Reform Alliance - Was this a tactical mistake

stmol32 · 03-06-2014 11:05am #1

I hope this is the right forum for this question as it's really more to do with political tactics than theory.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-political-party-plans-to-recruit-independents-1.1818137

I would have thought the new party should have been in place before the Local/European elections and should have aggressively pursued seats at the expense of the government.

Am I alone in thinking this was a ridiculously squandered opportunity from a group who wishes to represent the disaffected.

It seems to be so wrong that I can't help thinking they waited on purpose to see what would happen, any thoughts or am I missing something obvious here.

fly_agaric · 03-06-2014 11:03pm

stmol32 wrote: »

I hope this is the right forum for this question as it's really more to do with political tactics than theory.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-political-party-plans-to-recruit-independents-1.1818137

I would have thought the new party should have been in place before the Local/European elections and should have aggressively pursued seats at the expense of the government.

Am I alone in thinking this was a ridiculously squandered opportunity from a group who wishes to represent the disaffected.

It seems to be so wrong that I can't help thinking they waited on purpose to see what would happen, any thoughts or am I missing something obvious here.

There's a couple of possible errors in your logic.

Do they wish to appeal to typical "protest voters" of Local/Euro elections who went for independents? I'm not so sure?
More "outraged of Blackrock" [who probably still voted for FG (or FF)] I'd think?:pac:

Also while they might be attracted to European seats, I can't see local seats and the work of a county councillor holding much attraction for those who might be "Reform alliance" td candidates in future.

gandalf · 03-06-2014 11:13pm

They need to decide what they stand for. At the moment they seem to be pissed off Right Wing FG members. If they can ditch the religious side I think they could get some real traction here in Ireland. If they persist with the Catholic ethos then I they will just be a marginal party whose appeal will diminish with time as their supporters die out.

A true economic and social liberal party could do quite in Ireland. I don't believe the leading lights of the Reform Alliance represent this.

Idbatterim · 04-06-2014 12:32am

I really hope they form, sounds a lot better than anything else we have at the moment. The more time goes on, the more and more disillusioned I am becoming with FG and I certainly would never contemplate voting for the other parties... IF they could form a coalition with FG, we might start getting somewhere.

At the moment they seem to be pissed off Right Wing FG members

at the moment I am a pissed off FG voter...

Phoebas · 04-06-2014 7:21am

What is their 'reform' agenda?
They look more like a conservative party to me.

Sources in the movement say the new party will adopt a liberal economic agenda emphasising budgetary discipline and free market policies, along with a commitment not to apply the party whip on issues of conscience.

What's an 'issue of conscience'? Would cutting medical card entitlements be an 'issue of conscience'?

Loafing Oaf · 04-06-2014 12:16pm

gandalf wrote: »

They need to decide what they stand for. At the moment they seem to be pissed off Right Wing FG members. If they can ditch the religious side I think they could get some real traction here in Ireland. If they persist with the Catholic ethos then I they will just be a marginal party whose appeal will diminish with time as their supporters die out.

A true economic and social liberal party could do quite in Ireland. I don't believe the leading lights of the Reform Alliance represent this.

Well considering they broke with FG on the abortion issue, I don't think its reasonable to expect them to emerge as a 'socially liberal' party. Although they do seem to be soft-pedalling that aspect of their platform with this talk of 'free votes on issues of conscience'. Presumably the pro-lifers would want a new party to make it its mission to overturn the Protection of Life in Pregnancy Bill, and I'd imagine Lucinda is savvy enough to know that's a fool's errand.

For Forks Sake · 04-06-2014 5:51pm

Phoebas wrote: »

What is their 'reform' agenda?
They look more like a conservative party to me.

What's an 'issue of conscience'?

Presumably an attempt to deflect from the fact that they all appear to be old-school catholic, anti-choice types?

porsche959 · 04-06-2014 5:55pm

They are basically a right wing Thatcherite type party with a conservative social ideology. Reaction Party would be more appropriate than Reform Party as a name. Or the "Traditional Ireland" party (there is a Traditional Britain group in the UK, I kid you not.)

porsche959 · 04-06-2014 5:58pm

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Presumably an attempt to deflect from the fact that they all appear to be old-school catholic, anti-choice types?

I can assume the idea is to pick up generalised dis-affected voters who want to register a protest vote but aren't bothered about looking at a party's policies before they vote for it. How big that constituency is, I wouldn't care to guess at. It's not exactly the basis for a long term vote is all I'd say.

Loafing Oaf · 04-06-2014 6:02pm

porsche959 wrote: »

They are basically a right wing Thatcherite type party with a conservative social ideology.

Even if true (and I would question whether they would actually turn out to be much more socially conservative in practice than FF or FG) I don't think it is necessarily incompatible with political reform as commonly understood. I don't see why a right-wing party should not be serious about capping TDs' pay, setting time limits on serving in Cabinet etc.

porsche959 · 04-06-2014 7:09pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Even if true (and I would question whether they would actually turn out to be much more socially conservative in practice than FF or FG) I don't think it is necessarily incompatible with political reform as commonly understood. I don't see why a right-wing party should not be serious about capping TDs' pay, setting time limits on serving in Cabinet etc.

In theory, sure, but I just think the various left wing parties have those kinds of issues sewn up in this country.

Labarbapostiza · 04-06-2014 9:39pm

Phoebas wrote: »

What is their 'reform' agenda?
They look more like a conservative party to me.

An ultra clueless conservative party.......Upper-middle-class sense of victimhood and entitlement.

They're cretins.

Led by Lucinda Cretin........That's how you spell it, isn't it?

What's an 'issue of conscience'?

If it feels good, do it.

Chucky the tree · 04-06-2014 10:30pm

I think these elections would have been to early for them to realistically attempt to go for.

PopePalpatine · 05-06-2014 12:41pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Presumably the pro-lifers would want a new party to make it its mission to overturn the Protection of Life in Pregnancy Bill, and I'd imagine Lucinda is savvy enough to know that's a fool's errand.

You'd wonder why they didn't try to join Fianna Fáil. :pac:

petronius · 05-06-2014 7:57pm

I think to get any traction they need to expand beyond their recently former FG base getting someone like Stephen Donnelly or Shane Ross(old FG) or Marc Coleman ideally a former FF-er would be very helpful
They need to appeal to middle ireland who havent forgiven fianna fail and are angry at FG and Labour for what they have done, but who would still be shy about voting sinn fein

comongethappy · 05-06-2014 8:24pm

petronius wrote: »

I think to get any traction they need to expand beyond their recently former FG base getting someone like Stephen Donnelly or Shane Ross(old FG) or Marc Coleman ideally a former FF-er would be very helpful
They need to appeal to middle ireland who havent forgiven fianna fail and are angry at FG and Labour for what they have done, but who would still be shy about voting sinn fein

I can't see Donnelly being enamoured with an ultra-religious group.

petronius · 05-06-2014 8:50pm

No but a center or right of center party would be more in tune with him and have the actual possibility of power
He would i think be more concerned if he would have to share constituency with a running mate from the new party

comongethappy · 05-06-2014 8:55pm

petronius wrote: »

No but a center or right of center party would be more in tune with him and have the actual possibility of power
He would i think be more concerned if he would have to share constituency with a running mate from the new party

But there is nothing libertarian/centre right in Lucinda's gang that matches Donnelly.
Their sole objective is their faith, their only issue, foetuses.

Concerning all else, they are mute..... Not the thing of consensus building.

Plus, old Billy in Wicklow is nothing to fear.
Donnelly is more than likely to top the poll there.

nesf · 05-06-2014 11:08pm

Is it just me or was that essentially a promise to be like the early PDs but with someone very, very far from Des O'Malley leading the charge?

Bleh. Right ideas, wrong people.

quadrifoglio verde · 05-06-2014 11:19pm

Always thought their name choice was a bit on the idiot side. How is protecting the status quo (right wing social policy such as abortion and gay marriage) reform?
Id vote tomorrow for a right of centre economic part thats left of centre on stuff such as abortion, gay marriage, freedom of choice etc. tomorrow and id guess a lot of middle class and upper class Ireland would as well. It isn't just the working class who are pro choice.
At the moment, there is no party out there for me to vote for, as a result I default to Fine Gael as Id find them the best of a bad bunch. SF = no, Labour = No, extreme left = No, Independents = No (as you don't know what you're getting), FF (Feck off).

nesf · 05-06-2014 11:21pm

They promise to reform the reform perhaps?

petronius · 06-06-2014 11:33am

The key for any new party is momentum and for the Reform Alliance or in the past the PD's, CnaP an election can happen too soon
The PDs while successful the first time out perhaps had too many candidates and didnt maximise their potential.
Dev in 1948 stunted clann by an early election and increased dail by calling an early election.

For R.A. to have been successful they would have needed candidates and targeted in a way in areas they could win seats and ultimately if the plan is to run for the Dail next time they need potential candidates in winnable dail constituencies and foot soldiers a network of canvassers to put them in contention. Running this time round would have been a disaster and would have been seen as such and stopped it in its tracks

petronius · 06-06-2014 4:00pm

I think David Hall (Dublin West / Irish Mortgage Holders Org) would be an excellent recruit to a new party.
I feel he may see if going alone is better than with a new party though.

comongethappy · 06-06-2014 5:11pm

petronius wrote: »

I think David Hall (Dublin West / Irish Mortgage Holders Org) would be an excellent recruit to a new party.
I feel he may see if going alone is better than with a new party though.

David "we should all own a black" Hall?

Depends on his stance vis-a-vis foetuses.
That is their raison d'etre after all.

I can't see it attracting many potential candidates.

petronius · 07-06-2014 10:26am

I think the likes of Donnelly, Hall, Ross who would largely agree with the RA on economic issues, and all be in favour different ways of dealing with mortgage distress and stimulating the economy

I think the plan is to have a free vote on matters of conscience - something which the now RA members (and other members of FG and SF) wanted and FF allowed.

comongethappy · 07-06-2014 10:28am

petronius wrote: »

I think the likes of Donnelly, Hall, Ross who would largely agree with the RA on economic issues, and all be in favour different ways of dealing with mortgage distress and stimulating the economy

I think the plan is to have a free vote on matters of conscience - something which the now RA members (and other members of FG and SF) wanted and FF allowed.

What is or isn't a matter of conscience?

What is the RA's economic policy?

petronius · 07-06-2014 10:50am

I certainly think Abortion Legislation is a mater of conscience - and a new party who make such issues and not bully their members like Fine Gael did (and Sinn Fein did) is a good tactical move

Back to the actual theme of the thread
I think not running candidates in the recent election was also a good move, since being unprepared and running just for the sake of it would have been a mistake and not waiting until the party is founded properly and has momentum.

comongethappy · 07-06-2014 11:52am

petronius wrote: »

I certainly think Abortion Legislation is a mater of conscience - and a new party who make such issues and not bully their members like Fine Gael did (and Sinn Fein did) is a good tactical move

Back to the actual theme of the thread
I think not running candidates in the recent election was also a good move, since being unprepared and running just for the sake of it would have been a mistake and not waiting until the party is founded properly and has momentum.

So it does go back to foetuses & only foetuses.

An 'issue of conscience' must surely cover more than the unborn?

And I see no evidence that the RA have any kind of centre-right/balanced budget type ideals vis-a-vis government spending..... I'm unsure howDonnelly (who isn't particularly populist) fits in?

Personally I think the last election should have at least laid down some sort of marker.

Labarbapostiza · 07-06-2014 4:34pm

nesf wrote: »

Is it just me or was that essentially a promise to be like the early PDs but with someone very, very far from Des O'Malley leading the charge?

For a long time there has been a tension in FG and FF. A dialectic between the urban and agricultural of each party.

Though both may be right-wing, the ideologies, especially over time, have become radically different.

The agricultural are simply happy with the promise of money being pumped from the urban population in the form of agricultural subsidies (If you've noticed there has been no austerity measures for farmers or even the suggestion of - in the European elections both FG and FF candidates appeared in election literature enrobed in agricultural wear; wellington boots, wax jackets, standing in a field, with a sheep dog photoshopped into the picture). Pork barrel infrastructure projects, etc. But for them foetuses are a very big deal. They're fiercely opposed to abortion. Not that they really care for foetuses. They're more concerned that unsanctioned sexual activity presents a threat to agricultural social and economic order. They would prefer mother and babies homes, where young women would receive exemplary punishment; <I>pour encourager les autres</I> - and the products of sinfulness to be exported; with identities erased to the point they may have no future legal claim over agricultural property. Wastage, liquidated through neglect and flushed down into a septic tank. Talk about skeletons in the cupboard.

The urban right are very different in that they want a smaller state so they can pay less tax. They're conservative in the sense they wish to maintain the social and economic exclusions that allow them to have more money in the first place. But the interests of the agricultural to a certain extent stand in the way of them actualising their desires. Abortion; they're queasy about the deal being done on Irish soil but that is the size of it.

FF and FG have a big problem. If they are over-identified by the urban population as being agricultural parties, they could be fatally marginalised. But it does open up quite a large space for a PD style party.

ArmaniJeanss · 07-06-2014 4:48pm

'Matters of conscience' is such a farce of a phrase. Like surely everything is a matter of conscience when it comes down to it, whether its the minimum wage, social welfare, departmental cuts, tax increases, foreign diplomacy with various regimes, european integration et al.

At least have the guts to replace 'issues of conscience' with 'issues with what women do with their reproductive systems' as everyone can see thats what it means.

nesf · 07-06-2014 6:29pm

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

For a long time there has been a tension in FG and FF. A dialectic between the urban and agricultural of each party.

Though both may be right-wing, the ideologies, especially over time, have become radically different.

The agricultural are simply happy with the promise of money being pumped from the urban population in the form of agricultural subsidies (If you've noticed there has been no austerity measures for farmers or even the suggestion of - in the European elections both FG and FF candidates appeared in election literature enrobed in agricultural wear; wellington boots, wax jackets, standing in a field, with a sheep dog photoshopped into the picture). Pork barrel infrastructure projects, etc. But for them foetuses are a very big deal. They're fiercely opposed to abortion. Not that they really care for foetuses. They're more concerned that unsanctioned sexual activity presents a threat to agricultural social and economic order. They would prefer mother and babies homes, where young women would receive exemplary punishment; <I>pour encourager les autres</I> - and the products of sinfulness to be exported; with identities erased to the point they may have no future legal claim over agricultural property. Wastage, liquidated through neglect and flushed down into a septic tank. Talk about skeletons in the cupboard.

The urban right are very different in that they want a smaller state so they can pay less tax. They're conservative in the sense they wish to maintain the social and economic exclusions that allow them to have more money in the first place. But the interests of the agricultural to a certain extent stand in the way of them actualising their desires. Abortion; they're queasy about the deal being done on Irish soil but that is the size of it.

FF and FG have a big problem. If they are over-identified by the urban population as being agricultural parties, they could be fatally marginalised. But it does open up quite a large space for a PD style party.

I'm not sure how to respond to that unless I replace the word urban there with Dublin.

Labarbapostiza · 07-06-2014 7:39pm

nesf wrote: »

I'm not sure how to respond to that unless I replace the word urban there with Dublin.

There is far more than one big town in Ireland.

nesf · 07-06-2014 9:02pm

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

There is far more than one big town in Ireland.

No, but your separation is too simplistic to cover the actual urban/rural divide in the country which is much more complicated than this. Never mind the regional divides.

emo72 · 07-06-2014 9:12pm

jaysus theres nothing reforming about creighton and her ilk. "reform alliance"? i'd rather they were the "rebel alliance" and this time i would be rooting for darth vader.

Labarbapostiza · 07-06-2014 9:56pm

nesf wrote: »

No, but your separation is too simplistic to cover the actual urban/rural divide in the country which is much more complicated than this. Never mind the regional divides.

Not going to get into the minutiae. Of course it's not that simple, but the urban/agricultural divide, in terms of politics, has been growing. Conservative parties project themselves as having a congruous single ideology. But, when it comes to it - the difference in message and how constituents are represented is radically different. In the agricultural dominated constituencies, the agricultural people are promised their way of life will be protected, no expense spared; the promise of big state. In urban areas, the urban conservatives are given a completely different message; one of reducing the state, letting the market decide. You can't have jam on both sides of your bread, can you.

Irish politics has also become incredibly fluid. FG could be facing a FF style wipe out.

Sierra Oscar · 07-06-2014 10:01pm

A party that is made up of people that believe the government is not going far enough with its cutbacks and attacks on services was never going to take off.

comongethappy · 07-06-2014 10:04pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

A party that is made up of people that believe the government is not going far enough with its cutbacks and attacks on services was never going to take off.

Was that their opinion?

I heard the opposite from Timmons on the radio..... He was of the more usual, 'cuts bad, taxes bad' persuasion.

Supup · 07-06-2014 10:43pm

Lucinda got herself pregnant. Without her the RA is like the Abortion trade without Marie Stopes.

benway · 08-06-2014 5:44pm

petronius wrote: »

Marc Coleman ideally a former FF-er would be very helpful

To be fair, Coleman's a walking punchline and I'm not sure how bringing on board a Soldier of Destiny would help sell the "reform" agenda?

petronius wrote: »

I think David Hall (Dublin West / Irish Mortgage Holders Org) would be an excellent recruit to a new party.
I feel he may see if going alone is better than with a new party though.

He'll end up with Fianna Fáil as soon as he figures he can get away with it.

Seems to me that the Indo has been pushing Crouton and her "rebel" friends hard since the issue of conscience ... and before, that I think of it. Looks like they fancy her to be "our" Thatcher. Well, maybe we don't want or need a Thatcher, thank you very much.

The whole thing has been a shambles from the start, when you look at the inauspicious beginnings, the motley crew that's involved, the Mulder and Scully style will-they-won't-they between Cretin and Grupenfuhrer McDowell, the damp squib that was the pre-locals monstrous meeting, the failure to get their act together / garner sufficient interest to get a few candidates going in said locals or Europeans ...

Turns my stomach that someone who flat out lied repeatedly in the Dáil around the issue of conscience is trying to take the moral high ground in that regard.

Also think the electoral demand for a PD / looney right / free marketeer party is greatly exaggerated - after all, we had one, which only secured more than 10 seats in its first election, with dwindling returns as people copped on to what they really were about.

Granted, they did enjoy influence way above and beyond their mandate: looks like the same meeja cheerleaders who facilitated this haven't learnt their lesson.

nesf · 08-06-2014 6:47pm

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Not going to get into the minutiae. Of course it's not that simple, but the urban/agricultural divide, in terms of politics, has been growing. Conservative parties project themselves as having a congruous single ideology. But, when it comes to it - the difference in message and how constituents are represented is radically different. In the agricultural dominated constituencies, the agricultural people are promised their way of life will be protected, no expense spared; the promise of big state. In urban areas, the urban conservatives are given a completely different message; one of reducing the state, letting the market decide. You can't have jam on both sides of your bread, can you.

Irish politics has also become incredibly fluid. FG could be facing a FF style wipe out.

Not only are you making crass generalistions which make little sense, you're also completely overlooking the main pillar of agricultural support which is CAP which is not and Irish Government issue but an EU one, and not one which Ireland holds huge sway over (France is the main force behind the high CAP payments, the UK wants to see them cut etc).

Labarbapostiza · 09-06-2014 5:27pm

nesf wrote: »

Not only are you making crass generalistions which make little sense,

The general case is the general case. Exceptions do not invalidate the general case.

Okay. A FF or FG representative is not going to go on RTE, and say in the same breath; austerity, austerity, and more austerity for the urban people, but loads more free stuff for the agricultural people. No. But if you look up where Hugh Coveney has spoken, where the audience was agricultural people, his message for that audience, was he's battling for more free stuff for the them. No mention of austerity or the free market.

you're also completely overlooking the main pillar of agricultural support which is CAP which is not and Irish Government issue but an EU one, and not one which Ireland holds huge sway over (France is the main force behind the high CAP payments, the UK wants to see them cut etc).

The way you make it sound is the Irish neo-liberals travel to Europe, and they are silenced by French communists. They want to shout at the top of their lungs for an end to CAP subsidies but the French gag them.

The FF and FG candidates canvass for Europe on the basis that they will fight for more free stuff for the agricultural people. Not the message on the Dublin doorsteps.

There isn't anything unique in the Irish arrangement. Or that the French are standing in the way of the market. All the EU countries try to break the rules and give more than the CAP to their farmers. Nigel Farage, the supposed free marketer of the UKIP has said, that the CAP is a brilliant idea, and if Britain left the EU, British farmers should receive CAP payments from central government.

Milton Friedman, very much beloved of the right - who are very selective in which parts of Friedman they take, usually perversely inverting the bits they've selected, to defend the kind of protectionism and government interference he was staunchly against. Friedman said that agricultural subsidies were the worst government interventions of them all.

The average middle-class urban American believes that American corn farmers are hardy folk, out in all weather, tending their land. And that these people deserve interventions and protection. The American corn farmer works at the very most just a few weeks of the year. Probably if he wants more money he can trim other farmers hedgerows for the council, as happens elsewhere.

nesf · 09-06-2014 6:52pm

Are you actually surprised/complaining about politicians saying what their audience wants to hear to them?

petronius · 10-06-2014 2:31pm

Back to the actual thread (ignoring the pro-abortionists, and anti-FF and anti-FG tangents).

I think it was tactically correct to sit the locals and euro elections out this time, since they don't have a defined platform of policies and candidates, and they don't have the foot soldiers and network in place.

benway · 10-06-2014 9:31pm

petronius wrote: »

Back to the actual thread (ignoring the pro-abortionists, and anti-FF and anti-FG tangents).

Not much of a strategy, given that according to Milward Brown 90%+ of the population count as "pro-abortionists" by Cretin's reckoning. Then again, the Rebel Alliance will allegedly be a happy home for "pro-abortionists" of conscience too, right?

But seeing as you mention it, here's a woman of conscience speaking:

Lucy Goosey wrote:

We have all been repeatedly told that we must include the suicide clause, against all of the medical evidence, in order to satisfy the X case test. However, this legislation ignores a very recent Supreme Court case and indeed a range of developments in that court in recent times. I draw Members' attention to the case of Cosma v. the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform from 2006, in which a woman sought that her deportation order be quashed on the grounds that if she were to be deported she would commit suicide. She argued that an action by the State should not be allowed to occur because she felt suicidal. The finding in that case is now the binding test laid down by the Supreme Court and I ask Members to pay attention, please, as I outline it...

On the Cosma reading of the X case, section 9 would fail to meet the necessary standard because it does not require evidence of a treatment plan or consideration of other means of avoiding the risk to life of the mother, and does not take into account, as the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform insisted we should, the public policy arguments that are relevant in assessing claims of suicidality.

This is not to mention the medical evidence. If we value the X case so much, which I argue is an obiter dicta judgment, how can we ignore this very specific and refined test urged by the Minister in the case of Cosma v.Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? It is an entirely contradictory position and a position of convenience to suggest that the threat of suicide of a person at risk of deportation, who may be an inconvenience to the State, is not entertained but in other circumstances it is. It is entirely inconsistent, contradictory and hypocritical. Selective constitutional interpretation is happening in the Department of Health.

Wow, what is this landmark Supreme Court judgment that everyone missed? What test did the highest court in the land lay down? It's a funny thing, because there's literally nothing in the SC judgment that's relevant to the matter at issue. Nothing. At. All.

Well, maybe she got her courts confused. What about the High Court, then? Hanna J said this:

It seems to me that the circumstances of this applicant contrast significantly with the D and Soering cases or the X case, all of which dealt with a very real and substantial (in the D case certain) risk of death were the deportation to occur. Indeed, of all of the European Court of Human Rights and United Kingdom cases cited none of them deal with a bare threat of suicide in response to a threat of deportation.

Oh.

Now, Crouton is a qualified barrister (not that it means all that much these days). She is also, presumably, literate.

Which leads unerringly to the conclusion that the lady's either a liar or an incompetent. Take your pick.

And I won't even start on the "medical evidence". Sorry for the rant, needed to get that off my chest ... this "conscience" bluster makes my blood boil.

petronius wrote: »

I think it was tactically correct to sit the locals and euro elections out this time, since they don't have a defined platform of policies and candidates, and they don't have the foot soldiers and network in place.

And what better way to get a party machine up and running than testing the waters? Maybe convince a sure-fire councillor or two to come on board?

I'd say that it was a huge mistake not to strike while the iron was at least tepid - Walsh and Timmins have now gone back to FG, it's expected that Flanagan and Fiddy will follow (if they'll have her), leaving Cretin and her meeja cheerleaders, which is all the "party" is or ever will be.

Reform Alliance - Was this a tactical mistake

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