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QUINN-an evaluation.

  • 15-04-2014 1:06pm
    #1
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭


    Quinn is due to be cut this summer as Minister. He is 67/8. He was a surprising inclusion in this Government but I think fact he backed Gilmore for leadership played a hand in it. He was first in Cabinet way back in 1986.

    As Minister he has some good achievements. He was right to bring in a Literacy Program and School Self evaluation. Worthy endeavours. The Cutbacks were unavoidable in most cases.

    In terms of HR-obviously as a trade unionist he was an out and out bully but politically he won . He brought us gagged back inside. We have only ourselves to blame for that,

    In terms of the JC-he is wrong to bring us down path of marking our own pupils. I would have Kept five subjects for SEC-Irish, Maths, English Science and Geography/History (amalgamate). Fully marked by SEC. That would have provided a core for students

    What do you think a new Minister will do? Not what you want him to do-what will he do. It will be a he-probably Alex White.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Boober Fraggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Boober Fraggle


    I don't agree re school self evaluation, I see it as bureaucratic nonsense, but maybe I'm missing something.

    I think the new minister will have to backtrack on assessment of our own students. But won't be able to do it too quickly, or it will look like a slight on Quinn.

    Class sizes will remain big for the foreseeable, more money will not be pumped into snas or learning support. Something will have to be done about the current stand off with teachers on jca.


  • #3
    losullivan
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭losullivan


    Self evaluation and so-called literacy initiatives without any real financial investment has resulted in little more than box-ticking and mountains of paper work.That's been my experience of Quinn as a minister. He has consistently refused to listen to the people at the coalface and alienated those of us who genuinely care about the future of our education system.
    What will his replacement do? Nobody knows. An informed minister would stop treating the teaching profession like we're public enemy no 1 for a start. Learn from the mistakes made in the U. K., listen to those of us actually doing the job.Reduce class size and invest in essentials such as resource teaching,mental health, I.T and middle management. I won't hold my breath.


  • #4
    tricolore
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭tricolore


    I'm currently making my way through the first series of House of Cards - Education Reform and strikes ...it's interesting to watch how it all works - though i do have to keep reminding myself that this is just a tv program


  • #5
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    tricolore wrote: »
    I'm currently making my way through the first series of House of Cards - Education Reform and strikes ...it's interesting to watch how it all works - though i do have to keep reminding myself that this is just a tv program

    Between House of Cards and The Wire it is probably as close as you will get to the actual reality of the education sector.

    I think the Inspectorate and the self evaluation process is too much. The inspectorate should be phased out over the next ten years if this self evaluation shtick works the way it should. I have not heard anything from Quinn on that front.


  • #6
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    off topic though


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  • #7
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Quinn is due to be cut this summer as Minister. He is 67/8. He was a surprising inclusion in this Government but I think fact he backed Gilmore for leadership played a hand in it. He was first in Cabinet way back in 1986.

    As Minister he has some good achievements. He was right to bring in a Literacy Program and School Self evaluation. Worthy endeavours. The Cutbacks were unavoidable in most cases.

    In terms of HR-obviously as a trade unionist he was an out and out bully but politically he won . He brought us gagged back inside. We have only ourselves to blame for that,

    In terms of the JC-he is wrong to bring us down path of marking our own pupils. I would have Kept five subjects for SEC-Irish, Maths, English Science and Geography/History (amalgamate). Fully marked by SEC. That would have provided a core for students

    What do you think a new Minister will do? Not what you want him to do-what will he do. It will be a he-probably Alex White.


    I prefer to do things in my classroom rather than writing about doing things in my classroom. Now I have to waste some of my valuable free time in school (of which there is little) on useless paperwork when I could be correcting copies, photocopying, preparing chemicals for my science classes etc.
    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    off topic though


    Why? Quinn brought in time wasting self evaluation, so should we need external evaluation in the form of WSE, subject inspections and drive bys too? It's a valid question.


  • #8
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    No I was referring to house of cards!. Drive throughs are nonsense. Can I ask you what paperwork you mean? To be specific.


  • #9
    tricolore
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭tricolore


    I get the impression that Mr Quinn is a good politician and terrible minister for education - i hope my disillusion passes


  • #10
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Quinn is all spin and v little substance. School uniform survey which was a crowd pleaser but little else.despite posturing about religion in schools has done nothing. Book rental scheme launched in a blaze of PR but only available to a small no. Of schools. Literacy and numeracy strategy ; meaningless.


  • #11
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    We missed a golden opportunity to nobble this reform a month politician with HR. Now its all downhill-next guy could be worse.


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  • #12
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭doc_17


    His behaviour in the run up to the last ballot on HR was deplorable. Threatening that people would be sacked etc. A Labour Minister in name and nothing else. His legacy will not be viewed well by me or other teachers that I know. I really personally can't stand the man. SSE etc are a waste of time. It's done anyway. What did he think we did when we had school/dept meetings!

    Total bluffer.


  • #13
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    doc_17 wrote: »
    His behaviour in the run up to the last ballot on HR was deplorable. Threatening that people would be sacked etc. A Labour Minister in name and nothing else. His legacy will not be viewed well by me or other teachers that I know. I really personally can't stand the man. SSE etc are a waste of time. It's done anyway. What did he think we did when we had school/dept meetings!

    Total bluffer.

    Those ASTI members who voted for HRA let him call their bluff. Therefore, they only have themselves to blame.

    If that threat had been real, there would have been a very small number of redundancies because the only way to jeopardise the security of permanent teachers whose jobs are in line with the pupil-teacher ratio is to increase that ratio, which Quinn was unlikely to do because he would have antagonised parents if he did that.


  • #14
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    We missed a golden opportunity to nobble this reform a month politician with HR. Now its all downhill-next guy could be worse.
    Who says that it's over?! Signing up to HRA does not mean forsaking the right to take industrial action.

    If secondary teacher continue to refuse to implement the JCSA assessment system then the Department would have to arrange for an alternative form of assessment because to leave pupils without examinations at the end of Junior Cycle would lead to it being subject to as much anger from parents as the unions would be, i.e. "a plague on both your houses".

    If the Department imposes sanctions on secondary teachers then they can react by withdrawing co-operation with inspectors and pulling the plug on the CPA/HRA hours.

    The current industrial action will have a meaningful effect without causing major disruption to pupils because it means that the optional courses, e.g. cloud computing, would not take place.


  • #15
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Book rental scheme launched in a blaze of PR but only available to a small no. Of schools.
    The new rental scheme is concentrated on schools who do not have enough pupils from impoverished backgrounds to justify the schools already having their own schemes, thus targeting the resources where they are needed most. That is more effective than spreading the resources thinly, which would be the case if the new scheme included schools who already have a rental scheme.


  • #16
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I prefer to do things in my classroom rather than writing about doing things in my classroom. Now I have to waste some of my valuable free time in school (of which there is little) on useless paperwork when I could be correcting copies, photocopying, preparing chemicals for my science classes etc.

    Then why did the teachers unions accept HRA? The compulsory redundancies that Quinn threatened to implement applied only to teachers whose jobs were surplus to the pupil-teacher ratio, i.e. a small minority of union members.


  • #17
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    endakenny wrote: »
    The new rental scheme is concentrated on schools who do not have enough pupils from impoverished backgrounds to justify the schools already having their own schemes, thus targeting the resources where they are needed most. That is more effective than spreading the resources thinly, which would be the case if the new scheme included schools who already have a rental scheme.
    So schools and their communities that fundraised non-stop to pay for rental schemes are to be punished and you agree? Impoverished students don't all go to DEIS schools.


  • #18
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    So schools and their communities that fundraised non-stop to pay for rental schemes are to be punished and you agree? Impoverished students don't all go to DEIS schools.

    It's not as simple as agreeing or disagreeing and it's not a question or either rewarding or punishing any school or community. Not every school has enough parents willing to take part in such a scheme. The scheme is designed to help impoverished families at these schools. Therefore, the scheme will help impoverished pupils who don't go to DEIS schools.


    All schools are still getting the annual book grant of €11 per child.

    Here's an update.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/book-rental-scheme-to-include-all-primary-schools-1.1765102


  • #19
    chippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

    In terms of the JC-he is wrong to bring us down path of marking our own pupils. I would have Kept five subjects for SEC-Irish, Maths, English Science and Geography/History (amalgamate). Fully marked by SEC. That would have provided a core for students

    Two totally different subjects and they should be kept separate.


  • #20
    teacherhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    chippers wrote: »
    Two totally different subjects and they should be kept separate.

    And neither should necessarily be core subjects...


  • #21
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    chippers wrote: »
    Two totally different subjects and they should be kept separate.


    and a language considering all of the multinationals operating out of Ireland and our membership of the EU and right to work in EU countries?


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  • #22
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    vamos! wrote: »
    and a language considering all of the multinationals operating out of Ireland and our membership of the EU and right to work in EU countries?

    Meant to replay to Mr White's post quoted by chippers- don't know what went wrong with quoting


  • #23
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    endakenny wrote: »
    It's not as simple as agreeing or disagreeing and it's not a question or either rewarding or punishing any school or community. Not every school has enough parents willing to take part in such a scheme. The scheme is designed to help impoverished families at these schools. Therefore, the scheme will help impoverished pupils who don't go to DEIS schools.


    All schools are still getting the annual book grant of €11 per child.

    Here's an update.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/book-rental-scheme-to-include-all-primary-schools-1.1765102

    Wow, a whole €11, it might cover the cost of one English reader. It's pure spin and you know it.


  • #24
    tvnutz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭tvnutz


    teacherhead wrote: »
    And neither should necessarily be core subjects...

    Both should be core ahead of Irish in my opinion...but then that goes and opens up a can of worms and leads to endless arguments.


  • #25
    phish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭phish


    thoughts on this ?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-grades-face-radical-change-under-plan-1.1768499


  • #26
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    phish wrote: »
    thoughts on this ?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-grades-face-radical-change-under-plan-1.1768499

    I started a thread in the Leaving Cert sub-forum: Proposal to reform Leaving Cert grading. Would be great if we could keep all discussion together :)


  • #27
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    I started a thread in the Leaving Cert sub-forum: Proposal to reform Leaving Cert grading. Would be great if we could keep all discussion together :)

    Would be nice if you didn't dictate to the teachers on the forum where they should be posting about teaching related issues.


  • #28
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Would be nice if you didn't dictate to the teachers on the forum where they should be posting about teaching related issues.

    You are such an unpleasant character! On multiple occasions, now, you have been the instigator of ill-feeling between us. I was not "dictating". Merely informing that I had begun a thread, which was somewhat developed, and suggesting that having two separate discussions on the same topic would be undesirable.

    Do as you please.

    EDIT: The above bolded sentence is in no way permitted on this forum. Personal abuse will not be tolerated.


  • #29
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    You are such an unpleasant character! On multiple occasions, now, you have been the instigator of ill-feeling between us. I was not "dictating". Merely informing that I had begun a thread, which was somewhat developed, and suggesting that having two separate discussions on the same topic would be undesirable.

    Do as you please.

    Nope. Teachers post about teaching related issues in this forum. The Leaving Cert forum is primarily for students and while teachers do post in there, myself being one of them it is usually in response to a student query.

    Personal abuse isn't tolerated on the forum either. Or maybe you haven't read the charter.


  • #30
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Warning given for personal abuse. Please report posts and do not backseat moderate.


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  • #31
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    While it is nice to see the Leaving Cert forum discuss the article, teachers are perfectly entitled to discuss it here though do bear in mind the topic of the OP which is an evaluation of Quinn.


  • #32
    phish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭phish


    I was merely pointing ti out as another proposal from Quinn. It all adds up in the evaluation of his time.


  • #33
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    phish wrote: »
    I was merely pointing ti out as another proposal from Quinn. It all adds up in the evaluation of his time.

    It was not a proposal "from Quinn"; it was to the DE.


  • #34
    teacherhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    All very narky on here today. Ye must be missing school! If it bothers you all that much just start a new thread and get over yourselves.


  • #35
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    phish wrote: »
    I was merely pointing ti out as another proposal from Quinn. It all adds up in the evaluation of his time.

    Just another part of his 'legacy'. I can't see how this will improve things. Subdivisions of grades were brought in in the early 90s to alleviate the problems of so many students having the same grades/points for college entry.

    Getting As or H1s as is proposed under this system will become all the more important for the high points courses : medicine, dentistry, pharmacy etc as those in the A2 and B1 brackets will now be lumped in together.


  • #36
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    "It was introduced in 1992 at the request of higher education institutions amid concerns at the increased use of random selection in admissions.
    While the reform will inevitably result in a higher number of college places allocated by lottery, the export group stresses that the Leaving Cert should not be seen solely as a selection tool for higher education. The steering group, comprising education stakeholders and governing agencies, is also trying to promote broader entry routes to third level amid concerns that the explosion in increasingly specialised course options over the past decade has escalated the points race."

    I think this is the part that is important particularly the two parts in bold. Quinn set up this group. He wants rid of the points system and this is a way to start it without it appearing like he is


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  • #37
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    I started a thread in the Leaving Cert sub-forum: Proposal to reform Leaving Cert grading. Would be great if we could keep all discussion together :)

    I would post there but I would be afraid of you calling my post "dim" as you did to a student in the LC forum.

    There was a quote from RQs fly on the wall piece on RTE a few years ago about wanting to leave a legacy. I personally think he is more interested in this than he is in actual meaningful reform.

    In one of the ASTI publications there were two columns side by side about the new JC
    One listed the NCCA recommendations, right beside listed what Quinn actually decided, they were not even close on most parts, so to me he can pretend he is doing things from a solid base but in reality hes doing things that he wants to do without the real backing of those in the know.


  • #38
    jam17032010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83 ✭✭jam17032010


    seavill wrote: »
    In one of the ASTI publications there were two columns side by side about the new JC
    One listed the NCCA recommendations, right beside listed what Quinn actually decided, they were not even close on most parts, so to me he can pretend he is doing things from a solid base but in reality hes doing things that he wants to do without the real backing of those in the know.
    I wouldn't put "NCCA" and "those in the know" in the same sentence.


  • #39
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    jam17032010 wrote: »
    I wouldn't put "NCCA" and "those in the know" in the same sentence.

    I'd certainly put them miles ahead of RQ in knowledge about education matters, and being a group of people it's not about one person's ego


  • #40
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Just another part of his 'legacy'. I can't see how this will improve things. Subdivisions of grades were brought in in the early 90s to alleviate the problems of so many students having the same grades/points for college entry.

    Getting As or H1s as is proposed under this system will become all the more important for the high points courses : medicine, dentistry, pharmacy etc as those in the A2 and B1 brackets will now be lumped in together.

    True.. Itll just end up being random selection alllllll over again rather than highest points gets the prize.

    Although it has started a bit of a debate about how universities need to get their act together in terms of how they run their 1st year courses.


  • #41
    jam17032010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83 ✭✭jam17032010


    seavill wrote: »
    I'd certainly put them miles ahead of RQ in knowledge about education matters, and being a group of people it's not about one person's ego

    True. But when a minister makes a stupid decision we know who to blame and they will have to face the electorate at the next election*. When the NCCA make a stupid decision we don't know who made it and that person is not accountable.

    * I realise that this does not apply to Quinn as he will probably ride off into the sunset with a big fat pension after the next election but the Labour party will certainly suffer for their roles in governement.


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  • #42
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Actually the research has put pay to Quinn's claims that we are exclusively teaching to the exam by predicting solutions.

    "The group, set up a year ago by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, has also been examining the extent of problematic predictability in the Leaving Cert exams whereby teachers and students can second- guess papers. The Oxford University Centre for Educational Assessment was commissioned to assess the problem. It indicated “that no subject was considered to be very problematically predictable overall” although some concerns were identified."

    I think the baby is being thrown out with the bath water by Ruairi Quinn. Sure we do exam papers but there is learning still taking place.


  • #43
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Actually the research has put pay to Quinn's claims that we are exclusively teaching to the exam by predicting solutions.

    "The group, set up a year ago by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, has also been examining the extent of problematic predictability in the Leaving Cert exams whereby teachers and students can second- guess papers. The Oxford University Centre for Educational Assessment was commissioned to assess the problem. It indicated “that no subject was considered to be very problematically predictable overall” although some concerns were identified."

    I think the baby is being thrown out with the bath water by Ruairi Quinn. Sure we do exam papers but there is learning still taking place.

    Yea that exactly backs up my point, RQ has his ideas on what he wants to do regardless of what research says and he will put whatever spin he needs to achieve this, the research isn't there to back up what he wants to do but he ploughs ahead anyway


  • #44
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Actually the research has put pay to Quinn's claims that we are exclusively teaching to the exam by predicting solutions.

    "The group, set up a year ago by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, has also been examining the extent of problematic predictability in the Leaving Cert exams whereby teachers and students can second- guess papers. The Oxford University Centre for Educational Assessment was commissioned to assess the problem. It indicated “that no subject was considered to be very problematically predictable overall” although some concerns were identified."

    I think the baby is being thrown out with the bath water by Ruairi Quinn. Sure we do exam papers but there is learning still taking place.

    This article gives a more thorough summary of the study you mention: No major concerns over predictability of exams | Irish Examiner


  • #45
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    This article gives a more thorough summary of the study you mention: No major concerns over predictability of exams | Irish Examiner

    Btw, IMO, even if the LC isn't predictable, the fact that it is thought to be could have detrimental consequences on the learning experience of students.


  • #46
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    Btw, IMO, even if the LC isn't predictable, the fact that it is thought to be could have detrimental consequences on the learning experience of students.

    How?


  • #47
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    Btw, IMO, even if the LC isn't predictable, the fact that it is thought to be could have detrimental consequences on the learning experience of students.

    Well look, any teacher who says specifically x,y or z is going to come up in the exam is a fool. You have to teach the curriculum first and foremost. Any student I have ever taught, knows that asking me what's coming up is pointless.


  • #48
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    What if you know the topic IS coming up.
    In my subject, Ecology comes up every year & is worth between 60-80 marks out of 400.
    I make sure my students know it inside out.


  • #49
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    What if you know the topic IS coming up.
    In my subject, Ecology comes up every year & is worth between 60-80 marks out of 400.
    I make sure my students know it inside out.

    And equally there are topics that are examined every year (in my course genetics). In chemistry, organic chemistry and students don't bother their arses to learn them and/or avoid them like the plague.

    Predicatability doesn't mean that a teacher will teach to the exam or a student will learn those specific topics.


  • #50
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Yeah, I agree.
    Organic Chem, and a great understanding of it can be a huge asset when trying to get the A1 & it's guaranteed 3 questions out of 8


  • #51
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    Yeah, I agree.
    Organic Chem, and a great understanding of it can be a huge asset when trying to get the A1 & it's guaranteed 3 questions out of 8

    or if you were my brother getting a D3 by only learning org chem and abandoning the rest of the course :pac:


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