Laptop for development

boobar · 10-03-2013 9:55pm #1

Folks,

I haven't done any programming for many years, I'm in a business analyst/project manager role now but would like to get back to basics with java and SQL and pl/SQL in the coming months.

So just for trying to learn and revisit these languages, what spec laptop would be needed. My current laptop is almost 8 years old.

Didn't want to post in Laptops forum as this query is aimed at developers.

Any suggestions on what to buy?

ChRoMe · 10-03-2013 9:57pm

boobar wrote: »

Folks,

I haven't done any programming for many years, I'm in a business analyst/project manager role now but would like to get back to basics with java and SQL and pl/SQL in the coming months.

So just for trying to learn and revisit these languages, what spec laptop would be needed. My current laptop is almost 8 years old.

Didn't want to post in Laptops forum as this query is aimed at developers.

Any suggestions on what to buy?

Lenovo thinkpad, spend as much as you can possibly afford, they give value.

jimmycrackcorm · 11-03-2013 12:21am

Something with an i7 core, 8gb ram, an ssd drive and a wide screen

KonFusion · 11-03-2013 12:35am

For basic java and SQL you don't need much in the way of grunt.

While I'd agree with Chrome and buy the best you can afford, an i7 with 8gb of ram is overkill for your needs.

I could recommend some specific laptops if you give me a budget, and whether you'll be bringing it around places (into work etc) or just using it at home, and what kind of work you expect to be doing on the laptop in the short and long run?

boobar · 11-03-2013 12:35am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Something with an i7 core, 8gb ram, an ssd drive and a wide screen

Was thinking of this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lenovo-Ideapad-Z580-15-6-laptop/dp/B009RGBD2C/ref=sr_1_1?m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1362958142&sr=1-1

As Chrome mentioned Lenovo, specifically ThinkPad, I know this is an IdeaPad....the ThinkPads seemed to be much more expensive, so I thought this might help with the budget.

jimmycrackcorm, you suggested a ssd drive, again this pushes the cost up significantly.

Given my budget is 500 pushed to 650 for a very good spec, do you think this is worth pursuing.

Or is there something specific about the sad that makes it more appropriate?

boobar · 11-03-2013 12:37am

KonFusion wrote: »

For basic java and SQL you don't need much in the way of grunt.

While I'd agree with Chrome and buy the best you can afford, an i7 with 8gb of ram is overkill for your needs.

I could recommend some specific laptops if you give me a budget, and whether you'll be bringing it around places (into work etc) or just using it at home, and what kind of work you expect to be doing on the laptop in the short and long run?

Thanks KonFusion,

I'd like to get something for around 500 to 650 Mark...

It doesn't need to be ultra portable, will use it at home mostly.

Just want it for general stuff, browsing, word, excel, watch the odd movie...

But also want to revisit programming, learning Java and revisiting SQL. Just basic stuff, as I'm a long time away from programming

Sparks · 11-03-2013 12:43am

Love the thinkpads myself, but I think this idea that you need to spend as much as you can is an idea that stopped being right about five to ten years ago - our laptops are just enormously more capable than we need. My work laptop is a W500 and frankly, it's got more oomph than anyone who isn't trying to simulate protein folding is going to need.

If you want to have a gaming laptop, yes, spend like a sailor. Or if you're doing massive amounts of data work. But honestly, if you just want to do some LAMP stack programming or mucking about with python or whatever, then save your cash. Buy something a generation or two back. If you have the cash to spend and want a treat, first buy RAM, then buy an SSD -- but if you just want a platform to work off, go to a second-hand dealership online (I use this crowd in germany but there are others) and get something like a T61 (for €230) or a W500 (for €440) and away you go (or an X61 or X200 if you want something smaller and more portable).

Seriously, if you're only getting back into programming, you are not going to get anywhere near the limits of those machines, so why pay six times the price for a new one? Save the money, buy good books on programming instead

Sparks · 11-03-2013 12:56am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Something with an i7 core, 8gb ram, an ssd drive and a wide screen

...are you kidding me? What are you planning on doing, running all of seti@home?

Look, I'm writing this on bob, my bug-out box (it's meant to be the machine I carry around with me on any trips abroad and which does all my comms), which is a lenovo S205 ideapad. My work machine is a W500 thinkpad, my home office box is an R61 thinkpad, and none of them is in any way a speed demon, and I code for a living and I have never had code that reached the limits of those machines when working properly. Seriously. Modern machines are <bleep>-off fast. The thing that uses the most cycles on most developer's machines isn't the code they write - it's that big heavy IDE they're so fond of, and the web browser searching through stackoverflow.com for a "how do I do this with that" question

The machines you want to be speed demons are your gaming rigs, and yes, there you should spend like a sailor if you like the latest bells-n-whistles and playing FPS games on massively high resolution and high framerates. For coding, not so much.

Trojan · 11-03-2013 2:36am

Sparks wrote: »

...are you kidding me? What are you planning on doing, running all of seti@home?

+1000

Besides, if your rig is too quick, how can you ever...

(Although, if you do any video rendering whatsoever, go big and fast)

SalteeDog · 11-03-2013 2:23pm

Your existing laptop is probably fine.

I have an old Dell laptop about the same age and have had no problem running Eclipse off a 4GB Puppylinux USB key - which also has a LAMP stack on it (for PHP and MySQL).

It's fine for learning.

awec · 11-03-2013 2:37pm

Personally I hate big laptops, I like the smaller form factors with higher resolution screens. You can get 1920x1080 resolutions on 13 inch screens nowadays.

To be honest, with laptops unless you are going to spend a clean fortune you are going to have to sacrifice on something. Whether that's processor, RAM, battery, screen or portability is up to you.

I think my new laptop will be either one of these (with i5 instead of i7 though): http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/31/asus-zenbook-prime-ux31a-touch-review/

Or this: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/17/3883544/lenovo-thinkpad-x1-carbon-touch-review

That said I don't do a massive amount of dev on a laptop, certainly nothing massive.

Anima · 11-03-2013 2:39pm

Try https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/. I got mine there and it's a beast. Worked out at about a grand with i7, 8 gigs ram, decent gfx card, SSD and decent SATA drive also. I think it's the Optimus IV or something like that.

Really all you need is a somewhat decent CPU (i5 would be perfect), a good bit of RAM (no less than 4 gig) and whatever storage requirements. An SSD is a very nice luxury also. Your laptop will boot quickly, compile speeds will be better, applications will open much faster. It's good from a productivity point of view so I'd say it's worth the investment!

Sparks · 11-03-2013 2:41pm

Technically true awec, but saying you have to sacrifice on processor speed with a modern laptop when talking about doing development work is like saying that you were only able to jump off the hundredth floor of the Empire State building instead of the hundred-and-second...

Sparks · 11-03-2013 2:44pm

Anima wrote: »

Your laptop will boot quickly

....not worth the cash. An old s205 takes less than a minute to boot.

compile speeds will be better

Unless you're compiling something the size of the linux kernel, you won't notice the difference...

applications will open much faster

And unless you measure the time in microseconds, you won't notice the difference.

Seriously, over a grand for a new laptop, or €250 (inc. vat and delivery) for one that does the job perfectly well.

Hell, buy two second-hand laptops and learn network programming

awec · 11-03-2013 2:54pm

Sparks wrote: »

Technically true awec, but saying you have to sacrifice on processor speed with a modern laptop when talking about doing development work is like saying that you were only able to jump off the hundredth floor of the Empire State building instead of the hundred-and-second...

Depends what sort of development you do I guess.

Sparks · 11-03-2013 3:05pm

Yes - if you're doing image manipulation, or video work, or developing the next FPS shooter, or whatever, then yes you need a lot of horsepower.

If you're just looking to get back into programming after a break, you just don't, and half these recommendations are "what I want for xmas" lists

GreenWolfe · 11-03-2013 3:48pm

I bought a Thinkpad X200 just for college work last year off eBay. The keyboard is great, and it's hauled around in my backpack all day so it's fairly tough. The downsides are that the screen is somewhat dull, and the trackpoint-only pointer may not suit some people. I find it's much easier to use if you set the trackpoint sensitivity to the highest setting.

It's fine for office tasks, and Eclipse and MySQL runs reasonably well. However, I don't run big databases or projects so YMMV. It isn't much of an entertainment machine - the screen along with the speakers just aren't geared up for that. It's a fine workhorse though.

OP, a few pointers if you decide to buy second hand:

Read the description very carefully. If the listing lists dents or damage apart from normal wear and tear that you're not sure of, don't take the risk.
For example, the Thinkpad I got has a small crack near the bottom lip of the right hand side of the wrist rest. That being said, it doesn't affect the operation or integrity of the laptop in any way.
Also, the laptop may not have any software supplied or all parts provided. For instance, if you had to purchase a HDD caddy/charger or an OS licence, it may wipe out any savings you may have made by buying second hand.
Thinkpad-specific - if the ad mentions that the BIOS is password locked, don't under any circumstances buy it.
Don't expect any decent life out of the battery pack.
Install the maximum amount of RAM the computer will take.

stevenmu · 11-03-2013 3:54pm

Tbh I'd go a little further than Sparks and suggest even sticking with the laptop that you have at the moment, at least for a little while. If you're just doing the basics then you should be fine. Then in the future when you want to run heavier stuff you can look at upgrading and get better bang for your buck then, you'll also have a better idea of what specific things you'll need.

stevenmu · 11-03-2013 4:01pm

FWIW I have a Thinkpad with an older Core i5 and 8GB ram. Typically when developing I would be running multiple VMs and one or more instances of Visual Studio and MS SQL Server, along with having Outlook, Word etc open.

Even with all that running, I'm still generally not stressing the laptop in any way. I love my Thinkpad, but it would be severe overkill if it was just for messing around with at home.

Ludo · 11-03-2013 8:07pm

If you plan on using ad IDE such as Eclipse, I would say a large screen is essential. I find nothing more annoying than trying to use eclipse on a 15 inch screen. The larger the better. If possible, the more the better in fact.

KonFusion · 11-03-2013 8:42pm

FYI, I use this when I'm away from my main rig. In work I have it on a laptop stand hooked up to an (sometimes 2) external display, as the screen size is small.

Decent price, 2nd gen i3, and yes overkill for what you need, but if you can get it VAT free through your job, it's a total bargain, and should last you another 8 years

Alternatively I can also recommend this

Chances are though the laptop you have at the moment should suit you fine for what you need, which is very basic.

If not, pick up some old laptop on ebay/adverts with the old gen dual core processors. I've a core 2 duo inspiron 1525, that I've run into the ground, that's almost 6 years old, and apart from the sound and video no longer working, and the screen now being a separate component to the rest of the laptop, she runs like a beauty. Seriously :pac:

Trojan · 12-03-2013 3:39am

Sparks wrote: »

Your laptop will boot quickly

....not worth the cash. An old s205 takes less than a minute to boot.

I disagree with this - it might not be essential, but an SSD upgrade is the best thing ever.

I'll never use a non-SSD for system disk again. 18 seconds from power-on to desktop-ready is just so useful.

irishdude11 · 12-03-2013 9:59am

Ludo wrote: »

If you plan on using ad IDE such as Eclipse, I would say a large screen is essential. I find nothing more annoying than trying to use eclipse on a 15 inch screen. The larger the better. If possible, the more the better in fact.

+1. Nothing worse than developing with tight screen space.

As many others have already said, any modern laptop that costs a few hundred euro is more than powerful enough to handle 99% of development needs. My priority in buying a laptop for development would be a 17" good quality screen. Development is really a two screen task, its bad enough when you are limited to one screen, at least make that screen as big you can.

markpb · 12-03-2013 10:21am

I'm just echoing what others have said but I'd buy a cheap laptop (I still use my 6 year old Thinkpad T60 when I'm at home) but for me, my two priorities are screen size and books. Small screens are a curse to develop on and a good book or ten will serve you much better than an SSD or gaming rig.

lemon_remon · 12-03-2013 9:19pm

irishdude11 wrote: »

+1. Nothing worse than developing with tight screen space.

As many others have already said, any modern laptop that costs a few hundred euro is more than powerful enough to handle 99% of development needs. My priority in buying a laptop for development would be a 17" good quality screen. Development is really a two screen task, its bad enough when you are limited to one screen, at least make that screen as big you can.

Resolution is more important than screen size imo.

irishdude11 · 13-03-2013 9:40am

lemon_remon wrote: »

Resolution is more important than screen size imo.

Bigger screen size implicitly means higher resolution. I have 1600 x 900 on my 17in which is the standard for 17in laptops. You hardly ever find this resolution on 15in laptops which have 1366 x 768 resolution as standard.

If you want a higher resolution (1920 x 1080) 15in you are looking at buying a gaming laptop which is going to set you back over a grand whereas a1600 x 900 17 can be bought for around €450.

15in are an utter pain in the whole for development once you've got used to 17in. You are always scrolling and resizing panel splitters with 15in because of the lack of space. I'd take a 17in with 4GB RAM and average processor over a 12 GB RAM 15in with an animal of a processor any day of the week!

Sparks · 13-03-2013 11:00am

irishdude11 wrote: »

Bigger screen size implicitly means higher resolution.

Er, no, it doesn't.
It should, but marketing has a hand in selling laptops, so "should" isn't something you can rely on.

Also, unless we're talking the new macbook or the pixel or anything with a resolution that high and drivers to match, you don't necessarily just want higher resolution without any regard to screen size, or it'll feel like you're trying to look at a 21-inch desktop on a 15-inch screen.

IRLConor · 13-03-2013 11:35am

Anima wrote: »

Your laptop will boot quickly

Trojan wrote: »

18 seconds from power-on to desktop-ready is just so useful.

Do you find yourselves powering off your laptops often? Mine just gets suspended/resumed all the time (2-3 secs to resume if I exclude typing time for my password). Usually the uptime is measured in weeks, so I don't really care about boot time.

Unlike Sparks, I do pretty regularly max out either RAM or CPU or both on my development machine (a MacBook Air) but I admit that some of the loads are atypical (e.g. frequent startup/teardown of multiple virtual machines). For regular Java development, this laptop is more than enough.

Anima · 13-03-2013 1:17pm

The restart speed is only a nice perk. The real benefit is application load times and moving all your development onto the SSD.

For any reasonably large C++ project, you have hundreds/thousands of relatively small files. If you've ever tried to move thousands of tiny files in Windows, you'll know it takes ages compared to moving a couple of large files because of the overhead. This is negated by the SSD's low latency random access speed which means it'll tear through the compilation much better than a SATA drive. The same could be said for Java probably.

But as Sparks pointed out, if you're doing DB / web development then this might not be as important.

However, SSDs are much cheaper now anyway. You can nearly get 1gig per euro these days so I think it will become standard soon enough. They're also better for wear and tear as there are no moving parts.

Sparks · 13-03-2013 3:39pm

Anima wrote: »

For any reasonably large C++ project, you have hundreds/thousands of relatively small files. If you've ever tried to move thousands of tiny files in Windows, you'll know it takes ages compared to moving a couple of large files because of the overhead. This is negated by the SSD's low latency random access speed which means it'll tear through the compilation much better than a SATA drive. The same could be said for Java probably.

Ugh. Use Linux and a proper filesystem and it'll be damn near instant because you're altering metadata and not actually moving anything.

However, SSDs are much cheaper now anyway. You can nearly get 1gig per euro these days so I think it will become standard soon enough.

For €215 in (say) Komplett, I can get 240Gb of SSD or 4000Gb of HDD.
SSDs definitely have a use, but I wouldn't call them cheap just yet.

They're also better for wear and tear as there are no moving parts.

What about the legendary one-year-and-then-total-failure problem?

(note: Yes, it's atwood, but no, it's actually a real problem this time, his post was just a good summary of existing work)

ChRoMe · 13-03-2013 3:54pm

Sparks wrote: »

Ugh. Use Linux and a proper filesystem and it'll be damn near instant because you're altering metadata and not actually moving anything.

For €215 in (say) Komplett, I can get 240Gb of SSD or 4000Gb of HDD.
SSDs definitely have a use, but I wouldn't call them cheap just yet.

What about the legendary one-year-and-then-total-failure problem?

(note: Yes, it's atwood, but no, it's actually a real problem this time, his post was just a good summary of existing work)

We have over 100 crucial SSDs running happily here for over a year. Also any stories I've heard of failures (well within reasonable rates) have had the drives stop writing, they still read.

YMMV etc.

Laptop for development

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