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Punishing Labour = Empowering Fine Gael

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  • 12-10-2013 7:15pm
    #1
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭


    A lot of people on the left are obviously very hurt and disillusioned about the direction the Labour Party has taken since February 2011.

    Anecdotally, with some confirmation from the polls, they plan either not to vote at the next election, or if they do vote they will not be voting for the other left parliamentary party, Sinn Féin.

    I find this extremely difficult to understand.

    Do people who plan on punishing Labour for their volte face not understand that they are going to achieve nothing except, possibly, equip Fine Gael with an overall majority.

    Many Labour supporters - mind bogglingly - refuse to support Sinn Féin, and opt instead for independents. This achieves even less. At least if they voted Sinn Féin there would be some semblance of a left wing opposition party, and the prospect of overtaking Fianna Fáil.

    Are ex-labour voters just stupid?


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    #2
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Maybe ex labour voters are just like ex FF voters, sickened by how the party have behaved in government...and are slowly beginning to realise how rotten the political establishment is, in which case it makes no difference who we vote for we get the same government anyway...

    I used to think that a vote for independents was a waste of time, I now believe that a vote for independents will limit the damage the mainstream parties can do...


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    #3
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    Many Labour supporters - mind bogglingly - refuse to support Sinn Féin, and opt instead for independents. This achieves even less. At least if they voted Sinn Féin there would be some semblance of a left wing opposition party, and the prospect of overtaking Fianna Fáil.

    Are ex-labour voters just stupid?

    Why is it mind bogginlgy? SF are just a bunch of demagogues promising the impossible. As bad as a person may think of Labour, I think its perfectly understandable that they wouldn't want to vote for SF or the united left alliance.


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    #4
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Maybe ex labour voters are just like ex FF voters, sickened by how the party have behaved in government...and are slowly beginning to realise how rotten the political establishment is, in which case it makes no difference who we vote for we get the same government anyway...

    I used to think that a vote for independents was a waste of time, I now believe that a vote for independents will limit the damage the mainstream parties can do...

    Personally I think independents are the worst of Irish pot-hole politics. Most tend to talk about only about local issues at national elections. I personally have no issue with independents at local elections though where it makes more sense.


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    #5
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    sarumite wrote: »
    Why is it mind bogginlgy? SF are just a bunch of demagogues promising the impossible. As bad as a person may think of Labour, I think its perfectly understandable that they wouldn't want to vote for SF or the united left alliance.

    I disagree. Nevertheless, the purpose of voting SF is to provide some strong left voice in the House; not to implement policy.

    We have to resign ourselves to the fact that the next Government will be some combination of Fine Gael, a much reduced Labour party, or maybe Fianna Fáil. There is a chance it might be FG-Inds, but Independents in Ireland are notorious parochialists.

    So in the absence of a strong-handed Labour Party, the next most sensible thing to do is to provide a strong left-wing opposition.

    Voting for your local Fianna Fáil renegade or general misfit (which is most independents) is counter-productive. So too is staying away on polling day, either one of which I think a lot of ex Labour supporters plan on doing.


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    #6
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    sarumite wrote: »
    Personally I think independents are the worst of Irish pot-hole politics. Most tend to talk about only about local issues at national elections. I personally have no issue with independents at local elections though where it makes more sense.

    All the main parties/politicians talk about local issues at elections...the manifestos are just pure guff...I don't disagree with you by the way...independents are not the way forward...but who actually believes that the current mainstream parties are the way forward, our system as it stands doesn't allow for anything but pot-hole politicians...


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    #7
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Labour are a disgrace, more a cult than a party at the moment.
    Voting for anyone else, regardless of who it empowers would be better than voting for the cult of Gilmore.


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    #8
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I disagree. Nevertheless, the purpose of voting SF is to provide some strong left voice in the House; not to implement policy.

    We have to resign ourselves to the fact that the next Government will be some combination of Fine Gael, a much reduced Labour party, or maybe Fianna Fáil. There is a chance it might be FG-Inds, but Independents in Ireland are notorious parochialists.

    So in the absence of a strong-handed Labour Party, the next most sensible thing to do is to provide a strong left-wing opposition.

    Voting for your local Fianna Fáil renegade or general misfit (which is most independents) is counter-productive. So too is staying away on polling day, either one of which I think a lot of ex Labour supporters plan on doing.

    I don't think Irish politics lacks leftwing politicians.


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    #9
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    All the main parties/politicians talk about local issues at elections...the manifestos are just pure guff...I don't disagree with you by the way...independents are not the way forward...but who actually believes that the current mainstream parties are the way forward, our system as it stands doesn't allow for anything but pot-hole politicians...

    At least FG or Labour SF and FF as parties have a national agenda, even if their individual TDs campaign on local issues. You can't have a government with indenpendents and when you do they tend to be worst elements of the government, just look at healy rae etc


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    #10
    pajor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭pajor


    Come next election I know I won't be voting Labour again, (1,2 votes I don't mind saying). But vote SF? History is a cruel mistress and my conscience won't allow it. Reasonably sound left wing principles aren't any even a touch on a reason for me to vote for them.

    For me though, sitting on my arse on polling day isn't an option either though.

    Also, I don't think all independents can be ridiculed, the likes of Tony Gregory spring to mind.


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    #11
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    pajor wrote: »
    Also, I don't think all independents can be ridiculed, the likes of Tony Gregory spring to mind.

    That was 31 years ago, and it was very much a parochialist deal.

    Just because we agree with his parochialism doesn't stop it from being parochialism.

    Independents are a waste of time, as regards national policy.


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    #12
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That was 31 years ago, and it was very much a parochialist deal.

    Just because we agree with his parochialism doesn't stop it from being parochialism.

    Independents are a waste of time, as regards national policy.

    Shane Ross?


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    #13
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,285 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Maybe ex labour voters are just like ex FF voters, sickened by how the party have behaved in government...and are slowly beginning to realise how rotten the political establishment is, in which case it makes no difference who we vote for we get the same government anyway.
    So, FF screw up the country with unsustainable populist policies, FG and Labour try to put it back together using financial prudence. How is this the same thing?


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    #14
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    What do people expect when parties go into a coalition government. There are going to be compromises left right and centre. We actually got the worst result with the last election, a single party government would have been far more decisive and probably would have us far further down the path of reform.

    I have no sympathy for Labour given they campaign to go into coalition to keep FG in check and from their supporters perspective they have failed and they are now going to be punished. The nightmare scenario is they let the financial illiterates in SF into Government with FF which would be an absolute disaster for the country.


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    #15
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    A lot of people on the left are obviously very hurt and disillusioned about the direction the Labour Party has taken since February 2011.

    Anecdotally, with some confirmation from the polls, they plan either not to vote at the next election, or if they do vote they will not be voting for the other left parliamentary party, Sinn Féin.
    Surely this is the perpetual problem with Labour? With the fairly broad (on the political spectrum) appeal of FF (at least in the past) soaking up much of the support that Labour might otherwise have gained, Labour’s only opportunity in government was always as the junior partner with a centre right party. Those that vote for them never seem to allow for this pragmatic reality.

    Why won’t the vote for SF? IMO, because SF still have their old soldiers to the forefront of the party and many have not forgotten or forgiven what they have done. When the likes of Doherty & McDonald become the principle figures, and not Adams & McGuinness, there might be more who would be prepared to consider them.

    Another reason is that SF are much too far to the left for Irish tastes. Look at where Rabbitte & Gilmore were 30 years ago and how much they moved towards the centre. Had they stayed there they would likely have become mostly irrelevant like Boyd-Barret & Higgins.
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Are ex-labour voters just stupid?
    I would say principled. But maybe that's the same thing?


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    #16
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Another thread posing as a let's all vote for Sinn Fein thread.

    Sinn Fein is not a left-wing party. It is a populist party just like FF.

    At least with parties like FG, Labour, PDs, Greens, ULA etc., you are voting for parties with an element of political principle.


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    #17
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Shane Ross?
    Dublin South Clientalism

    What are Ross's policies on CAP reform, on local health services outside of major urban centers... I find it odd that I only ever heard him talking abour rural Garda station closures when Stepaside station closed; he was up in arms about that, there was not a peep out of him when Cloghane Station closed in West Kerry and where some deplorable crimes took place soon after.

    Why should there have been? The man is a local politician. It just so happens that his locale care a lot about 'big issues' like the Eircome debacle, and public sector waste, they being the squeezed middle urban class.
    Painted Pony wrote: »
    Why won’t the vote for SF? IMO, because SF still have their old soldiers to the forefront of the party and many have not forgotten or forgiven what they have done. When the likes of Doherty & McDonald become the principle figures, and not Adams & McGuinness, there might be more who would be prepared to consider them.
    I agree with you PP. I'd say Labour voters today, especially those over the age of 45, have a deep resentment toward Sinn Féin and associate them with the bygone days. As a left leaning people, they may be more animated in their oppositin to Sinn Féin, who have always been an enemy (especially in urban centers). SF are still a novelty in many rural areas where Labour were never in contention for a seat, and there is no recent history of animosity toward them in those places. That is where SF will make gains.
    Godge wrote: »
    Another thread posing as a let's all vote for Sinn Fein thread.
    oh give it a rest will you


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    #18
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,062 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    This thread is possibly indicative of an opening in the market for a new centre-left party featuring Shortall and other Labour rebels, along with the likes of Catherine Murphy.


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    #19
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    gandalf wrote: »
    What do people expect when parties go into a coalition government. There are going to be compromises left right and centre. We actually got the worst result with the last election, a single party government would have been far more decisive and probably would have us far further down the path

    I think that if Richard burton won the surge against Kenny FG would have swept into power as a majority government. But the party kept Kenny because what they really like more than running the economy properly and with integrity is more duffness and jobs for the boys


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    #20
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    sarumite wrote: »
    At least FG or Labour SF and FF as parties have a national agenda, even if their individual TDs campaign on local issues. You can't have a government with indenpendents and when you do they tend to be worst elements of the government, just look at healy rae etc
    Victor wrote: »
    So, FF screw up the country with unsustainable populist policies, FG and Labour try to put it back together using financial prudence. How is this the same thing?

    You might be impressed by their national agenda, but I have my doubts as to their veracity...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAS0c5AkiNg

    What are Fg and Lab doing that is anyway different to FF, granted they don't have the same stink of corruption, but if you are impressed by the govt parties fair enough, I happen to have first hand experience on how our political establishment behaves at the lowest levels of society, I also happen to believe that there is no respect for taxpayers money at any level of government, that won't change no matter what mainstream party is in charge.

    A politician takes €50k in ink cartridges, everyone turns their back
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0228/314000-osnodaigha/

    Everyone claims full expenses during the month of August..
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tds-incur-more-than-500k-in-expenses-during-month-off-609382.html

    The subsided bar continues serving pints long into the night for thirsty TDs, an d no one deems it inappropriate...

    I know who screwed up this country, I'll never forget, it is MY opinion that from a policy point of view they are all the same...


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    #21
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Independents are a waste of time, as regards national policy.

    Tell that to Stephen Donnelly.


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    #22
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    You might be impressed by their national agenda, but I have my doubts as to their veracity...


    I'm generally more unimpressed by most indepedents lack of any viable national agenda.


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    #23
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    I think that if Richard burton won the surge against Kenny FG would have swept into power as a majority government. But the party kept Kenny because what they really like more than running the economy properly and with integrity is more duffness and jobs for the boys

    What makes you think that? Richard Bruton got his wings clipped after the heave and was made to look like a little boy in front of the national media. He is just crusing by in his current portfollio and to be honest I think the country dodged a bullet there with that one. People will continue to under estimate Enda but history will be kind to him.


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