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Cashless buses - the way forward?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    coylemj wrote: »
    Really can't see the relevance of what Tfl is doing in London. Over there the vast majority of tourists journeys on public transport are on the tube and there are cash machines and manned (personned?) ticket desks in every tube station. You see very few tourists on the standard London buses so if they stopped taking cash it would have very little effect given that the vast majority of Londoners (and frequent visitors like me) have Oyster cards.

    Going cashless in Dublin would seriously affect tourists and casual weekend travellers like the people you'd see getting on the 46A in Stillorgan going to the RDS or the Aviva for matches, most of them pay cash and very few of them know the fares so they slow the bus up big time fumbling with coins. Being completely selfish and armed with my Travel90 and Leap cards, I would love it if Dublin bus stopped taking cash because it would speed things up but I can't see it happening here for a while yet.

    Casual weekend travellers on London buses and the tube manage to buy Oyster cards, so it won't be too hard for our casual weekend travellers to find one of the 700 locations where you can pick up a Leap card. Look at placing a few TVMs at least along highly used QBCs or just do as the RPA did at the start and have staff sign people up to Leap at busier stops -- this can be done on match days etc to start with.

    Run a large ad campain, and get the AA etc to give warnings before and on the day of the major matches or other events in the first 6 months after going cashless.

    As for tourists -- put TVMs with Leap pre-loaded with 1/2/5/7 day tickets at Dublin airport, Dublin port, O'Connel Street, Dame Street, train stations etc. And also sell them in tourists card packs (as Amsterdam etc does) and at tourist offices and hotels etc.

    For both groups, if needs be, expand the 700 Leap sales locations.

    The relevance of what London is doing is that we also have cost and time issues around handling cash and the way to fix that is to phase cash out even if that upsets some people.

    Beforehand, the difference between card and cash fares will still have to climb and more products will have to be added to Leap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Cashless buses with multiple doors is definitely the future.

    It would need way more inspectors, and on-street ticket machines though
    Ah, so it's more labour-intensive and more machine-intensive than past modes of fare collection. More police-state-intensive too, what with inspectors basically needing a level of police powers and more police officers needed to keep vandals from destroying ticket machines.

    And more doors on vehicles = fewer seats and higher maintenance costs. What about that would attract a driver out of his/her car?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 629 ✭✭✭thisisadamh


    Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Cashless buses with multiple doors is definitely the future.

    It would need way more inspectors, and on-street ticket machines though.
    It works in many sites I been to. It also works on the luas in dublin.

    In Rome there is a small machine on buses to get a single bus ticket. The bus driver do not have any interaction with it. Most people there get weekly, monthly, etc tickets for public transport and validate it on the bus with the machines on the bus. Some cites have large fines for failing to have a €2 ticket or failing to validate it when they get onto the bus. I see similar things in other cites on my travels. They have multiples doors and the driver, well just drives, and not worry about non-paying fares.

    Only here in Ireland I see cash on very little doors on buses compare to our European neighbors, yet I am surprise there is not more robberies on buses for easy access to cash even small change. I see more people in Ireland who will try to get anything for free than else where or how to screw the system which the rest of us will have to pay for it with rises in our tickets costs.

    Leap card and bus cards, etc is the way forwards with surprise inspections with our current bus inspectors with fines for having no valid ticket with much higher fines. It should not be up to the driver to check tickets. They already have enough hassle on a daily basis. It will also save on costs with less attacks on bus drivers with security costs, medical costs for drivers, damage costs and courts costs, police costs, administration costs.

    Most people have bank/credit cards to pay for tickets at machines and lots of machines take cash at designated areas which well frankly most of us knows how to use, while some albeit slowly use them and complain at it for there own ignorance and lack of competence to use machines.
    Some buses have single coins machine for tickets, which are more expensive for single trips.
    In some cites, you can pay at the end of the journey, if there is no working machine where you got on.

    When I travel to other cites, the first thing I get is a public transport ticket to cover the period that I am there whenever it a tourist card or the same card the locals pay for. No need to look for cash after that, just display the ticket when needed. Some times there is not need to get the ticket out after validating such as Berlin, or Posnan/Gdansk when there last summer for the Euros.
    On those days the match ticket cover for the day public transport.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,489 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.

    7,500 Dublin Bus stops. 5,000 bus Éireann stops. At a minimum of a few hundred euros a pop - add for electrical supplies and data connections.

    Hmmmm :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    MGWR wrote: »
    Ah, so it's more labour-intensive and more machine-intensive than past modes of fare collection. More police-state-intensive too, what with inspectors basically needing a level of police powers and more police officers needed to keep vandals from destroying ticket machines.

    And more doors on vehicles = fewer seats and higher maintenance costs. What about that would attract a driver out of his/her car?

    No more machine intensive. Ticket machines will just be moved out of the buses.

    No more labour intensive either. Currently, it takes an age for buses to empty out and fill again at bus stops, it is easily the no.1 cause of delay for Dublin bus. Faster buses means less drivers needed, so spare capacity for conductors.

    Vandalism is a total non-issue, there is already a no cash on board public transport system in Dublin, and it is by far the most frequent, reliable and popular system we have. Only busy bus stops would need ticket machines anyway, people can buy bus tickets in the local shop instead, just like now.

    The loss of seats is a total non-issue. Dublin bus is not in trouble because of a lack of seats on its bus, it is in trouble because of slow, unreliable bus services that are losing customers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.
    Victor wrote: »
    7,500 Dublin Bus stops. 5,000 bus Éireann stops. At a minimum of a few hundred euros a pop - add for electrical supplies and data connections.

    Hmmmm :)
    You do not need to tag off the bus with the leap card, Just tag when getting on. There is no limit on the range when getting on the bus unlike DART and LUAS.

    Leap cards can be used on all Dublin Bus.
    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=OnQvufA5%2bpaGDmGnJ469Y4n7CGgqVk14vkNjstlwnBEljpF0%2f1d1QRVDsblX%2fuAKbjTatbXqKp29FdyjcSi5%2fgNkil3lOwc9Pi9i120%2fvXJSYR%2fio2DoMsdSM4bU7A1Ww9UQITOBMNIK0PXnlUZgHmAqbOFX2Fv3J0Kw6V15%2b2c%3d

    Leap card can be topped up not just at ticket machines but online and at various shops.

    http://www.payzone.ie/paywithpayzone.jsp
    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=buhw25pm2KOs3pnHlI74iSHDdO4YNZQx%2bFI5QL%2fiXy7vv%2fxEYFS3Ov4F%2b5yYHE3msxYbZl%2b4V1MSZWRT4fmeka5r%2bUhY07tqQUTHx67mh9DDeZsEvmxK2ylTSBWr6XTPFtv%2bXwYxSalP9yFdO7Irq0C%2bmdteSAteRihAkmu6FrQ%3d

    I believe bus Éireann in Cork city bus will accept the leap card also. I hope Bus Éireann in Limerick city bus will accept it too soon.
    http://corkindependent.com/20130606/news/leap-cards-for-cork-S66653.html

    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=XypAp%2fBYmTQFS7Jg0n4hcped9kC%2fg0i3FSLBGVbpQJVNde%2fY8Y1Y1YqIZ%2bgTKG6VKkFLql0%2b59sXPkbM8s%2bjiY4D7HiQDfJpC9Zp%2fZLemERbKFbPSJWdVtkS1uLSoFN7bgcnuSoh%2fc%2bb03g7yslffDrD%2fGVc67yzY6uWhs5noAI%3d

    I have a Leap card as I do not have to wait behind anyone at a ticket machine who is clueless in how to use it or the machine is not working. I waste a lot of time on ticket machines purchasing tickets and I am annoyed when I miss the DART or LUAS because of unnecessary delays. The other thing, I have to keep reminding myself to tag off otherwise I am charge full journey rather than the short hop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.
    I agree with this. But we need to get away from the driver in checking tickets and taking money and concentrate more of their attention on driving. We need to move to a European version of public transport.
    Most buses have CCTV cameras. Inspectors can see if there is repeated offenders and then move to that area and get those individuals, especially if they are regulars and take them to court for non-payment of fares. In reality just like now they will always be those who will abuse the system, no system is full proof. Luas is similar to the European version of public transport but with far more inspectors or personnel here asking to show tickets. On all my years of travels, I never been asked in other countries to show my public transport ticket unlike here in Ireland where it is a regular occurrence especially at match times. Only private transport and long distance travel have ask me for my ticket.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    limklad wrote: »
    You do not need to tag off the bus with the leap card, Just tag when getting on. There is no limit on the range when getting on the bus unlike DART and LUAS.

    Leap cards can be used on all Dublin Bus.
    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=OnQvufA5%2bpaGDmGnJ469Y4n7CGgqVk14vkNjstlwnBEljpF0%2f1d1QRVDsblX%2fuAKbjTatbXqKp29FdyjcSi5%2fgNkil3lOwc9Pi9i120%2fvXJSYR%2fio2DoMsdSM4bU7A1Ww9UQITOBMNIK0PXnlUZgHmAqbOFX2Fv3J0Kw6V15%2b2c%3d

    Leap card can be topped up not just at ticket machines but online and at various shops.

    http://www.payzone.ie/paywithpayzone.jsp
    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=buhw25pm2KOs3pnHlI74iSHDdO4YNZQx%2bFI5QL%2fiXy7vv%2fxEYFS3Ov4F%2b5yYHE3msxYbZl%2b4V1MSZWRT4fmeka5r%2bUhY07tqQUTHx67mh9DDeZsEvmxK2ylTSBWr6XTPFtv%2bXwYxSalP9yFdO7Irq0C%2bmdteSAteRihAkmu6FrQ%3d

    I believe bus Éireann in Cork city bus will accept the leap card also. I hope Bus Éireann in Limerick city bus will accept it too soon.
    http://corkindependent.com/20130606/news/leap-cards-for-cork-S66653.html

    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=XypAp%2fBYmTQFS7Jg0n4hcped9kC%2fg0i3FSLBGVbpQJVNde%2fY8Y1Y1YqIZ%2bgTKG6VKkFLql0%2b59sXPkbM8s%2bjiY4D7HiQDfJpC9Zp%2fZLemERbKFbPSJWdVtkS1uLSoFN7bgcnuSoh%2fc%2bb03g7yslffDrD%2fGVc67yzY6uWhs5noAI%3d

    I have a Leap card as I do not have to wait behind anyone at a ticket machine who is clueless in how to use it or the machine is not working. I waste a lot of time on ticket machines purchasing tickets and I am annoyed when I miss the DART or LUAS because of unnecessary delays. The other thing, I have to keep reminding myself to tag off otherwise I am charge full journey rather than the short hop.

    You clearly don't understand the system as currently operates, if you tag on at the side smart card reader you will be charged the full maximum fare no matter where you board or how far you travel. If you want to pay less than full fare you queue up and the driver charges whatever fare you want to your leap card.
    That is why there is no tag off on DB, someone suggested a pay by distance travelled model which would require tagging on and off.
    The only way a just tag on and the quickest most efficient way is a flat fare across the board.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    monument wrote: »
    Casual weekend travellers on London buses and the tube manage to buy Oyster cards, so it won't be too hard for our casual weekend travellers to find one of the 700 locations where you can pick up a Leap card. .

    with minimum Leap card fare of €10 it's not really useful to someone who may be in the city for one weekend and will only use the bus once or twice.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    with minimum Leap card fare of €10 it's not really useful to someone who may be in the city for one weekend and will only use the bus once or twice.

    Agreed,I believe that the enthusiastic Leapcard conversions are now exhausted,whether switching from a CIE Smart Product or Purchasing cold.

    Notwithstanding the next phase of period pass additions,that 50% Cash Paying rump has not been meaningfully challenged by Leap.

    I am currently seeing around a 10-20% daily use of Leap vs Other Pre-Paid modes,which I see as a pretty awful figure.

    The Cash Payers I interact with on a daily basis are generally staunchly anti-Leap for a great many reasons from Ignorance to Misinformation-Lack of Information and even worse,mistrust.

    Thus far,Leapcard do not appear to be recognising the need for it's core product to be far more Out-There and be seen to be available almost as an afterthought....

    The €10 initial spend is now also a valid reason NOT to go Leap in may peoples minds...I would suggest that the NTA needs to deploy some serious marketing muscle before it's too late ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭defrule


    In Hong Kong we have Octopus cards that work on any transport and good number of stores. I was there when they still had queues for ticket machines over a decade ago, the Octopus card has completely changed transport and made it so efficient and quick.

    My friend marvelled at it because it puts even London's transport to shame.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I would suggest that the NTA needs to deploy some serious marketing muscle before it's too late ?

    I don't think the NTA should market Leap until all the functionality has been rolled out and more importantly all the issues with Leap have been fixed on Dublin Bus.

    In particular I don't think they should do anything until either flat fares or touch on/touch off is introduced on Dublin Bus and then they can relaunch Leap and market the hell out of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    monument wrote: »
    <snip>
    As for tourists -- put TVMs with Leap pre-loaded with 1/2/5/7 day tickets at Dublin airport, Dublin port, O'Connel Street, Dame Street, train stations etc. And also sell them in tourists card packs (as Amsterdam etc does) and at tourist offices and hotels etc.
    <snip>
    what is a "Leap 1 day ticket"
    Does it do for bus and train and tram, or just bus and train, or just bus and tram - or does such a thing even exist?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    what is a "Leap 1 day ticket"
    Does it do for bus and train and tram, or just bus and train, or just bus and tram - or does such a thing even exist?

    What he is saying is that this is the way forward - it hasn't happened as such yet.

    Period passes are only beginning to be loaded onto LEAP, but will start with annual passes.

    There isn't a one day ticket that covers all three options, but single mode and bi-mode tickets are available.

    All of the following 1 day tickets have been available from ticket outlets or TVMs as appropriate for many years:

    Bus only (Adult / Family)
    Rail only (Adult / Family)
    LUAS only (Adult / Child)
    Bus/Rail (Adult / Family)
    Bus/Luas (Adult / Child)
    Rail/Luas (Adult)


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