of the conversation, I would have moved into a more public area to prevent this situation from developing as it is indicated that the teacher felt threatened, it is never a good idea to be alone with students in a situation like that.

It's all well and good to say things in retrospect but perhaps next time if there is a next time this would be a better approach as I think the student just got really frustrated because they needed the copy back. If they were doing homework in class it means that they are behind on the work and are at least trying to get some of it done, not at the right time but still.

In the school I went to it it would probably be referred to the student's year head and they might have a conversation with them about what happened and advise them not to do homework in another teacher's class again etc.

MrJones1973 · 07-04-2014 4:27pm

The copy was retained so as to decide what to do with it later. The student was aggressive which nobody here seems to think unacceptable. The student was asked to leave the room 7 times which again everyone here thinks is acceptable. The student frustrated?? He can deal with it. He had caused a few incidents of disruption and failed to leave a room when requested-even after he was told his stance was "Threatening" This is a boy nearly 18. Is this what we have descended to-accepting this as normal?

Exactly why should a teacher leave his/her room when they feel a threat?? What message are we teaching by this approach? The onus is on the student to leave not the teacher. This pup will no doubt be asking for a reference soon-what would you write?!

The problem is this student has been a cause of off/on again problems-a simple rap on the knuckles rarely works in my exp. Could people please clarify if they do teach-rather than talking about "Their day in school"

Ask yourselves this-what would happen if he tried this in another workplace??

evolving_doors · 07-04-2014 4:32pm

Copy must be returned to other teacher.. If you give back the copy then the student will simply finish the homework and claim they were looking for something in the copy.

If you stayarguing this is perceived as a negotiation process by certain lippy students. If I every confiscate anything, I take it and leg it as quick as possible to the staffroom...Pass the problem up the line so they know youare following procedure..phone goes straight to reception, copy goes straight to other teacher.

Sounds like that type of student needs attention so disengage asap... Tell em take it up with tutor/yearhead/principal.

I think you did the right thing op, although if there was an implied threat you need to record that by email or in a book!

nqtfarmer · 07-04-2014 4:49pm

While I avoid arguing at all costs, I would keep the copy and write up an incident report on the event. I think the OP did well under the circumstances and we should acknowledge that. As teachers, aggression should never be shown towards us nor we show aggression towards students. However, I am very concerned about discipline and the level of aggression that can occur within a classroom.
In a school nearby a student got expelled lately for punching and kicking another student in the yard. When I went to school, you were terrified of being caught by a teacher, be it homework, talking, misbehaving etc. Where has this level of respect gone? Should students be afraid to cross us/

Arbiter of Good Taste · 07-04-2014 4:53pm

I am not a teacher.

I'm shocked that anyone would think that the student's behaviour was anything other than completely unacceptable. I appreciate we are only hearing one side of the story, but if the story is true to form, the teacher seems to have acted reasonably.

If he starts pulling stunts like this in the workplace, he'll find himself with his P45 PDQ.

ytareh · 07-04-2014 5:28pm

The fact that some previous posters see this as anything other than a no brainer is indicative of the rot that has set in to teaching .Student acts the #%^^*+ and teacher is told how they should/could have handled situation better !!!While I hate the idea of corporal punishment and that students should go to school terrified I'm not sure it's any worse than teachers being afraid to discipline students .(Which frankly they are , I know I am!)Standards will be in free fall if this sort of thing continues .They continuously dumb down the Maths syllabus and the numbers failing continues to rise .Hmmmmmm........?!

Mr Pseudonym · 07-04-2014 5:53pm

Telling the student (a male, it has been revealed) to leave seven times was only going to rile. I'm not excusing the student's behaviour, and it goes without saying that any physical intimidation is utterly wrong and should be punished. But, a sympathetic teacher may have been able to deal with the situation better. For instance, were I in it, and had my requests ignored, I would have left the classroom and gone to the Principal's office; the student is unlikely to follow, and only the most troubled student would vandalise the classroom - I suggest one wouldn't want to stay in a classroom with a student who would.

Just my opinion. I'm not stating it as fact, nor disparaging the the teacher in question.

Grumpy Greg · 07-04-2014 6:10pm

When locked in a situation like this with a student i never shout (They're better at it than me). I would calmly explain why I,m keeping the copy pointing out that this is reasonable. I would also point out to him that his current aggressive/threatening behaviour is making a bad situation worse. In a sense he was stung get over it and drop the attitude.

MrJones1973 · 07-04-2014 6:43pm

Thanks for replies. If teacher left room then yes student would possibly follow leading to a public spectacle. I have been follwed by students. At a minimum this student should be suspended. As for reasoning? Perhaps but the patience tank was empty. I know the ever patient teacher model is all the rage now but show me clear evidence that such a person is more successful than an occasionaly grumpy teacher. There is none. We are not in a creche and I'm not sure smiling and talking like we are on vallium is always a good idea. Most times yes to survive but to do it always and kids are learning what about life ? That everyone will be balanced with them ?

seavill · 07-04-2014 6:45pm

I know the question that our P would ask, what are your grounds for suspension?
Is it for aggressive behavior (if so can it be portrayed on paper) is it for constant disruptions, is it for repeated indiscretions, is it for not following instructions?
Did you follow the system of referral in your school?

I'm not questioning you, you asked at the start what would happen in my school that is what would be asked, unless it was a major incident

MrJones1973 · 07-04-2014 7:12pm

Well what would happen in the so called real world? Here is what I'm going to do. Advise teacher the adult is a health hazard in that he has been intimidating. Management must provide assurances this psychsocial hazard has been dealt with so that he the student can be considered safe to re enter room. Look it up folks it's all there in the health and welfare act. Notice the welfare bit? You have a water spill you ensure others don't fall as well. We are entitled to apphysically and mentally safe work place and it's the one area we have left to fight on.

whiteandlight · 07-04-2014 7:17pm

Student out of line. For my own sake I would have been sticking rigidly to school discipline policy to start with

First taken copy with a clear instruction I would hand it back to their teacher and given note in journal
Second disruption taken journal marked for a year book entry with a verbal explanation of why (contined disruption of class)
Arguing after class: restate both notes in the journal, reiterate the copy will be given to the teacher in question.

Continued disruption/aggressive behavious? 'Can you come with me now please to the Deputy Pricipal/Year Head/tutor.

It is in no way acceptable for a student to ever threaten their teacher

mtoutlemonde · 07-04-2014 10:19pm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I would have left the classroom and gone to the Principal's office

Hi, would this not cause some trouble for the teacher? Leaving a class of X students on their own? (Unless principals office was close to your classroom). I never leave my classroom for one minute with students unsupervised.

I had a similar situation a few years ago - a student had the audacity to put up his hand and ask me if 'I knew how to make an improper fraction into a proper fraction?' (I don't teach Maths), to which I responded 'Are you doing your homework in my class?' His answer was 'Yes' My response to that was to ask him for his Maths book and copy and inform him that he could get it from his maths teacher. He did without a problem although he asked me about three times before I had chance to give the Maths book and copy to his teacher. He got a good talking too and a few days detention, I got an apology and another one after the parent teacher meeting

rainbowtrout · 07-04-2014 10:29pm

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Student out of line. For my own sake I would have been sticking rigidly to school discipline policy to start with

First taken copy with a clear instruction I would hand it back to their teacher and given note in journal
Second disruption taken journal marked for a year book entry with a verbal explanation of why (contined disruption of class)
Arguing after class: restate both notes in the journal, reiterate the copy will be given to the teacher in question.

Continued disruption/aggressive behavious? 'Can you come with me now please to the Deputy Pricipal/Year Head/tutor.

It is in no way acceptable for a student to ever threaten their teacher

I would have done pretty much the same. That would the policy in my place more or less.

evolving_doors · 07-04-2014 10:32pm

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Hi, would this not cause some trouble for the teacher? Leaving a class of X students on their own? (Unless principals office was close to your classroom). I never leave my classroom for one minute with students unsupervised.

I had a similar situation a few years ago - a student had the audacity to put up his hand and ask me if 'I knew how to make an improper fraction into a proper fraction?' (I don't teach Maths), to which I responded 'Are you doing your homework in my class?' His answer was 'Yes' My response to that was to ask him for his Maths book and copy and inform him that he could get it from his maths teacher. He did without a problem although he asked me about three times before I had chance to give the Maths book and copy to his teacher. He got a good talking too and a few days detention, I got an apology and another one after the parent teacher meeting

Think the OP and the student were the last ones in the classroom and the student refused to leave.

teacherhead · 08-04-2014 12:12am

I'm not sure that this incident could be used as evidence that the whole world is falling apart but it is indicative of the type of thing we are seeing a lot of in schools.

I think the teacher did the right thing, taking the copy. So many just ignore, pretend not to see or, worse, give in when challenged by the student. These kids have grown up in a pester culture, they get their way at home so they want it in school too. So fair play for sticking to your guns.

As for punishment you need to look at the endgame. This could end up at a BOM appeal so you have to have good grounds to suspend a kid from school.

Without knowing the child, the history, the teacher, the context it's very hard to comment. In my school I would say that the following might happen....

Teacher whose homework wasnt done - horse the punishment work on for not presenting homework and trying to do it in another class.

Class teacher where it happened - punishment for being inattentive and uncooperative in class

Year head - (who would know the student) could take account of the students history and perhaps give an after school detention with a written apology to the teacher. Letter home with a warning that further such problems would be met with a few days to cool down. (assuming the lad has no history of this, if he has fire him out for a day or two)

The key is that everyone has to take action. It can't be just the year head or DP or boss.

Glancing through the posts it seems to be all about the copy. It's not. It's about not working in class, not cooperating with teachers, not doing homework and not accepted the school rules when implemented. So there is a role for all here imo.

Just my ravings of a Monday night.

evolving_doors · 08-04-2014 8:36am

On a more positive note...

At least the kid wasnt copying someone elses homework.

They acknowledged the hassle involved in not presenting homework...

Deception is preferable to apathy...

But the student is still a numpty...

bette · 08-04-2014 8:41am

The student should have been politely requested to put the copy away. How simple is that? If he didn't comply the headmaster would have been informed after the class finished.

MrJones1973 · 08-04-2014 8:53am

Thanks for replies.I notice no one commented on my welfare complaint. In private sector this on going behavior would be classed as bullying. Im sure in every walk of life we all let people away with bad behavior. They could be a client. Our boss. We cant lodge complaints without considering the damage that might do to our career. However teachers take too much grief, look at the health and welfare legislation. A few chosen phrases in a discipline report can really startle management. Ie if you feel student is physically threatening you are within your legal rights to have him excluded . If they insist on putting him back in you state they are deliberately ignoring a health hazard. It works

?

kronsich · 08-04-2014 7:08pm

Obviously not going to condone the behaviour of this kid but can I just say that the kids are tired at this stage of the year. Had a kid scream at me on Monday; his apology to me stated projects due, exams coming up, orals, etc. I was really pissed off but I asked him for homework and he just snapped.

I'd agree with. Musicmental, those would be the correct steps to take and in accordance with the policies of most schools. However, I'd give the copy back at the end of the class, tell the subject teacher on the QT and move on.

evolving_doors · 08-04-2014 8:26pm

Definitely keep the copy for evidence as it will show unfinished homework. I got stung before when I gave the copy back..student finished the homework and told the other teacher they were looking for something in the copy. Fast forward to ptm and it was a case of "my son said they were only doing xyz..are you calling him a liar..".

Lesson learned, get evidence and show it to someone else.

kermitpwee · 08-04-2014 10:37pm

If you had a one on one with the student in your class with no other person there I would tread carefully with your 'threatening' argument. The student can always say you touched them ect. Telling a student to leave your class more than once is showing your lack of classroom management, I feel for you but you don't really sound like a teacher that has good control in the classroom. There is no way that it is a suspension issue in my eyes. I am a teacher and management must be supportive of the staff but ultimately you must be able to look after your own house.

chippers · 09-04-2014 2:40pm

kermitpwee wrote: »

If you had a one on one with the student in your class with no other person there I would tread carefully with your 'threatening' argument. The student can always say you touched them ect. Telling a student to leave your class more than once is showing your lack of classroom management, I feel for you but you don't really sound like a teacher that has good control in the classroom. There is no way that it is a suspension issue in my eyes. I am a teacher and management must be supportive of the staff but ultimately you must be able to look after your own house.

Why?

MrJones1973 · 09-04-2014 3:44pm

kermitpwee wrote: »

If you had a one on one with the student in your class with no other person there I would tread carefully with your 'threatening' argument. The student can always say you touched them ect. Telling a student to leave your class more than once is showing your lack of classroom management, I feel for you but you don't really sound like a teacher that has good control in the classroom. There is no way that it is a suspension issue in my eyes. I am a teacher and management must be supportive of the staff but ultimately you must be able to look after your own house.

You did not read my post(s) very well. I didn't not ask the student into the classroom. He came back into the room. I dont know where you teach but in many schools students dont always follow instructions. If they did straight away we would hardly have any discipline problems. You dont know me-I dont know you and your comments are personally offensive. Im going to leave this with the moderators. I have reported it. I suppose my thread management is poor too.!!

MrJones1973 · 09-04-2014 3:54pm

kronsich wrote: »

Obviously not going to condone the behaviour of this kid but can I just say that the kids are tired at this stage of the year. Had a kid scream at me on Monday; his apology to me stated projects due, exams coming up, orals, etc. I was really pissed off but I asked him for homework and he just snapped.

I'd agree with. Musicmental, those would be the correct steps to take and in accordance with the policies of most schools. However, I'd give the copy back at the end of the class, tell the subject teacher on the QT and move on.

Everyone can have a bad day but I have worked with all sorts of Management types-competent and incompetent. I only lost it with one guy in 15 years. Why? Authority structure. I know my place. I can argue without losing it. Especially with someone who is my boss. Its up to parents to teach basic respect for authority. We spend too much time tip toeing around kids so they don't get "upset.".
I doubt when they get a job such consideration will be given to them?
As for a student shouting-depends on the kid. If its an out of the blue thing-then we all deserve a break . Him too.
BTW-despite stating it a few times-kid was outside the room-came back in. It was not just about the copy. Other issues with this guy.

Discipline in schools

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