Pre 1900 farmhouse floors query!

EJ Aza · 04-08-2015 12:07pm #1

Hi All,

In the midst of renovating the old farmhouse I bought late last year and have a query over the downstairs floors. If I could get some opinions it would be great.

Current situation - looks like poured concrete with a plastic membrane.

We have been removing the 'new' chimney to reveal the old, absolutely massive inglenook fireplace which is nearly the width of the house. I had spent awhile taking the bricks out with the kango and himself finished kangoing it yesterday eve. When I was removing the rubble at the back it is down to just soil. I haven't done a spot test yet to check concrete depth in other areas.

So question is should we
1. Dig up old concrete floor, start from scratch?
2. Add a new membrane, a layer of insulation and pour 3-4 inches?

We have the head height I think nearly 2.8m of it (will need to double check).

The other query is that the house is rubble built. We are renovating with breathable materials including lime plaster and mortar. For the floors is there anything we can do or is concrete OK?

Thanks so much,
Em

BryanF · 04-08-2015 12:21pm

It shocks me how many old buildings are renovated and an engineer / conservation architect are not consulted.

Honestly I don't think there is any part of your post that can be answered without a site assessment

There was another poster a few days ago that had an old cottage and was in a similar position and was looking at hemplime and breathable construction

EJ Aza · 04-08-2015 1:03pm

BryanF wrote: »

It shocks me how many old buildings are renovated and an engineer / conservation architect are not consulted.

Honestly I don't think there is any part of your post that can be answered without a site assessment

There was another poster a few days ago that had an old cottage and was in a similar position and was looking at hemplime and breathable construction

Thank you Brian, we have help and advice from a guy who is very widely respected in conservation of old builds and also listed protected buildings. I was just looking to add others opinions and advice.

I had previously posted about internal insulation and we our mid way through doing upstairs, isover 150mm, 62.5mm board etc between and on rafters. Slightly less on external walls.

We are putting in a french drain around the property. Even though luckily the property is pretty dry.

I am not asking for a definitive 'how to' in respect to a single property just trying to glean advice and others experience. Maybe what they have tried, what is possibly the easiest and or most appropriate. We have so far managed to get much advice on insulation etc and have tailored it to our own needs and I have found it very helpful.

Thanks for the reply.

Chisler2 · 05-08-2015 3:03am

EJ Aza wrote: »

Hi All,

In the midst of renovating the old farmhouse I bought late last year and have a query over the downstairs floors. If I could get some opinions it would be great.

Current situation - looks like poured concrete with a plastic membrane.

We have been removing the 'new' chimney to reveal the old, absolutely massive inglenook fireplace which is nearly the width of the house. I had spent awhile taking the bricks out with the kango and himself finished kangoing it yesterday eve. When I was removing the rubble at the back it is down to just soil. I haven't done a spot test yet to check concrete depth in other areas.

So question is should we
1. Dig up old concrete floor, start from scratch?
2. Add a new membrane, a layer of insulation and pour 3-4 inches?

We have the head height I think nearly 2.8m of it (will need to double check).

The other query is that the house is rubble built. We are renovating with breathable materials including lime plaster and mortar. For the floors is there anything we can do or is concrete OK?

Thanks so much,
Em

Maith Thu on doing the right thing by a vernacular cottage! You will get the full benefit of using breathable, self-healing lime-technology if you renovate consistently, so conventional concrete floor is unlikely to compliment lime-mortar. You could discuss insulating with LECA beads with a layer of lime screed over.

EJ Aza · 05-08-2015 8:38am

Chisler2 wrote: »

Maith Thu on doing the right thing by a vernacular cottage! You will get the full benefit of using breathable, self-healing lime-technology if you renovate consistently, so conventional concrete floor is unlikely to compliment lime-mortar. You could discuss insulating with LECA beads with a layer of lime screed over.

Excellent thank you for this, it is what I was thinking but haven't looked too much into it as hadn't been planning to take up the floors till we started to take back and reveal the inglenook.

Will start taking it up this week.... It is the only room that isn't totally dry and it's because someone used concrete on the external walls inside the house (which we also need to chip off).

I will look into the LECA beads. It can be hard to get information as most builders insist on concrete and non breathable materials etc working just as well, luckily this is mostly DIY so am doing it as much as I can to keep it how it should be.

I'll post a few photos if anyone is interested.

EJ Aza · 05-08-2015 2:30pm

I have just seen the post on the old cottage, thanks Bryan, it didn't show up when I google searched before I posted this thread.

Chisler2 · 05-08-2015 7:15pm

EJ Aza wrote: »

Excellent thank you for this, it is what I was thinking but haven't looked too much into it as hadn't been planning to take up the floors till we started to take back and reveal the inglenook.

Will start taking it up this week.... It is the only room that isn't totally dry and it's because someone used concrete on the external walls inside the house (which we also need to chip off).

I will look into the LECA beads. It can be hard to get information as most builders insist on concrete and non breathable materials etc working just as well, luckily this is mostly DIY so am doing it as much as I can to keep it how it should be.

I'll post a few photos if anyone is interested.

Photos would be interesting! Unfortunately practitioners of the old technology are now long dead and building contractors accustomed to conventional modern builds insist on using/adding cement and impermeable membranes which disrupt the lime-and-stone breathable system which - as you are finding - is labour-intensive. Happily there is a resurgence of interest in like-for-like use of lime in recent years. As posting contact-details is against the forum charter I can P.M. you sources of expertise, information and materials.

EJ Aza · 06-08-2015 1:48pm

Chisler2 wrote: »

Photos would be interesting! Unfortunately practitioners of the old technology are now long dead and building contractors accustomed to conventional modern builds insist on using/adding cement and impermeable membranes which disrupt the lime-and-stone breathable system which - as you are finding - is labour-intensive. Happily there is a resurgence of interest in like-for-like use of lime in recent years. As posting contact-details is against the forum charter I can P.M. you sources of expertise, information and materials.

Yes please that would be fantastic!
I can't post photos etc as haven't posted enough.

EJ Aza · 19-08-2015 8:33am

Concrete is up! Now the digging down needs to be started....

The glulam beam is being prepared to go in too from the inglenook to the other middle wall downstairs so we can move the stairs. Cannot wait for us to get it in.

Went a bit 'mad' and removed the kitchen floor too, thank God we did as the concrete was so wet. Removed all the dry lining to discover concrete behind it too - ugh.

There is concrete render on the outside of the house we need to remove it all but won't have the time or money til next year. Would it be possible to take off a section and would it help? I have noticed that removal of even the smallest bit of concrete inside helps. The wall is south facing and the wind whips up the valley and onto this wall, there is a crack in the concrete render which is I imagine why the kitchen is so wet.

Thanks

EJ Aza · 23-08-2015 8:24am

Over 4m wide inglenook revealed

mel o · 23-08-2015 4:58pm

Stunning, Em. That'll be some feature! I'm following with interest as we have an 1800s house too that when we have money we'll do something with. Thankfully, no one did anything to it to modernise it so there's no undoing to do. Chipping off that concrete must be painful!

mel o · 23-08-2015 5:14pm

Stunning, Em. That'll be some feature! I'm following with interest as we have an 1800s house too that when we have money we'll do something with. Thankfully, no one did anything to it to modernise it so there's no undoing to do. Chipping off that concrete must be painful!

neverfinished · 23-08-2015 6:45pm

We are in the middle of doing something similar too. We have finished removing internal plaster and have one gable on the outside to complete. We haven't even contemplated what we will do with the floor. I'm enjoying following this.

OldHouse · 24-08-2015 8:36am

EJ Aza wrote: »

Over 4m wide inglenook revealed

The picture looks great.

I have a similar problem Re oldcottage tread. And I'm thinking of using the Recycled Foamed Glass Gravel with Limecrete floor. Don't think I'm going to run with the underfloor heating. Still have some work to do on getting all the floors up and stripping back the stone walls.

EJ Aza · 24-08-2015 5:20pm

OldHouse wrote: »

The picture looks great.

I have a similar problem Re oldcottage tread. And I'm thinking of using the Recycled Foamed Glass Gravel with Limecrete floor. Don't think I'm going to run with the underfloor heating. Still have some work to do on getting all the floors up and stripping back the stone walls.

Would you mind giving me some info re your current research on the flooring? Preferably we want a breathable one. Haven't had a chance to look into it or price it yet. Even though we have pulled ours up. Working full time is hindering research and sometimes asking questions on this by the looks of posts I have read gets more smart remarks than being helpful. I am only looking for advice not definitives. Trying to do the best by an old building as I can with the usual budget and time restraints.

Working 16 days straight so didn't get the beam in but I have a photo of all 5.2m of it.... Pre the first treatment. This will go between the two middle supporting walls in the house (One is the inglenook wall) and will be left exposed.

EJ Aza · 24-08-2015 5:26pm

Glulam beam.

OldHouse · 28-08-2015 10:53am

I haven't done as much as I should but I am vering towards the Recycled glass option as opposed to Hemcrete only suitable on very dry sites and the LECA (Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate) option. All of which is finished with a Limecrete screed. The Recyled Foam glass option has very similar U-Value but appears to have superior compression strength which I need as I'm going putting in a structural stud to the inside of the walls supporting the new first floor Joists.

I will pm you some links to articles that I have found usefull.

JonathonS · 31-08-2015 11:29am

You might find something useful in this blog:

https://limewindow.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/a-floor-that-breathes/

EJ Aza · 16-01-2016 11:54pm

So we were away for a bit and had the floors dug out before we left.

We have done more and more research and have decided that a concrete floor with a dimple plastic membrane might work for us. With all the rain, we came back to our house with 2 ft dug out floors and no water and no more dampness then when we left end of Nov. This is before we have even put in a French drain. We have heard that some breathable floors end up being taken back up due to drying out issues over a few years. We are starting to put our washed cut limestone in and will research further until we are ready for the deciding layer.

Not sure if anyone else has looked into this method?

Chisler2 · 17-01-2016 3:49am

EJ Aza wrote: »

So we were away for a bit and had the floors dug out before we left.

We have done more and more research and have decided that a concrete floor with a dimple plastic membrane might work for us. With all the rain, we came back to our house with 2 ft dug out floors and no water and no more dampness then when we left end of Nov. This is before we have even put in a French drain. We have heard that some breathable floors end up being taken back up due to drying out issues over a few years. We are starting to put our washed cut limestone in and will research further until we are ready for the deciding layer.

Not sure if anyone else has looked into this method?

EmmaJane I would appreciate the link (or PM me!) to the drying-out of LECA and glaupor system and kudos to you in making judgements based on experience and research rather than received orthodoxy. Your remarks about the French drain are helpful to me. My 250+ year-old cottage was constructed by forebears who understood the technology and did not build to be flooded so they built "into" a 45 degree sloping mountainside. The cottage is as dry as a bone.............but nevertheless building contractors INSIST on the necessity of pea-gravel "French drains" (at great expense) into what is a shale, well-drained site!!!! I am off to look up "washed cut limestone".............Bannach Dea air an obair!

EJ Aza · 18-01-2016 11:26am

Tá brón orm Chisler that I do not know the name of the exact stone, we bought what was recommended to us by the company in Youghal who have been more than helpful. It is 3-4 inch pieces of washed stone which was preferable to insert for base level as advised by them and the company in Carlow; both who we met with and had long discussions with. (I presume we cannot add in names here?) Here is also a link to the clean cut limestone which as you can see is washed https://limewindow.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/a-floor-that-breathes/

As the surrounding land is very wet, even the garden is mossy and boggy, yes we were surprised that as we lowered the floor level so much it was no damper than when we left with all the rain that apparently occurred in December.

As stated in the post we are looking into this method, which was surprisingly to some mentioned by one of the companies above while of course the other is staunchly against it (they are also against using Geocell or any recycled glass instead of LECA).

With regard to drying times, I have discussed with a builder who renovates old buildings and uses breathable systems in walls etc. Websites also point that limecrete hardens over months. I would presume that any issue with the limecrete system would be down to not laying the floor or using the layers appropriately (please note this is my *unresearched* presumption) as a lot of limecrete floors work well from other reviews. However I am still looking into all options!

I thought the aim of this board was to be helpful, offer up ideas, review new methods and obtain a system that fits for you, it seems as though people here don't read a full post and responses come across very condescending which not only is not helpful but also reduces the opportunity to share ideas and talk about options. Apologies in advance if this was not the case but this is how it reads to me

Pre 1900 farmhouse floors query!

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