Politics and Christianity

panda100 · 22-11-2007 7:04pm #1

I would be very intrested to know what political parties Christians/Catholics support here in Ireland and why?

Many friends/family of mine who are devout catholics support and vote Fianna Fail.I can never understand this considering how Fianna Fail allow the use of Shannon to the US allowing the mass killings of thousands in Iraq.On top of this Fianna fail are a party whose top priority is not for love and peace but for money and driving the economy forward. Their a party that want to privatise our health care in order to make money off the sick and the dying!The strong association between the Catholic church and the Fianna Fail party always baffles me.

I think The US really highlights the hypocrisy between religion and political leaning. Bush and the majority of his supporters portray themselves as God fearing,devout Christians. Yet their politics consists of war,destruction and greed for money. It always makes me very concerned that Christians in the US vote Bush cos he is against gay marriage or abortion yet are okay with him launching war and supporting brutal regimes overseas

To me it would seem that left parties such as the Socialist pary (of which I am a member) provide the most core Christian values in the sense that we belive in peace not war , putting people before money/profits, are agasint the endless enviromental destruction of the world and want to provide a real sustainable soloution to those in the developing world etc.

BrianCalgary · 22-11-2007 7:12pm

Not familiar with Irish politics.

Socialism is not necessarily Christian. I see socialism and have seen it operate bent on taking people money to support their pet causes.

Socialists in Canada stifle free speech when it disagrees with them yet yell for freedom of speech if they get shut up.

Bottom line: any political or economic system can be argued to be the best. The problem with each is the state of mans heart: being greedy and selfish and doing for persoanl gain only and not what is good for the community at large.

JimiTime · 22-11-2007 7:52pm

i don't vote.

Dave! · 22-11-2007 8:11pm

Probably best if only Christians vote!

PDN · 23-11-2007 12:00am

I would vote for an individual politician based on their policy positions and if I thought they seemed like a decent human being. I couldn't honestly express support for any political party.

Scofflaw · 23-11-2007 12:29am

PDN wrote: »

I would vote for an individual politician based on their policy positions and if I thought they seemed like a decent human being. I couldn't honestly express support for any political party.

The second statement appears to follow ineluctably from the first...

cordially,
Scofflaw

panda100 · 23-11-2007 1:37pm

SWP/people before profit

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Socialism is not necessarily Christian. .

Socialism undoubtly I would think has more core christian value then right wing capitalist parties that dominate worldwide?Perhaps I am wrong.is as Capitalist agenda more christian??

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I see socialism and have seen it operate bent on taking people money to support their pet causes..

Socialist parties in Irleand ask for fianancial support only from their supporters/members (unlike the RC church who recieves millions from the goverment in education funding and regularly ask for money for their pet causes) .We dont get money/bribes from big buisness etc like devout Chritians Bertie Ahern and Bush do. Jesus himslef overthrew the tables of moneylenders and extradaited them from the temple. Yet God fearing Christians Bush+Bertie refuse to drop the debt in developing world countries. And as for love thy enemies and forgiveness.......
The following that Bush has with Christains in America is just phenomenal. There was even prayers said during his inaguration as president! http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1463.cfm

PDN · 23-11-2007 7:12pm

panda100 wrote: »

The following that Bush has with Christains in America is just phenomenal. There was even prayers said during his inaguration as president!

For pity's sake! Why do people keep posting stuff without having a clue what they are talking about?

There have been prayers said at every inauguration of an American president since FDR's second inauguration in 1937.

PDN · 24-11-2007 12:01am

A prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.

The following that our TDs and Senators have with the Christians must be phenomenal!

Scofflaw · 24-11-2007 12:26am

PDN wrote: »

A prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.

The following that our TDs and Senators have with the Christians must be phenomenal!

They're evidently in someone's good graces, anyway. Nothing else explains their regular re-election.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Winters · 24-11-2007 3:04am

Should not vote for a party based on their religious beliefs but upton their merit and offerings. Because someone is a good and devout catholic does not mean they will be able to be a strong and good head of state for this country. Infact I would look upon it personally as a shortcoming, but thats my own belief.

People should decide upon their political beliefs not by their parents or religion but by what that party has to offer and what they do and can do for the locality.

condra · 24-11-2007 7:35am

The socialist party

DaveMcG wrote: »

Probably best if only Christians vote!

Why?

Dont atieists count as moral people with good intentions?

Dave! · 24-11-2007 12:11pm

Because it says in the OP, "I would be very intrested to know what political parties Christians/Catholics support here in Ireland and why?" and it has an accompanying poll. If non-Christians were to vote in the poll then it would not relate to the original question.

You see?

Don't know what you're getting at with the moral people stuff........

wolfsbane · 24-11-2007 4:02pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Not familiar with Irish politics.

Socialism is not necessarily Christian. I see socialism and have seen it operate bent on taking people money to support their pet causes.

Socialists in Canada stifle free speech when it disagrees with them yet yell for freedom of speech if they get shut up.

Bottom line: any political or economic system can be argued to be the best. The problem with each is the state of mans heart: being greedy and selfish and doing for persoanl gain only and not what is good for the community at large.

I have great sympathy with what Brian says. Many use Politics, like Religion, as a cloak for their selfish interests. Yes, there will be genuine people seeking to help mankind - but from what I've seen feathering their own nests comes first for many.

As some other poster pointed out, even well-intentioned people can do as much or worse damage than the self-interested: if the former has foolish policies or is incompetent with good policies, and if the latter has good policies well implemented (even though he takes a big rake-off).

So it means the voter has a lot of balancing of judgement to do. Any simplistic X Party is the moral choice notion should evaporate from thinking minds.

As someone pointed out, Bush &Co. enjoy big support from Evangelical and other religious folk in America. A lot of that is down to gullibility, believing their sloganizing about opposing abortion and spreading democracy in the world. But some of it is a well-considered response to the what they consider the even bigger threats to freedom posed by the Democrats. I personally know some very anti-Bush believers who would vote Republican for that very reason.

Being an Ulsterman, we have had much experience of politics up here. The mix of tribalism, morality, and economics have reached a new high of perplexity for the voter. Things were once fairly simple - the big factor (though not the only one) was tribal: Unionist or Nationalist. That developed into various strands of Uniosm and Nationalism: Ulster Unionist/Democratic Unionist and SDLP/SF, with several smaller extreme or centre parties.

With the new era, we are called on to decide how best our main concerns are served - and that may well mean voting in preference for those we would never have considered in the past. One missionary friend rang me from Africa the other night and in course of conversation told me how his Catholic family voted DUP and were very pleased by the intergrity of its local MLA. And I have voted for non-Unionists in the past.

moe_sizlak · 24-11-2007 9:48pm

Sinn Fein

panda100 wrote: »

I would be very intrested to know what political parties Christians/Catholics support here in Ireland and why?

Many friends/family of mine who are devout catholics support and vote Fianna Fail.I can never understand this considering how Fianna Fail allow the use of Shannon to the US allowing the mass killings of thousands in Iraq.On top of this Fianna fail are a party whose top priority is not for love and peace but for money and driving the economy forward. Their a party that want to privatise our health care in order to make money off the sick and the dying!The strong association between the Catholic church and the Fianna Fail party always baffles me.

I think The US really highlights the hypocrisy between religion and political leaning. Bush and the majority of his supporters portray themselves as God fearing,devout Christians. Yet their politics consists of war,destruction and greed for money. It always makes me very concerned that Christians in the US vote Bush cos he is against gay marriage or abortion yet are okay with him launching war and supporting brutal regimes overseas

To me it would seem that left parties such as the Socialist pary (of which I am a member) provide the most core Christian values in the sense that we belive in peace not war , putting people before money/profits, are agasint the endless enviromental destruction of the world and want to provide a real sustainable soloution to those in the developing world etc.

while im not one myself , anyone that knows anything about jesus knows that he was himself of the left politically , he spoke out against the rich and powerfull and aligned himself with the downtrodden

i dont know why your surprised that so called religous people in ireland and especially the usa support partys with right wing idealogys , this has always been the case , its a classic example of the hypocrosy of people , in the usa the rich are the ones who you see front and centre in church each week , then again you have to remember that in america , people often define how virtous you are by how rich you are , then again americans do havea pecular sense of morality compared to the rest of the world , while there are conservative free market capatilists the world over , only in the usa do that kind of people tend to be overtly christian , i once heard a commentator refer to theese people are neo christians

PDN · 24-11-2007 9:59pm

moe_sizlak wrote: »

while im not one myself , anyone that knows anything about jesus knows that he was himself of the left politically , he spoke out against the rich and powerfull and aligned himself with the downtrodden

i dont know why your surprised that so called religous people in ireland and especially the usa support partys with right wing idealogys , this has always been the case , its a classic example of the hypocrosy of people , in the usa the rich are the ones who you see front and centre in church each week , then again you have to remember that in america , people often define how virtous you are by how rich you are , then again americans do havea pecular sense of morality compared to the rest of the world , while there are conservative free market capatilists the world over , only in the usa do that kind of people tend to be overtly christian , i once heard a commentator refer to theese people are neo christians

Actually the section of US society which manifests the highest percentage of churchgoers are poor working-class Hispanics. The section of the US population with the second-highest percentage of church attendance are the African-Americans, who predominantly vote Democrat. Just watch your TV screens and I guarantee that as the election gets closer you will see Hillary Clinton in many a pulpit.

The idea of American Christians as predominantly right-wing, white, and Republican is an extremely simplistic misinterpretation of the US religious landscape. Your average rich white Republican is actually less likely to be seen in church than your average poor black Democrat, or than your average destitute Hispanic illegal immigrant.

Dirk Gently · 24-11-2007 10:33pm

A number of reasons why the church and devout followers are against socialism........

Marxism. Marx was very critical of religion, the opium of the masses. The church associates socialism with Marxism which it associates with atheism. Marxism is a critical analysis or society, capital and the modes of production. Critical thinking is not something which the church wishes to promote. As pointed out by another poster, the stories told of a man named jesus would indicate that he was a socialist however marxist socialism denounces organised religion and takes Gods, creators and invisible friends out of the equation.

Socialists are for the most part socially liberal, contraception, abortion, womens rights, secular government and so on. This runs against religious conservatism and erodes what the church promotes.

Religion as a mechanism for social order aligns itself with political elites. It aligns itself with those political elites which do not threaten its hold over people, namely conservative capitalist and where necessary further right as far as fascist leaders. The church is a tool, an ace card which can be played to counteract socialist leaning leaders. Capitalist leaders and the church will always join if there is a socialist threat.

It is logical to see the connection between socialism and the religious message of peace and helping the poor and also to see how neo-liberal economics run contrary to this but at the end of the day the church is a social movement (a club whose mission it is to get as many recruits as possible) which aligns itself with conservative leaders as this is it's best way to influence politics and its perceived social order.

There are varying types of socialism, Christian socialism being one but revolutionary socialism and Marxism which the socialist party stands for will never get the support of the church hierarchy even if some themes like peace and improving the lives of the poor are present. It’s all about power, wealth and the ability to order society according to conservative religious dogma. Joe Higgins himself studied to be a priest before seeing the light so to speak and then chose instead to follow a career in socialist politics instead as a better way of doing the work he wanted to do, i.e. improve the conditions of the poor, promote peace and equality and expose exploitation.

I am an atheist so I didn’t vote in your poll but given the choices if I was a devout Christian I suppose FG would represent the best choice, on the basis that they are the least unchristian party there.

panda100 · 25-11-2007 4:02pm

SWP/people before profit

Some intresting points.......

PDN wrote: »

For pity's sake! Why do people keep posting stuff without having a clue what they are talking about?
There have been prayers said at every inauguration of an American president since FDR's second inauguration in 1937
A prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.
The following that our TDs and Senators have with the Christians must be phenomenal!

An honest mistake I apologise. But you would have to be incredibly blind/naieve not to see the cosy relationship between our goverment/ capitalist parties across the world and the RC/Christian churches. The Church should be denouncing the use of Shannon ,they should be supporting t communities such as Rossport in Mayo, they should be supporting people who take a stand against war such as the Raynthon 9 in Derry. Yet the church remain silent or in the case of Rossport and the Raytheon 9 actually condemn action taken by protesters. Action that will result in peace! Does it not make you mad as a Chritian to see these supposed representatives of Jesus absolute blatant disgregard for Jesus teachings?

PDN wrote: »

Actually the section of US society which manifests the highest percentage of churchgoers are poor working-class Hispanics. The section of the US population with the second-highest percentage of church attendance are the African-Americans, who predominantly vote Democrat. Just watch your TV screens and I guarantee that as the election gets closer you will see Hillary Clinton in many a pulpit.
.

I dont count the working class hispanics/Irish in the US voting population as the vast majortiy are illegal imiigrants.
Also I have no doubt that every candidate in the US election race will be doing a trail of pulpits up and down the US . This proves that the religous in America are probably the most valuble vote because they make up a huge majority. This proves that it was the religous in America that voted in Bush. A man who as killed thousands in a relentless persuit for oil. I know If I was Jesus I would be incredibly pissed of to see my teachings so manipulated and abused constantly by people.

clown bag wrote: »

Marxism. Marx was very critical of religion, the opium of the masses. The church associates socialism with Marxism which it associates with atheism. Marxism is a critical analysis or society, capital and the modes of production. Critical thinking is not something which the church wishes to promote. As pointed out by another poster, the stories told of a man named jesus would indicate that he was a socialist however marxist socialism denounces organised religion and takes Gods, creators and invisible friends out of the equation.

Socialists are for the most part socially liberal, contraception, abortion, womens rights, secular government and so on. This runs against religious conservatism and erodes what the church promotes.

Religion as a mechanism for social order aligns itself with political elites. It aligns itself with those political elites which do not threaten its hold over people, namely conservative capitalist and where necessary further right as far as fascist leaders. The church is a tool, an ace card which can be played to counteract socialist leaning leaders. Capitalist leaders and the church will always join if there is a socialist threat.

It is logical to see the connection between socialism and the religious message of peace and helping the poor and also to see how neo-liberal economics run contrary to this but at the end of the day the church is a social movement (a club whose mission it is to get as many recruits as possible) which aligns itself with conservative leaders as this is it's best way to influence politics and its perceived social order.

.

Really good post Clownbag.You definatly hit the nail on the head. As someone who used to be a devout catholic my eyes were really opened to organised religon this summer. I was unable to take the continuing hypocrisy of the RC church in Irleand. If jesus was alive today and saw the wealth of the RC church,saw how they are in allignment with people like Bertie Ahern who cares only for money and power then Jesus would be disgusted.

mikemac · 25-11-2007 4:15pm

Labour

panda100 wrote: »

I would be very intrested to know what political parties Christians/Catholics support here in Ireland and why?

Many friends/family of mine who are devout catholics support and vote Fianna Fail.

Bertie Ahern is not divorced and having a relationship with another women he is not married to.
Yet devout Catholics still support him?

Now I don't care and neither do most Irish people but are your friends realy so devout if they pick and choose what parts of Catholism they value most?
A la carte Catholics is the term used afaik.

After all, Charles Stewart Parnell lost most of his support with Irish Catholic voters in the 19th century over the Kitty O'Shea divorce scandal.

But, in the 21st century, you're saying devout Catholics (your phrase, not mine) don't care?

moe_sizlak · 25-11-2007 5:22pm

Sinn Fein

clown bag wrote: »

A number of reasons why the church and devout followers are against socialism........

Marxism. Marx was very critical of religion, the opium of the masses. The church associates socialism with Marxism which it associates with atheism. Marxism is a critical analysis or society, capital and the modes of production. Critical thinking is not something which the church wishes to promote. As pointed out by another poster, the stories told of a man named jesus would indicate that he was a socialist however marxist socialism denounces organised religion and takes Gods, creators and invisible friends out of the equation.

Socialists are for the most part socially liberal, contraception, abortion, womens rights, secular government and so on. This runs against religious conservatism and erodes what the church promotes.

Religion as a mechanism for social order aligns itself with political elites. It aligns itself with those political elites which do not threaten its hold over people, namely conservative capitalist and where necessary further right as far as fascist leaders. The church is a tool, an ace card which can be played to counteract socialist leaning leaders. Capitalist leaders and the church will always join if there is a socialist threat.

It is logical to see the connection between socialism and the religious message of peace and helping the poor and also to see how neo-liberal economics run contrary to this but at the end of the day the church is a social movement (a club whose mission it is to get as many recruits as possible) which aligns itself with conservative leaders as this is it's best way to influence politics and its perceived social order.

There are varying types of socialism, Christian socialism being one but revolutionary socialism and Marxism which the socialist party stands for will never get the support of the church hierarchy even if some themes like peace and improving the lives of the poor are present. It’s all about power, wealth and the ability to order society according to conservative religious dogma. Joe Higgins himself studied to be a priest before seeing the light so to speak and then chose instead to follow a career in socialist politics instead as a better way of doing the work he wanted to do, i.e. improve the conditions of the poor, promote peace and equality and expose exploitation.

I am an atheist so I didn’t vote in your poll but given the choices if I was a devout Christian I suppose FG would represent the best choice, on the basis that they are the least unchristian party there.

i agree with much of this post , the biggest mistake communists ever made was denouncing religon

classic catholicism is authoritarian socilism , the pope,s politics are right wing on issues of morality but clearly socilist as regards economic issues

this is however much less the case with elements within the protestant denominations of christiianity

as regards the previous post the church attendance is highest among hispanic catholics and black southern protestants in the usa, this may well be the case but WASP southern republicans play a much bigger role politically in the republican party electoral stategy

remember the so called christian right in the usa are almost exclusivly WASP

Politics and Christianity

What party do you support? 10 votes

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